Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[astronomicalchick]

l always though Sam and Daniel had marvelous chemistry, not romantic, just so realistic, they don't pair them together often enough, I'm hopeful for S9.

And replying to Easter Lilly, I quite agree about RDA and his acting with CJ and other male characters, he bounces off them really well and put him in a room with a kid and the magic really shows.
I think it was his acting with the 100 Days (Lairia? sp?) which made me think that it wasn't romantic chemistry with Sam.
Spoilers for Threads

Spoiler:

And the bedroom scene with Kerry came over very natural, which made the awkwardness when Sam turns up at his BBQ all the more noticeable. All I could think was poor Sam, he's just not on the same page as you.

Hathor999, in my watching of the show, it always feels as though Sam is chasing Jack, I hate TPTB for making her so bloody needy. Most women, be they married or single, don't need a man to feel worthwhile and worthy, particularly if they have a challenging, satisfying and, in Sam's case, world saving career. I'm not saying her job is more important than her social life and partner, just that chasing her boss seems beneath Carter somehow, I expect such an interesting woman to be better than that?

Aha the chemistry argument! I'm going to wade in. First of, slash just goes right over my head, sexual slash that is. I loved Kirk and Spock, I thought their relationship was v. profound, I loved Andy and Red in Shawshank Redemption, I cried at the end of that film. The only time I've been able to see sexual slash, if I screw my eyes up enough, is in Blake's 7. I just don't have the slashy gene. Just to let you know where I'm coming from...

I don't see anything approaching that level of profoundity with Jack and Daniel, so I don't see that kind of slash. Sometimes I see, again with appropriate squinting, some "queeny" like behaviour from Jack and Daniel, ie Jack not letting Daniel go to Atlantis, but it's nothing that invades my sleep. Between Jack and Teal'c, however, I think there was a potential to explore profound feelings between them, but it's always concentrated on the comedic, which is still good, but it might have been interesting to develop that further.

Sam and Jack chemistry? I think, like slash, it's all in what you like to see. If you think chemistry is Sam-and-Jack like, then you'll see it. You can see Sam and Jack being awkward and ansgt ridden, or you can see Jack looking discomforted at Sam's crush. You can see Jack pining for Sam or vica versa. You can see Jack looking constipated if you want. Trouble is for me, I've seen all these things with Sam and Jack, even in the middle of my passionate shipping. It's very ambigious.

The trouble is, for me, the early seasons were great in terms of team chemistry, but there was this undercurrent of S&J shippyness (and J&D slash) if you wanted to see. Trouble is, PTB started to play with it in season 4 , which started to disrupt the team chemistry, they then let it lie again and then had a complete brainstorm with it in season 7 on the pretext of Sam's personal development, in which I have to say she's no further forward now, than she was at the beginning of season 7. So what was the point?

[Frostfox]

I don't think Sam has ever 'chased' Jack, nor has she leaned on him in an unhealthy way. Sam is not written as any more needy than any human being. Who doesn't need or at least want love ? Who wants to spend their whole lives with nothing but duty and work to keep them happy ? Only someone who is scarred by interpersonal relations would want to shut down those feelings. What I see are two of them are two attractive and heterosexual humans who have not just worked together but been in life and death situations many, many times. They would never act on any feelings they have and in fact have repressed them to the point of not thinking about it on a conscious level. That does not mean that they should act on those feelings. To do so would not be true to the very military types that they are. Unless he was no longer her superior in the chain of command in her unit it would be a disaster. I was happy when she had Pete...sorry they wrote him out of her life.

That's why I said in 'in my watching of the show'
I know other people don't see her in that way, nor do I expect them to. It's just what I see and it annoys me because I like her so much and don't like people writing her like that.

I thought Pete was good for Sam, I thought he gave her the emotional comfort we all need without going into the thorny issues of chain of command. And I enjoyed the flirty, pretty side of her, allowing her to wear a nice dress and think and act just as a woman for once, not as an Airforce officer.

Even if Jack was no longer her boss, I would think a future relationship between them would put her promotional prospects on a sticky wicket, he was her boss for eight years, the gossip mills would be rife with speculation about their past involvment, even if they had both been perfectly above board and had not had any inappropriate relationship in the past.

[Jonisa]

What also bugs me is those (few) shippers who state with absolute certainty that the only reason one wouldn't ship for Jack and Sam is because of wanting Jack and Daniel together.

Okay, this one makes me crazy.

First of all, let me state flat out that after having been involved in a few fandoms I take the shipping/anti-shipping thing pretty lightly. We all see what we want to see. I'm completely caught up in a ship on another show that a friend of mine just loathes. Frankly it tickles me that two people can watch the same show and have completely different, sometimes even contradictory, interpretations. I think it makes all of us fans rather endearing, and really highlights how big a role our own experiences and perspective play into how much we enjoy a show or certain characters.

What I don't appreciate is being told, after stating that I don't see any Sam/Jack chemistry and don't find their relationship compelling, is that the real reason I say this is because I want to see Jack and Daniel get together. Erm...no. Please take what I say at face value and don't tell me why I think the way I do. I can do that for myself.

Anyway, that is an extremely rare occurence. Thankfully.

If there are shippers who give shipdom a bad name, there are also anti-shippers who make anti-shipdom look bad. The ones who blame the shippers for everything bad that happens on the show, the ones who get hysterical at the mere idea of ship, the ones who bash Sam and Jack just because they don't like seeing the two together. No one group is completely innocent.

Word a thousand times over. I don't care for S/J ship, but for me it isn't worth getting worked up into a lather about it. There are some fans that take it too far, on both sides of the debate. This type of disagreement isn't unique to Stargate fandom either, as I'm sure most of us know.

I think Astronomicalchick touched on it when she mentioned it might be an internet phenomenon. Those of us who care about certain shows to the extent where we write fan fiction, make videos, icons, and signatures, manipulate pictures and join mailing lists and discussion boards to talk about the show are a breed apart from the vast majority of tv watchers. It follows that we also can be quite a bit more passionate about our character likes/dislikes than the average fan, and on the internet we are free to type without thinking. That can lead to some unpleasantness.

Getting back to S/J shipping vs. non/anti-shipping, I do think the vast majority of Stargate fans are quite respectful about the divergent views people have. At least, in my experience they have been.

As far as how I handle disliking S/J ship? I just ignore it. Works for me!

[ShadowMaat]

I would be quite willing to ignore ship if TPTB would let me. Unfortunately, there are some things that are too blatant to ignore. It'd be like trying not to notice an elephant in a colony of penguins.

[Jonisa]

I would be quite willing to ignore ship if TPTB would let me. Unfortunately, there are some things that are too blatant to ignore. It'd be like trying not to notice an elephant in a colony of penguins.

Yeah, well, you're right, there is that. Problematic.

My manner of ignoring has a lot to do with the FF button on my VCR remote. I'm very quick on the draw. Any sign of ship, and I zip right past it. Shortens the episodes too, sometimes quite considerably, depending on which one I'm watching.

[Jace021903]

If there are shippers who give shipdom a bad name, there are also anti-shippers who make anti-shipdom look bad. The ones who blame the shippers for everything bad that happens on the show, the ones who get hysterical at the mere idea of ship, the ones who bash Sam and Jack just because they don't like seeing the two together. No one group is completely innocent.

Oh, I absolutely agree. Thankfully, most fans on either side are not so extreme.

[Katerine]

Argh. Spent half an hour on this post and the stupid browser decided to quit on me. Have to type it all again...

Hathor999, in my watching of the show, it always feels as though Sam is chasing Jack, I hate TPTB for making her so bloody needy. Most women, be they married or single, don't need a man to feel worthwhile and worthy, particularly if they have a challenging, satisfying and, in Sam's case, world saving career. I'm not saying her job is more important than her social life and partner, just that chasing her boss seems beneath Carter somehow, I expect such an interesting woman to be better than that?

Very good points all, although I agree with others in that I don't exactly see Sam chasing Jack. Actually, when I look back on the series, this is what I see:

In S1, there's nothing between them other than mutual respect, and caring for a fellow member of the team. There's some light flirting from Jack, which I think is just from Jack being a product of his generation. Neither he nor Sam thinks anything of it. Then Daniel visits an alternate reality, in which a civilian Doctor Carter is involved with Jack. When Daniel gets back, he tells Sam and Jack about this. They are both shocked.

Skip ahead a couple of years. Many life-and-death experiences have happened. Also some more light flirting on Jack's part, which I think is just Jack being Jack. But now Sam is a little confused about her own emotions - the fact that she was involved with Jack in another reality has thrown her.

Then a Doctor Carter from yet another reality pays a visit. Turns out that in this reality, as well, she isn't in the military, and she and Jack are involved. Married, in fact, and clearly in love. Sam, consummate scientist that she is, can't help but wonder at the odds. And then she starts wondering if maybe the only thing keeping her and Jack apart is the military thing, and that maybe she and Jack were meant to be together.

Suggestion is a powerful thing. It can, in fact, make you feel attraction - or make you think you feel attraction - where none previously existed. I speak from experience.

But I think there are a few things Sam didn't take into account. See, those two alternate realities have a lot more things in common with each other (that are significantly different from our reality) than just the fact that Sam's not military and she's involved with Jack. Off the top of my head, these are the things those realities had in common:

1. Sam isn't in the military.
2. Sam is involved with Jack.
3. There is no Daniel. (will come back to this later, but this is actually really relevant, and not because of shippiness).
4. Teal'c is still in the service of Apophis (also very relevant).
5. The SGC is called the SGA. They've apparently not gone on many exploratory missions. They've never heard of the Asgaard, and they've never learned how to speak Abydonian. They probably don't even have a clear idea of who they're up against (see later notes).
6. Jack is in charge.
7. Last but certainly not least, Earth is being destroyed by Apophis.

These things are actually all interrelated. In fact, the way I figure it (--> indicates cause/effect relationship):

• #1 --> #3
• #3 --> #4
• #3, #4 --> #5
• #5 --> #6
• #3, #4, #5 --> #7
• #1, #5, #6, #7 --> #2 (and if you're shippy, #3 --> #2 too )

The way I figure it, this is roughly what happened... Sam didn't join the military. As a result, she had more time, energy, and freedom to devote to figuring out the Stargate. Because of this, she made much better progress than the Sam of our reality, and Catherine never saw the need to recruit Daniel.

No Daniel. No Daniel promising to be able to get the first team back home, thereby getting General West to okay the mission. No Daniel wandering off, petting a yak-like thing, getting caught in its reins and dragged halfway across the desert to the Abydonian village, causing the rest of the team to have to chase after him. So, likely the team never even found the Abydonians. And even if they did... no Daniel figuring out that Ra was there. No Daniel figuring out how to speak Abydonian. No Daniel figuring out that they were dealing with an alien race that possessed human hosts and enslaved humans by pretending to be Egyptian gods.

No Daniel to take a staff-weapon blast for Jack, to infiltrate Ra's ship and talk to him, to turn on Ra at the last moment rather than kill his team. No Daniel to talk Jack out of the suicide mission and get Jack to think about the bigger picture. That was Sam's job.

No Daniel to get married to Sha're and stay behind. No reason, when Apophis came through a year later, not to blow up the planet (since, again, they'd never met the Abydonians) - assuming that they didn't blow up Abydos the year before, that is. No Daniel to find the cartouche. No reason to even be on Abydos when it was attacked, and therefore, no opportunity for Ferretti to see the address for Chulak. No going to Chulak. No meeting Teal'c.

No Teal'c to tell them who they were up against. In fact, without either Daniel or Teal'c around, they probably continued to think for some time that they were still fighting Ra (assuming they were ever able to figure that much out). No Teal'c to provide invaluable and unique intelligence on countless occasions, in fact.

Think about it... except for the Tok'ra, every advance, when it came to knowing who and what was out there, happened as a direct result of either Daniel's or Teal'c's contributions (and in many cases, like finding the Asgaard, the contributions of both of them).

So, we have Jack in charge of a Stargate program, charged with defending Earth against... an unknown enemy. No intelligence about this enemy. No way of gathering that intelligence (because remember, they still think Abydos is the only place the Stargate can go - remember how insistent Sam was on that point in CotG), no allies... just a small and closely knit group fighting a losing battle for the planet, with no hope of winning.

Is it really that surprising that, in those circumstances, Dr. Carter and General O'Neill would seek comfort in each other?

And then our Sam and Jack encounter those Sams and Jacks, and they naturally draw conclusions about being meant for each other. And now, basically, they seem to be trying to force feelings for each other (because, of course, they must be attracted to each other - they are meant to be). And, at the same time, they are trying to quash those feelings (because they're both military, so it can never be). All based on what happened in some alternate realities that are totally different from our own.

(note: I've already covered what I think of the ship from a writing perspective. The above is how I rationalize it from a character perspective. It still makes no sense).

What I'd love to see is for Sam and Jack to encounter another reality... one similar to ours, but different in that, in that reality, Sam and Jack never encountered Dr. Carter. I'm guessing that, in that reality, Sam is probably happily involved with somebody else. Maybe Jack too. And neither of them have probably even considered the idea of being together. Wish that were the reality we were watching.

[yasureubetcha]

Wow...give me a second to put my eyes back in my head...ok. That's amazing. And probably right.

Though I did like the sort-of-shippy moments from the old days, I don't enjoy how blatant it is now. I love it when love and duty conflict, because it makes great character moments, but in my little world duty would always win. Love conquers all is so overdone. So IF Jack retires, I wouldn't have a problem with a relationship. And since RDA's leaving anyway, why not let them get together then. But not yet. And no sooner than absolutely necessary! I don't know if that makes me anti-ship or not. I want to be...but that would involve endorsing Pete, and HIM I ardently dislike.

[Easter Lily]

However, fortunately, folk like that are few and fair between (the ones that think they own the show that is), but fandom can create it's own monsters.

I wonder if how much of all this has been the result of the Internet. Back when I started in any fandom, it was Star Trek, we had no internet. We met every 6 weeks to watch new episodes mailed over from the States. We had a Scottish Star Trek Group called IDIC, run by three long-term Star Trek fans, one of which was a slasher. I remember being horrified at such a thing! (cut me some slack I was young). These women issued a newsletter every 6 weeks which had a substantial letter section. And you could reply to letter, much like you reply to a post, but you had time to consider what you'd written and the women edited them if they were too inflammatory. Everything was very polite and everyone got on. Now it's too easy to get het up, call somebody a numpty and hit send.

Astro... I think the internet has EVERYTHING to do with it... I guess I'm old enough to remember the internet in its infancy and the Star Trek connection too. I became a much bigger fan of Star Trek TNG because of the internet... after watching each episode, I would log into the internet at Uni and read all the comments about the most recent episode as well as all the useless bits of trivia. There was none of this WYSISWYG stuff... it was all green, all Unix. These days when people get hot under the collar about an episode, they have so many avenues to vent their spleen... and more often than not they sound more angry than they need to be. Not to mention the ease with which to attach pics to posts these days has really pushed the envelop regarding how extreme one can really become.

[Easter Lily]

I don't think Sam has ever 'chased' Jack, nor has she leaned on him in an unhealthy way. Sam is not written as any more needy than any human being. Who doesn't need or at least want love ? Who wants to spend their whole lives with nothing but duty and work to keep them happy ? Only someone who is scarred by interpersonal relations would want to shut down those feelings. What I see are two of them are two attractive and heterosexual humans who have not just worked together but been in life and death situations many, many times.

This is probably the main reason why I'm not rabidly anti-ship... as you say, Ruach... there is nothing that is more of an expression of our humaness than our need to connect with the people around us. I think you make a valid point here that relationships are a reality of life. My problem with the whole Sam and Jack ship is that they have a good, solid officer to officer dynamic but when ship is introduced into the equation, it seems a little forced to me. Furthermore, as you rightly point out too, I think Carter has much more of a personal dynamic with the many men of her life than with Jack. I've been revisiting Season 6 on DVD and watching her interact with Agent Barrett and Rodney McKay confirms in my mind that Carter might be better off looking elsewhere for lurrrrve...

However, I do think there are many valid arguments brought up by others that Carter seems to be at the centre of much of Stargate shippyness. That somehow because she is the main female character, that much of the romantic stuff seems to happen to her. A kind of relationship sexism...

I do agree with Katherine about the power of suggestion esp with regard to the alternate universe scenarios between S/J. It certainly had the effect of forcing the issue...

Love conquers all is so overdone. So IF Jack retires, I wouldn't have a problem with a relationship. And since RDA's leaving anyway, why not let them get together then. But not yet. And no sooner than absolutely necessary! I don't know if that makes me anti-ship or not. I want to be...but that would involve endorsing Pete, and HIM I ardently dislike.

I don't think that is necessarily the case... being anti-Sam/Jack ship doesn't mean that you have to like Pete... I don't feel I know Pete well enough to like or dislike him but I don't feel all that comfortable with the Sam/Jack thing. You could be anti-Sam/Jack ship because you think that Sam would be better off with someone else, or that Jack looks a lot more comfortable with the other women in his life or even because like some of us... you just don't "see" it. Like you, I think that in a show that deals with so much gritty reality, that it is somewhat cheesy to propagate the "love conquers all" line... I don't mind it in romantic comedies but not in something like Stargate. It comes off very clumsy.

[Easter Lily]

Aha the chemistry argument! <snip>
Sam and Jack chemistry? I think, like slash, it's all in what you like to see. If you think chemistry is Sam-and-Jack like, then you'll see it. You can see Sam and Jack being awkward and ansgt ridden, or you can see Jack looking discomforted at Sam's crush. You can see Jack pining for Sam or vica versa. You can see Jack looking constipated if you want. Trouble is for me, I've seen all these things with Sam and Jack, even in the middle of my passionate shipping. It's very ambigious.

LOL... I didn't quite see Jack looking constipated but I did wonder if he had choked on something on several occasions...
Chemistry may or may not be overrated but I think in a visual medium such as television or film, I suspect that the viewer feels the need to buy into the relationship. They need to see the romance as well as be informed that it is there. I also find it quite interesting that various instances of male to male chemistry of the non-slash variety (Shep/McKay or J/D) seems a lot more widely accepted than the romantic female to male ones (Weir/Shep or Teyla/Shep or S/J). It seems to me that most people enjoy and can see the wonderful banter between Sheppard and McKay but it becomes a lot more controversial when members of the opposite sex are involved. My take on this is that people take romance very personally and seriously and once they get hooked... they're in it lock, stock and barrel. I don't know what the psychological jargon for this is... but it's probably akin to projection of some sort.
This is why I'm very sceptical about TPTB ever leaving ship alone in Atlantis because they know it gets fans all het up... in either direction...

The trouble is, for me, the early seasons were great in terms of team chemistry, but there was this undercurrent of S&J shippyness (and J&D slash) if you wanted to see. Trouble is, PTB started to play with it in season 4 , which started to disrupt the team chemistry, they then let it lie again and then had a complete brainstorm with it in season 7 on the pretext of Sam's personal development, in which I have to say she's no further forward now, than she was at the beginning of season 7. So what was the point?

This is one of the reasons why I like Season 6 so much probably, there is none of that overt stuff... some undercurrent maybe... but nothing's that in your face.

[NightGloom]

*grumbles* I just saw Threads... so you understand why I must bring this thread up.

Spoiler:

1. Jacob died simple for shippy reasons. I am so sick of this! They really need to stop killing off characters.
2. The BBQ scene- that was most likely one of the most uncomfortable things I've ever watched.
3. Jack putting his arm around Sam while Jacob was on his death bed. That was probably the second most uncomfortable thing I've seen. Just watch the look on Jack's face!
4. Pete break-up scene- probably the most cliche you can get
5. Kerry- Wow, that was so not obvious that they brought her in just so they could add an extra shippy scene.

[jckfan55]

On one hand, I don't object to Sam and Jack ship (I used to actively ship for them) and on the other, I hated the way that it was done in Stargate. It was so much better just left alone. I had real problems with the soap opera-ness of it which started in season 7. Once the car-crash that was Chimera they had no way of solving it so that Carter looked good.

Spoilers for Threads & Season 7

Spoiler:

I, too, wish they left the whole thing alone and I think that the writers served Carter poorly. I disagree with those who say Carter is pining after Jack without him being interested at all. He does some of the mixed signal thing. I had just been hoping (in vain, apparently) that they had jettisoned the whole Jack idea after Grace. I just don't see them together, myself. if they were going to bring up the whole "if only there were no rules to stand in our way" thing, then they shouldn't have made the Sam-Pete thing so serious. The writers botched the Pete AND Sam characters here. I can see her *wanting* him to be the one and starting to get serious, but not accepting his marriage proposal. I can see her being a bit gun shy in the romance dept & tentative about commitment (after all, most of the men she's been at all interested in have died) but not jumping into marriage just because she thinks he's a nice guy. I wish if the writers were going to go for the Sam-jack thing they would just do it. It's time to deal or drop it. Actually a cruder phrase comes to mind. I think AT has even said, deal with it already, this is like high school. Luckily there was a lot else going on in Threads. Sorry if this came off as ranting. I got kind of wound up.

[ForeverSg1]

I have to first admit that I am a S/J shipper and I understand that this is an anti-ship thread. I have spent a great deal of time reading and discussing views with other shippers and felt I needed to give the anti-shipper view a fair chance as well. After reading both, I feel like an odd ball who doesn't truly fit in either group. I admit to seeing chemistry between Sam and Jack, but I also admit that I have seen my two favorite characters change in ways over the past two years that I am not truly comfortable with.

As my name suggests, I'm a fan of SG-1 team, and that includes all four members. My dedication is to the team, then to Jack, to Sam, and finally to Sam and Jack. I do not believe Daniel is the cause for all Sam and Jack's problems; nor do I believe that Sam is a whining, love-sick puppy unable to stop thinking of Jack long enough to do her job properly. I do however, think that the team dynamics has been steadily broken down bit by bit since season four. I enjoyed the banter between Jack and Daniel. I loved their relationship, but I never thought of it as anything more than two people caring for one another. I love seeing Sam and Teal'c together and wish we could be given more. I think Jack has had a wonderful relationship with each member of his team, but HAD is the key word here.

I don't know when it actually happened or what exactly caused it, but somewhere after 'Shades of Grey' I saw the relationship between these four characters slowly change and not always for the better.

I guess what my point to all this is that there are many Sam and Jack shippers who do not like what the writers have done to the characters of Sam and Jack. We've never wanted Stargate to turn into a soap opera, nor did we want it to become the Sam and Jack hour. I don't like the angst... I have never liked the angst. I liked seeing Sam smile and laugh at Jack's silly jokes. I liked seeing them be comfortable with one another. I liked seeing the easy going, laid-back Jack, not the stone-faced and closed off Jack he's become. I really hate that the writers have taken a strong, independant, brilliant character like Sam and made her behave in ways that provoke other fans to berate or make jokes about her.

I did not choose to make this relationship up, it was wrapped up with a bow and given to me by the writers. I only chose to open the box and enjoy what was given to me. However, as much as I had hoped to one day see Sam and Jack together, I had never expected it to happen until Jack retired or the show ended. I am truly saddened to see RDA leave the show, but a part of me is somewhat glad, because I'm hoping the writers may still have time to snap out of their cloud-filled disillusional dreams and save the wonderful characters that they have been slowly killing over the past two years.

I really think that the writers really have gone out of their way to force a wedge into the different factions of Stargate. They seem to really write their episodes to antagonize each group by misdirecting and implying things that really never needed to be there. From what I have read, Moebius is a prime example of this. They tried so hard to write this episode so each faction was given a tiny bit of what they wanted, but not enough to really make anyone happy. Thus in the end, everyone ends up being a bit disappointed.

In any case, I doubt I'll ever post again on this thread, but I thought you should know that there are some of us out there who don't think we own the show, nor do we believe that anyone who doesn't see our views of Sam and Jack as freaks. I understand your reasons for not wanting or liking ship between Sam and Jack, I only hope you can understand and respect my reasons for enjoying it(at east part of the time).

ForeverSG1

[yasureubetcha]

This is written from a pre-Threads viewpoint, since I haven't seen it yet:

Personally, I see (and enjoy) the chemistry between the two of them, but I agree that a lot of the team dynamic has suffered because of the way things have become in later seasons, and regret that. However, the reason I'm against a relationship is because I don't think it's in character for either one to go against the regs. or leave the defense of the planet for the sake of an unfulfilled attraction. I think if they did, they wouldn't be the characters I have come over 8 seasons to love.