Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[blueeyes]

I agree that Jack hasn't come off smelling like roses in this whole thing. I think his character has suffered from writing that focusses on a situation that the writers know can never be fully resolved within Air Force regulations. As Sam's commanding officer, Jack simply CANNOT have a relationship with her. (Although it likely HAS happened in real life, they can't condone it on TV). So, instead, he seems to alternate between shutting her down and leading her on. And that, to me, is NOT entertaining television.

And don't even get me started on the dumbing down of Jack O'Neill.

[Blue Banrigh]

Okay, I came back here to rant. Just wading through the fan-fics, hard pressed to find a non Sam/Jack one. And yeesh, the sheer amount of wedding/baby fics.

[tashgate]

Okay, I came back here to rant. Just wading through the fan-fics, hard pressed to find a non Sam/Jack one. And yeesh, the sheer amount of wedding/baby fics.

And the quality of most of those are pretty poor. Quantity does not equal quality.

Are you looking for gen fic? Slash? Other pairings? I know a lot of the sites are flooded with bad S/J stuff that gets banged out in the five minutes that follow each ep in mass quantity, but there's some REALLY good slash stuff out there, and some amazing gen around. Stuff with PLOTS and attention paid to technicalities and writing style and canon and consistent characterization....

[Mr Prophet]

Okay, I came back here to rant. Just wading through the fan-fics, hard pressed to find a non Sam/Jack one. And yeesh, the sheer amount of wedding/baby fics.

*Points subtly at sig while pretending to be fascinated by the flight of swallows outside the window.*

[yasureubetcha]

The thing that bothered me the most about Threads was the way everything ended up being a vehicle for Sam/Jack 'ship. The Daniel and Teal'c parts were good, but I hate the way

Spoiler:

things like Sam's concern about Daniel at the beginning, which could've been a good team-related moment, were spoiled by all the not-so-subtle hints of 'ship to come. That entire sequence was ruined for me because Sam prefaced it with the whole jealous-girlfriend routine (not like she was engaged, or anything. ) It was so immature of her; I was half surprised she didn't break out a K-I-S-S-I-N-G.
Another thing that should've been a great moment was the death of Jacob, but everything from Sam's location when she got the phone call, to Jacob's last words, to the cuddly aftermath reeked of over-ship. As much as I dislike the idea of this 'ship for its own sake, what I resent most is the way it distracted me from what should've been tragic and poignant.

[tashgate]

The thing that bothered me the most about Threads was the way everything ended up being a vehicle for Sam/Jack 'ship.

Absolutely agreed. It made the whole ep look contrived, just like Divide and Conquer - the whole thing revolved around the 'ship and was just completely stomach churning. Someone on one of the other boards made a good point about Stalker-Sam in Threads - that if Kerry had had a pet rabbit, Sam would have boiled it in a pot on the stove.

Stalker-Sam is not the Sam we met in the earlier seasons. Threads COULD have been a great ep. The Teal'c stuff, the Daniel stuff... if they'd devoted more time and attention to the PLOTS they'd developed for Threads it could have been a truly outstanding ep. There was a breakdown done by someone on the SciFi board, and once all the shippy nonsense and garbage was taken out the ep itself was about 26 minutes long.

[shika]

Okay, I came back here to rant. Just wading through the fan-fics, hard pressed to find a non Sam/Jack one. And yeesh, the sheer amount of wedding/baby fics.

I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who has a hard time finding non S/J fiction on a lot of sites. It seems like every time an episode like Divide and Conquer or Threads is aired a whole new slew of S/J fiction is barfed up. Most of it doesn't even look like it's been put through spellcheck. Why are people so anxious to see Sam barefoot and pregnant? Or to see Jack playing Mr Mom? I don't know that I'd even see Jack WANTING to go through the fatherhood thing again. Sure, he's got a soft spot for the kids we've seen him interacting with, but.... if the character was "40" in Brief Candle, then he's closing in on 50 now, he'd be like 70 when the kid got out of high school...

Stargate just didn't start out to be "Sam and Jack's Search for Domesticity" or "As the Stargate Turns". The two characters don't even seem remotely comfortable together in a social situation, so why are the writers trumping up this awful ship? And why are viewers buying into it?

[Beta Candy]

It's good to hear from people who think Jack's been made to look pretty bad by this whole ship thing. I find it disturbing when some people seem to blame Sam and want her off the show. That would let TPTB off much too easy - I'd prefer to see them redeem her, and I do think it can be done by simply taking her back to the way she used to be.

I didn't start watching Stargate in earnest until the DVD's came out, because I'd been catching glimpses of it for years, but wanted to wait until I could see the whole thing from the very beginning. In those glimpses I'd caught before that - spanning seasons 2-5 - one of the many things that impressed me was that finally we had a show with a female lead who wasn't hooked up with any of the guys (or so I thought). I remember watching "48 hours", and how both she and Daniel stood up to Simmons, and thinking if the producers ever fell to the "must hook up somebody!" virus, she and Daniel would be the pair they'd pick. Then Simmons started talking about Daniel's wife, and I thought terrific - we're safe.

Boy, was I wrong. On soooo many levels.

From Sam's first scene in CotG, it was obvious the writers wanted UST between Sam and Jack. I thought, oooookay. I don't personally see it, but the locker room scene in Broca Divide was pretty amusing, so I could live with that sort of thing. Alas, they just couldn't leave it alone. They had to turn it into something we were supposed to take seriously, only they wrote it like a high school play.

They had no trouble leaving alone the exquisitely tense mentoring relationship Jack and Sam shared. No trouble leaving alone the complete comfort and ease Sam and Daniel had in the first few seasons. No trouble at all alienating Sam from the team, proving once in for all that she just can't be one of the guys.

Remember the scene in Jolinar's Memories where Sam's recalling Jolinar having sex with Bynarr in order to escape (not to mention the torture she recalled a few seconds before that), and she is able to tell Daniel about it without sobbing her eyes out or requiring a hug? And Daniel's able to support her just by being there, by listening, by caring?

I want her back. I want that sort of comraderie back.

[LoneStar1836]

Someone on one of the other boards made a good point about Stalker-Sam in Threads - that if Kerry had had a pet rabbit, Sam would have boiled it in a pot on the stove.

Nah, Sam’s not that crazy about Jack. Sgt. Siler might be though. Good thing he didn’t see Jack and Kerry together. He might have written Jack out of his will. The two timer.

[jckfan55]

It's good to hear from people who think Jack's been made to look pretty bad by this whole ship thing. I find it disturbing when some people seem to blame Sam and want her off the show. That would let TPTB off much too easy - I'd prefer to see them redeem her, and I do think it can be done by simply taking her back to the way she used to be.

I didn't start watching Stargate in earnest until the DVD's came out, because I'd been catching glimpses of it for years, but wanted to wait until I could see the whole thing from the very beginning. In those glimpses I'd caught before that - spanning seasons 2-5 - one of the many things that impressed me was that finally we had a show with a female lead who wasn't hooked up with any of the guys (or so I thought). I remember watching "48 hours", and how both she and Daniel stood up to Simmons, and thinking if the producers ever fell to the "must hook up somebody!" virus, she and Daniel would be the pair they'd pick. Then Simmons started talking about Daniel's wife, and I thought terrific - we're safe.

Boy, was I wrong. On soooo many levels.

From Sam's first scene in CotG, it was obvious the writers wanted UST between Sam and Jack. I thought, oooookay. I don't personally see it, but the locker room scene in Broca Divide was pretty amusing, so I could live with that sort of thing. Alas, they just couldn't leave it alone. They had to turn it into something we were supposed to take seriously, only they wrote it like a high school play.

They had no trouble leaving alone the exquisitely tense mentoring relationship Jack and Sam shared. No trouble leaving alone the complete comfort and ease Sam and Daniel had in the first few seasons. No trouble at all alienating Sam from the team, proving once in for all that she just can't be one of the guys.

Remember the scene in Jolinar's Memories where Sam's recalling Jolinar having sex with Bynarr in order to escape (not to mention the torture she recalled a few seconds before that), and she is able to tell Daniel about it without sobbing her eyes out or requiring a hug? And Daniel's able to support her just by being there, by listening, by caring?

I want her back. I want that sort of comraderie back.

Well said.

[Frostfox]

Why are people so anxious to see Sam barefoot and pregnant? Or to see Jack playing Mr Mom? I don't know that I'd even see Jack WANTING to go through the fatherhood thing again. Sure, he's got a soft spot for the kids we've seen him interacting with, but.... if the character was "40" in Brief Candle, then he's closing in on 50 now, he'd be like 70 when the kid got out of high school...

Jack might not want another kid, loosing Charlie was a terrible loss. Sam's young enough that she most likely can hear the body clock ticking and wants one soon.
As well as lack of any chemistry, I just wonder what they would talk about at night? They don't have much in common except work.
'Loooooooooovvvvvvvvve', all hearts, flowers and ott pink smooshiness might make do for some people but stable, long lasting relationships need more foundation than that to succeed long term.

And can I also put in another vote against poor Sam ending up barefoot and pregnant and chained to a sink somewhere out in the boondocks. I want much, much more for this interesting woman.

I'd also have had more respect for the writing if Jack had gone to Sam in Theads to discuss their "relationship". Show us him putting some work into it, not Sam turning up at her bosses house and disrupting his BBQ with his girlfriend.

[yasureubetcha]

To play devil's advocate for a second, I think it would greatly lessen my respect for Jack to have him taking that initiative in Threads. Sam was about to be married, and I can't like the kind of guy who would try to insert himself into the triangle. She was engaged; she'd apparently moved on. Unless you adhere to an "anything for love" philosophy (which Jack obviously doesn't,) most people would agree that initiating a "discussion of their relationship" at that point would be extremely inappropriate and perhaps even morally objectionable. The ball was in Sam's court; it was her choice to go forward with the marriage or back out. Of course, I agree she made the wrong choice, but I don't agree that reopening the 'ship discussion could've been Jack's responsibility at this point.

[Madeleine]

From Sam's first scene in CotG, it was obvious the writers wanted UST between Sam and Jack.

I don't think it's obvious, or even true. I've never heared anyone involved with the show say that it was intended from the start (I don't count PTBs who weren't themselves involved from the start). And compare and contrast that scene with the Sheppard / Thingybob-who's-not-Dogget-or-a-Terminator scene in Rising: don't they both have a "you'll like me when you get to know me" line? They were so very similar (and TPTB are so not slashers) that the only thing that makes one UST and the other not is that one is M/F and the other is M/M. And M/F alone is not enough for *me* to see UST.

Besides, I thought that they were trying quite hard for a Sam-on-Daniel-mini-pash in CotG. Maybe they weren't and maybe they were and dropped the idea swiftly, either way I'm grateful that it didn't last. But that was far more 'obvious' to me than any J/S.

If S/J had ever been obvious to me at any point early on in the show, especially in the pilot ep, I might not be so anti-ship now.

[Frostfox]

To play devil's advocate for a second, I think it would greatly lessen my respect for Jack to have him taking that initiative in Threads. Sam was about to be married, and I can't like the kind of guy who would try to insert himself into the triangle. She was engaged; she'd apparently moved on. Unless you adhere to an "anything for love" philosophy (which Jack obviously doesn't,) most people would agree that initiating a "discussion of their relationship" at that point would be extremely inappropriate and perhaps even morally objectionable. The ball was in Sam's court; it was her choice to go forward with the marriage or back out. Of course, I agree she made the wrong choice, but I don't agree that reopening the 'ship discussion could've been Jack's responsibility at this point.

Okay, that's a good point.

I'm just sick to death of all the work being done by Sam and Jack looking about as interested in her as in a week old wet kipper.
For heaven's sake, if they are 'love's young dream' as people seem to want to believe, RDA has to add something to the mix. I refuse to believe it's bad acting on his part, he was cutely charming with Kerry The CIA in their bedroom scene.

[Beta Candy]

I don't think it's obvious, or even true. I've never heared anyone involved with the show say that it was intended from the start (I don't count PTBs who weren't themselves involved from the start). And compare and contrast that scene with the Sheppard / Thingybob-who's-not-Dogget-or-a-Terminator scene in Rising: don't they both have a "you'll like me when you get to know me" line? They were so very similar (and TPTB are so not slashers) that the only thing that makes one UST and the other not is that one is M/F and the other is M/M. And M/F alone is not enough for *me* to see UST.

Besides, I thought that they were trying quite hard for a Sam-on-Daniel-mini-pash in CotG. Maybe they weren't and maybe they were and dropped the idea swiftly, either way I'm grateful that it didn't last. But that was far more 'obvious' to me than any J/S.

Oh. Well, it wasn't that line that made me think it. It was the briefing room. Every time I see a woman giving a man a ludicrous feminist rant on their first meeting, I just kinda figure that by the end of things she'll be "corrected" to her natural state of barefoot and pregnant, because it's such a tried old progression in TV and film.

It was spefically RDA's reading of "I like women" complete with a leer that convinced me they were going for UST.

But I also thought after a few eps, they changed their minds.