Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Jace021903]

Incidentally, I find it interesting that so many people are against "Grace." To me, that ep was a step in the right direction... I interpreted the "Jack" scene as Sam arriving at the conclusion that she's been using her crush on Jack as an excuse to not find anybody else. Regardless of whether Sam's right about that, it's still a very human thing to do. And Sam's immediately going out and finding somebody else (especially somebody as seemingly right for her as Pete) would have been a good thing, if she hadn't subsequently shown signs of waffling about it. *sigh*

Hi, Katherine,



You made some good points in your post.

I have had a rant or 12 over what they have done to Sam's character, but I agree with your comments about Grace. When it first aired, I thought that it was a great step forward by Sam to move on with her life.

By the end of the season though, I thought they made Sam look ridiculous.

And you are absolutely right that the writers need to make us care about Sam as a character first--apart from her romances.


Jace

[Madeleine]

If I'd ever seen ship *before* Grace then Grace might have had some appeal - I could perhaps have watched it and seen Sam deciding to Get Over It. But having never seen any ship at all until then it was in effect an introduction of Ship to Stargate; the fact that she did decide to move on paled into insignificance beside the fact that some great big new unignorable shipness had suddenly appeared in the show.

Besides, I knew as I watched Grace that no way would TPTB ever leave it at that. The last time they said they were closing the door on S/J 'feelings' they turned out to have been a bit economical with the truth / wildly innacurate / teasing us / changed their minds / whatever; so I never had any hope that Grace would finalise anything.

Besides, Sam was totally wet about it all, so I probably wouldn't have liked this ep as an ep very much even if it *had* killed the ship.

[Frostfox]

Chalk me up as another who just can't see the chemistry between Carter and O'Neill.
I see the friendship, an affection even, but just not that great love to end all loves that the relationship fans see, where as the sparks (not necessarily sexual) between O'Neill and Daniel seems obvious to me every time they interact.

But I think the thing I hate most is the taking sides.
I know there are S/J shippers who hate Daniel on principal and I have come across D/J slashers who loath Sam just because she's a rival for Jack's affection. I feel both sides should play on thier own side of the pond and live and let live. I'm no shipper so I don't hang about in shippy places and pay little or no attention to their opinions of episodes or if they find them 'shippy'. And I expect them to do the same for me and my opinions.

Foxy, who likes everyone to be happy

[astronomicalchick]

Chalk me up as another who just can't see the chemistry between Carter and O'Neill.
I see the friendship, an affection even, but just not that great love to end all loves that the relationship fans see, where as the sparks (not necessarily sexual) between O'Neill and Daniel seems obvious to me every time they interact.

But I think the thing I hate most is the taking sides.
I know there are S/J shippers who hate Daniel on principal and I have come across D/J slashers who loath Sam just because she's a rival for Jack's affection. I feel both sides should play on thier own side of the pond and live and let live. I'm no shipper so I don't hang about in shippy places and pay little or no attention to their opinions of episodes or if they find them 'shippy'. And I expect them to do the same for me and my opinions.

Foxy, who likes everyone to be happy

Me too Foxy, it just seems such a waste of time and effort to get steamed up about. If you keep ship nice and covert then this type of thing doesn't kick off.

*hopes fervently PTB leave Atlantis ship alone*

[Frostfox]

Me too Foxy, it just seems such a waste of time and effort to get steamed up about. If you keep ship nice and covert then this type of thing doesn't kick off.

*hopes fervently PTB leave Atlantis ship alone*

Exactly. I'm happy that they are happy with what they see as ship.

What stuns me are the few who seem almost evangelical about it, as though they can't be happy unless everyone watching the show is into the ship and if one isn't, one is wrong or not a real fan.

[Jace021903]

Exactly. I'm happy that they are happy with what they see as ship.

What stuns me are the few who seem almost evangelical about it, as though they can't be happy unless everyone watching the show is into the ship and if one isn't, one is wrong or not a real fan.

That bugs me a bit too.

What also bugs me is those (few) shippers who state with absolute certainty that the only reason one wouldn't ship for Jack and Sam is because of wanting Jack and Daniel together.

Um, no. How about because it is badly written? Give me a realistic story about a CO and a subordinate who have feelings for each other and explore the consequences and I'll watch.

I don't have any problems with slash, but I guess I am irked by folks who always read ulterior motives into someone's opinion--as if that negates the person's position.

I am also happy for the shippers if they can get what they want from a scene that I could interpret a different way.

I think that TPTB like all the controversy that is caused by the shippy scenes, though. In the most recent Lowdown, they seemed a bit too gleeful that they were going to disappoint a portion of the fans and thus need body guards.

[ShadowMaat]

If there are shippers who give shipdom a bad name, there are also anti-shippers who make anti-shipdom look bad. The ones who blame the shippers for everything bad that happens on the show, the ones who get hysterical at the mere idea of ship, the ones who bash Sam and Jack just because they don't like seeing the two together. No one group is completely innocent.

I will agree that TPTB thrive on controversy, though. Even outright stupidity couldn't explain their unerring accuracy in pissing off as many fans as possible on BOTH sides of the ship line.

[Frostfox]

What also bugs me is those (few) shippers who state with absolute certainty that the only reason one wouldn't ship for Jack and Sam is because of wanting Jack and Daniel together.

Yes, I can imagine that would be very annoying. There are plenty of valid reasons for not wanting ship in a programme.

Give me a realistic story about a CO and a subordinate who have feelings for each other and explore the consequences and I'll watch.

Gosh, yes, much more interesting.

I don't have any problems with slash, but I guess I am irked by folks who always read ulterior motives into someone's opinion--as if that negates the person's position.

As a slash fan, I wouldn't assume that an anti-shipper would automaticaly be a slash fan, I suspect the majority of anti's aren't slash fans - for a start, from reading this and other forums, it seems that lots of the anti fans are male and most slash fans are female.

I really don't remember such animosity between slash and het fans in my previous fandom (DS9). There was some mild frission between Worf fans and Bashir fans over who got Dax (um, well both of them) but nothing major. And we were slashing several of the male characters without nary a ripple from the het fans (though slashing Miles Most Married Character In Trek O'Brien caused one or two raised eyebrows. )

[Hathor999]

That´s a thing that is bothering me, too. TPTB seem to do almost everything what´s possible to made the fans go at each others throats...And it´s not only affecting the fan´s. I mean what´s the reason for writing Sam the way it has been done since the second half of season 7? It´s almost as would they WANT that the fans hate Sam...and nobody can tell me that they don´t know that some of the stuff made her look bad. In the official episode description from Sci Fi for "Gemini" was even said something about Sam´s feelings endangering a world! That has IMO not any longer something to do with ship only with turning Sam into an idiot!
I beliefe to remember that in an interview AT talked about something she don´t wanted to do (but RCC said she must do it) because she thought the fans would hate her for it! Sadly it was not clear about which episode she talked and what she thought the fans would hate her to do.

I wished I could at least understand why TPTB do what they do but I can´t, it seems for me absolutly illocigal...

[Easter Lily]

Chalk me up as another who just can't see the chemistry between Carter and O'Neill.
I see the friendship, an affection even, but just not that great love to end all loves that the relationship fans see, where as the sparks (not necessarily sexual) between O'Neill and Daniel seems obvious to me every time they interact. But I think the thing I hate most is the taking sides.

Yeah, that's why I tend to call myself a non-shipper than an anti-shipper. My preference is that ship be kept secondary/tertiary to the main arc. I don't hate ship per se but find that more often than not, it gets in the way of good pacing. And really, in sci-fi, pacing is almost everything. Also more often than not, romance becomes a time filler at the expense of good dialogue or development. My beef is with the writers not with people who may or may not "see" sparks...

Your comment about Daniel and Jack triggered something that I've been thinking for some time now... I strongly believe that Jack has great chemistry with all the male characters (not just Daniel)... when he is bantering with other male figures, he is in his element. However, I don't see the same degree of enjoyment/freedom when he interacts with Carter... He is an awe of her abilities, that is true, and at times he speaks sternly to her like an older brother but romance? Perhaps Jack isn't as good with women... perhaps he hides behind the facade of jocularity and don't feel he can do the same with the women in his life. Perhaps... but then I think of Laira, the Edoran woman, with whom he had a fleeting relationship and think perhaps that the dynamic between Carter and him isn't quite right for romance.

[Hathor999]

Yeah, that's why I tend to call myself a non-shipper than an anti-shipper. My preference is that ship be kept secondary/tertiary to the main arc. I don't hate ship per se but find that more often than not, it gets in the way of good pacing. And really, in sci-fi, pacing is almost everything. Also more often than not, romance becomes a time filler at the expense of good dialogue or development. My beef is with the writers not with people who may or may not "see" sparks...

Your comment about Daniel and Jack triggered something that I've been thinking for some time now... I strongly believe that Jack has great chemistry with all the male characters (not just Daniel)... when he is bantering with other male figures, he is in his element. However, I don't see the same degree of enjoyment/freedom when he interacts with Carter... He is an awe of her abilities, that is true, and at times he speaks sternly to her like an older brother but romance? Perhaps Jack isn't as good with women... perhaps he hides behind the facade of jocularity and don't feel he can do the same with the women in his life. Perhaps... but then I think of Laira, the Edoran woman, with whom he had a fleeting relationship and think perhaps that the dynamic between Carter and him isn't quite right for romance.

Interesting thoughts. I wouldn´t call myself an anti-shipper, too. The main reason why I´m not happy about is that it has taken way to much room in the show...in a action/adventure show as Stargate should romance be used as a spice but in season 7 and parts of season 8 was it the main story-arc...and that was IMO the wrong way.And the second reason why I don´t like it´s...it´s just bad written...incredibly bad written, almost as it have been done by someone who has only theoretical knowledge about emotions...

And couldn´t see very much chemistry between Jack and Sam myself, at least not in the later seasons. In the first 3 or 4 seasons I think I could see some chemistry between them...not very much, but I could see it...but than all of it seemed gone and there interaction seemed always forced.
But to the same time they had IMO always both chemistry with Daniel and Teal´c.

[Frostfox]

And couldn´t see very much chemistry between Jack and Sam myself, at least not in the later seasons. In the first 3 or 4 seasons I think I could see some chemistry between them...not very much, but I could see it...but than all of it seemed gone and there interaction seemed always forced.
But to the same time they had IMO always both chemistry with Daniel and Teal´c.

l always though Sam and Daniel had marvelous chemistry, not romantic, just so realistic, they don't pair them together often enough, I'm hopeful for S9.

And replying to Easter Lilly, I quite agree about RDA and his acting with CJ and other male characters, he bounces off them really well and put him in a room with a kid and the magic really shows.
I think it was his acting with the 100 Days (Lairia? sp?) which made me think that it wasn't romantic chemistry with Sam.
Spoilers for Threads

Spoiler:

And the bedroom scene with Kerry came over very natural, which made the awkwardness when Sam turns up at his BBQ all the more noticeable. All I could think was poor Sam, he's just not on the same page as you.

Hathor999, in my watching of the show, it always feels as though Sam is chasing Jack, I hate TPTB for making her so bloody needy. Most women, be they married or single, don't need a man to feel worthwhile and worthy, particularly if they have a challenging, satisfying and, in Sam's case, world saving career. I'm not saying her job is more important than her social life and partner, just that chasing her boss seems beneath Carter somehow, I expect such an interesting woman to be better than that?

[astronomicalchick]

If there are shippers who give shipdom a bad name, there are also anti-shippers who make anti-shipdom look bad. The ones who blame the shippers for everything bad that happens on the show, the ones who get hysterical at the mere idea of ship, the ones who bash Sam and Jack just because they don't like seeing the two together. No one group is completely innocent.

I will agree that TPTB thrive on controversy, though. Even outright stupidity couldn't explain their unerring accuracy in pissing off as many fans as possible on BOTH sides of the ship line.

Yep, and shippers fight amongst themselves. Apparently, some of the yahoo groups are quite robust.. one recently I got jumped on because apparently I didn't like Teyla because I-was-a-W/S-shipper-omg.

Trouble is, I think some fans get the delusion that they not only own fandom but the show as well, and heaven help either if they divert from the One True Path/Pairing/whatever, and if when you're a newbie, coming into it for the first time it's easy to get misconceptions. Back when I was a baby Sam&Jack shipper I thought that it was just slashers that hated S&J, but after a few people took me round the back of the bike shed and knocked some sense into me, I realised that wasn't the case. (They were v. gentle)

However, fortunately, folk like that are few and fair between (the ones that think they own the show that is), but fandom can create it's own monsters.

I wonder if how much of all this has been the result of the Internet. Back when I started in any fandom, it was Star Trek, we had no internet. We met every 6 weeks to watch new episodes mailed over from the States. We had a Scottish Star Trek Group called IDIC, run by three long-term Star Trek fans, one of which was a slasher. I remember being horrified at such a thing! (cut me some slack I was young). These women issued a newsletter every 6 weeks which had a substantial letter section. And you could reply to letter, much like you reply to a post, but you had time to consider what you'd written and the women edited them if they were too inflammatory. Everything was very polite and everyone got on. Now it's too easy to get het up, call somebody a numpty and hit send.

[ruach]

]

Hathor999, in my watching of the show, it always feels as though Sam is chasing Jack, I hate TPTB for making her so bloody needy. Most women, be they married or single, don't need a man to feel worthwhile and worthy, particularly if they have a challenging, satisfying and, in Sam's case, world saving career. I'm not saying her job is more important than her social life and partner, just that chasing her boss seems beneath Carter somehow, I expect such an interesting woman to be better than that?

I don't think Sam has ever 'chased' Jack, nor has she leaned on him in an unhealthy way. Sam is not written as any more needy than any human being. Who doesn't need or at least want love ? Who wants to spend their whole lives with nothing but duty and work to keep them happy ? Only someone who is scarred by interpersonal relations would want to shut down those feelings. What I see are two of them are two attractive and heterosexual humans who have not just worked together but been in life and death situations many, many times. They would never act on any feelings they have and in fact have repressed them to the point of not thinking about it on a conscious level. That does not mean that they should act on those feelings. To do so would not be true to the very military types that they are. Unless he was no longer her superior in the chain of command in her unit it would be a disaster. I was happy when she had Pete...sorry they wrote him out of her life.

[astronomicalchick]

I beliefe to remember that in an interview AT talked about something she don´t wanted to do (but RCC said she must do it) because she thought the fans would hate her for it! Sadly it was not clear about which episode she talked and what she thought the fans would hate her to do.

I wished I could at least understand why TPTB do what they do but I can´t, it seems for me absolutly illocigal...

I think, although I could be wrong, that it was

Spoiler:

in Affinity, and it was either saying "Yes" to the proposal and kissing Pete while she was supposed to be on duty at a stakeout or something or it was talking about top secret stuff in a park. I think it was the former, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong