Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[blueeyes]

Ack! Bite your tongue!

I wish they'd give us back the old Sam. The one without all the clingy boy issues. *sigh*

[tashgate]

OH, ok. Sorry, I'm getting my pathetic-mooning-'ship episodes messed up. Whew! I was afraid for a second that Sam had a new man already after Threads...

Well, it's easy to do when there have been SO MANY pathetic mooning ship episodes lately. And so many sacrifices made at the Altar of the Divine Ship - Sam's relationship with Cassie, Jacob, good storylines, honor.... all sacrificed in the most bloody, disgusting ways.

[tashgate]

Anyone who hasn't read this brilliant article http://www.savedanieljackson.com/edi...s/000333.shtml please give it a glance. It pretty well sums up a lot of the things going wrong with Sam's character as a result of this pining, mooning thing or DEOD (Doe Eyes of Death)

[ShadowMaat]

Sorry, but personal prejudice prevents me from ever visiting that site. I still bear the scars from the Daniel vs. Jonas Wars. I'm sure the points made are many of the ones we've already discussed, though, which just shows that we aren't alone in noticing it.

[blueeyes]

I think one of the most interesting points made in this discussion (wherever it happens) is that TPTB actually think they are doing the character of Sam Carter a "service" throughout all of this tripe. They like Carter, and they cannot see that they are liking her into the ground.

For whatever reason, the writers don't seem capable of writing a strong, capable female character anymore. While Sam might have had some rough edges in the first few seasons, at least she wasn't a complete ninny. With the advent of "tru wuv" however, the character lost most of her good edge, and turned into an immature, unprofessional, spiteful and careless person.

Perhaps the writers believe they are pandering to the male viewers that are their target demographic? I know that explained Freya/Anise, she of the barely there clothing and the cup size that outstripped (pun intended) her IQ. But, while the male viewers I know (aged 16-40 something) appreciated the Tok'ra "assets" that were displayed, they don't expect that from one of the series' leads. In fact, one of the 16 year olds has a HUGE crush on AT, and he is the first to tell me that he misses the old Sam. Hmmm, go figure.

If I were the character of Sam Carter, I'd sure be wishing that my writers liked me a little less.

[keshou]

Is this the anti Sam/Jack ship thread or the bash Sam thread? I'm getting confused.

I have my problems with the S/J chemistry and the way the whole thing's been written. However I still welcome the opportunity to see Sam in some different storylines in S9. I'll be very disappointed if they start shipping her with Mitchell or anyone else. Then I'll truly believe they don't know what to do with Sam outside of shipping her with someone.

I don't believe S9 will be entirely S/J ship free but I do think the S/J storyline will be on the back burner. Maybe a few comments here and there but I can live with that. If they drag RDA/Jack back in for an episode at the end to "resolve" the S/J ship (once again) - well it wouldn't surprise me. Most of TPTB seem to enjoy the storyline and they write the show.

But right now they're thinking about S9 and a possible S10 so I think S/J won't be a priority. That's good - means I can settle back into non-shipper mode.

[ShadowMaat]

I don't see anyone bashing Sam. I see people complaining bitterly about a much-loved character being twisted into something they don't like as a direct result of ship.

[keshou]

I don't see anyone bashing Sam. I see people complaining bitterly about a much-loved character being twisted into something they don't like as a direct result of ship.

For some. Others seem to be in the bashing mode in my book. It's one of the things I dislike most about other forums and I hate to see it invade this one.

But to each their own I guess. Maybe I'm just not "anti" enough.

[Jace021903]

For some. Others seem to be in the bashing mode in my book. It's one of the things I dislike most about other forums and I hate to see it invade this one.

But to each their own I guess. Maybe I'm just not "anti" enough.

Hmm.

One big reason why I am so anti-ship so much is that Sam is the one who usually comes out looking bad because of it.

I used to love Sam so it is distressing to see the once-strong character reduced to the love interest and not much else lately.

For me, it is hard to separate the dislike of ship and the dislike of how Sam is being written because there is a cause/effect thing going on.

But I am not actively campaigning to have her removed from the show or anything. I think there is still hope that she could be better utilized in season 9.

We shall soon find out.

Jace

[ShadowMaat]

Oh yeah, the Can Sam Campaign. Well, yes, that IS completely wrong and utterly psychotic but rabid, frothy-mouthed fans will be rabid, frothy-mouthed fans. Any time anything happens that someone doesn't like, there's a campaign to kill, destroy, mutilate, or otherwise remove all trace of the "offense" from existance. Or, ya know, the same passionate dementia to KEEP something on the show. Often the campaigns are concurrent.

[keshou]

One big reason why I am so anti-ship so much is that Sam is the one who usually comes out looking bad because of it.

I agree - it's done her no favors. But Jack's looked pretty pathetic as well at times and it seems Sam gets most of the flack.

I used to love Sam so it is distressing to see the once-strong character reduced to the love interest and not much else lately. For me, it is hard to separate the dislike of ship and the dislike of how Sam is being written because there is a cause/effect thing going on.

I don't like Sam reduced to just a love interest either. Especially when it's a pairing where I just don't see the chemistry. I prefer the Sam we saw in "Enemies" and "Jolinar's Memories". However so far I CAN separate out my dislike of the shippy stuff and concentrate on the aspects of Sam that I still like. I'd just like to see more of them. Loved Sam in Reckoning for example - no ship there.

But I am not actively campaigning to have her removed from the show or anything. I think there is still hope that she could be better utilized in season 9.

Yeah, I guess I thought cansam was a little over-the-top. (Wouldn't that involve canning AT as well, btw?) But maybe it's all tongue-in-cheek - I didn't visit. I'm glad you think there's still hope. So do I. Of course I'm delusional at times.

[Easter Lily]

I agree - it's done her no favors. But Jack's looked pretty pathetic as well at times and it seems Sam gets most of the flack.

Generally speaking, I think it is the female populace of fandom that gets up in arms over Sam. My feeling is that there aren't too many males on this thread specifically critical about Sam even if they are critical about the ship in question. Perhaps it is a case of projection but the perception is that recent portrayals of Sam does females in general a disservice. As thinking members of the female population we would hardly want to believe that we'd be as silly or insensitive where men are concerned. Many of us may believe that we are independent, intelligent women and Sam's recent propensity to look haplessly in Jack's direction may be seen as an insult to that independence that we value both in Sam and in ourselves.

[ShadowMaat]

Actually, I've gone on at length about what I see as the degradation of Jack as well. I think he's getting increasingly stupid, past the point of humor and rationality. And speaking of humor, I think he's lost his. Instead of the wry comments we get vulgarisms and flat-out obnoxious attitude. He's cold, he's distant, he's hateful, and he's a hell of a lot more arrogant and condescending than ever before... without the friendliness, humor and tongue-in-cheekness that made it more bearable and less serious in earlier seasons.

However, while I think at least some of that has to do with the shippyness and the writers, I think most of it has to do with RDA himself and his frustrations and increasing lack of interest in the show. As I've said before, these days we hardly ever see Jack, all we get is RDA. And no offense to the RDA fans in the audience, but I like Jack a lot better... the Jack of seasons 1-4.

So while I'm dissatisfied with the changes in both Jack and Sam in recent seasons, I think my unhappiness with them stems from different reasons. For Sam, it has to do with the writers and the shippiness. For Jack, it's more about RDA having had enough. But I wouldn't be surprised if part of his annoyance has to do with the ship. Then again, I don't think he'd exactly object to having to kiss AT.

I've said enough in my various posts here about why I think ship is destroying Stargate and how its undermining the characters and the quality of the storylines, I don't think I really need to go over it again right now.

Besides, I'm exhausted, insomniac, and full of pain meds, so it's a little hard to concentrate for long. No doubt I'll get in trouble for my comments about Jack/RDA, but my opinions are still my own and I will still call things as I see them. Doesn't make it true, but it's true through MY eyes. Which are the only ones that matter in such things.

[Madeleine]

But Jack's looked pretty pathetic as well at times and it seems Sam gets most of the flack.

I'll admit to having given Sam far more grief than Jack over the shippy stuff. But then ship came out of nowhere in the middle of s7, and it all came from Sam, again and again and again. During s7 and most of s8 I didn't notice one instance of Jack responding shippily to Sam's shippy actions, or of him instigating a shippy moment - however I did find him to actively repel a couple of shippy advances. So it's prety much inevitable that I'll 'blame' Sam for all the shippiness.

In Threads, while I still couldn't see any J==>S in the mix, I did see S make it so very obvious that there was S==>J that even J would have had to notice it, and to acknowledge that he'd noticed it. He chickened out. *That's* the shippiest thing Jack's done, and it wasn't exactly shippy: he failed to respond in any way to Shippy Sam, whereas his MO until Threads was always to deflect.

There's a reason why Sam always comes out worst in the anti-ship discussions; a heck of a lot of people who are anti-S/J aren't actually seeing S/J but see plenty of S==>J and we can't hang everything on Bad Writing, so some of it gets hung on Sam.

[ShadowMaat]

Damn, I've rediscovered the "accidental combination of keys that erases everything you've typed" thing again. Sigh.

I think Jack is a jerk ESPECIALLY when it comes to Sam. I don't think he will ever fully understand or appreciate her, which is something I've said before, but I also think that Pete stood a better chance of at least appreciating her more and TRYING to understand, which is more than Jack would ever bother to do. IMO.

Pete doesn't deserve Sam because Sam will rip his guts out.
Jack doesn't deserve Sam because Jack will invariably hurt her.

People have disagreed vehemently with me about this in the past, but it hasn't changed my opinion. And frankly, the AU versions of Jack and Sam we saw in Moebius only solidifies my feelings.

Spoiler:

Jack couldn't be bothered to give her the time of day. He thought she was a nuisance and an idiot... but in the end, he wanted her anyway. I doubt he appreciated anything about her other than that he found her physically attractive and he probably likes to hear her spout off her "nonsense". But I will never, ever be convinced that he was attracted to her for being HER.

And I don't think that it's any more likely in the "real world". Sure, they have more history, but I still have a hard time believing that he gives a frak. That cold shell of protection he has around him is a little too effective, IMO, and I have doubts that there's anything beyond the shell. I think he's more interested in HIS hormones than in HER mind. Plain and simple. Not a very pleasant outlook on things, but the meds have helped me to see it better.

It's all part of the larger "there's no way in hell these two should ever be remotely attracted to one another" thing that a variety of people, myself included, have been saying since this thread started.

No, they may not be attracted to each other in a love sort of way, but reduce it to sex and hormones and it makes it a little more believable. At least for me. It is awfully depressing to think that the characters could be that shallow, though. I choose once again to blame the writers.