Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Dani347]

Sorry, sorry, sorry! I was so disgusted that I forgot that I was talking about an episode people hadn't seen.

Spoiler:

99% of me is halfway sure they weren't trying to say that Sam would really shoot Daniel for no good reason when she wouldn't shoot Jack, but it does leave open that Jack is more important. That someone could use her feelings for Jack to compromise her, but not Daniel or Teal'c. Which says two things. Sam doesn't really care about anyone but Jack. Or Sam's feelings for Jack really do have an effect on her behavior, an effect that isn't one she has with Daniel or Teal'c, so this thing she has with Jack in particular is detrimental to Sam, the SGC, probably Earth in general.

[Liv]

Gemini was, IMO of course, an incredibly boring episode and one with some pretty illogical flaws as well. Unfortunately, I don't see myself revisiting it too soon, so I may as well get a few things off my chest, while it's still somewhat fresh in my mind.

Dani, I had much the same reactions to the scene you referred to in this episode.

Spoilers for Gemini:

Spoiler:

I found it very hard to believe that Evil Replicarter, while having no qualms about shooting Daniel in the blink of an eye, would not only hesitate in shooting Jack in the same way, but would also get teary-eyed about it. Are we supposed to believe that Replicarter's reasons for reacting in this way is because of how the real Sam feels for Jack? That the real Sam's feelings for Jack is so strong that this has transferred to the replicator mind, making it so that she tries her best not to kill him but ultimately she has no choice but to give in? With teary eyes as a result of that? Gah!
Either Replicarter should have taken out both Daniel and Jack in the same manner, or they should have had her hesitate in killing Daniel too. It's exactly these types of scenes, where the underlying 'ship' of it all, completely ruins my enjoyment of the show.

[Dani347]

Dani, I had much the same reactions to the scene you referred to in this episode.

Spoilers for Gemini:

Spoiler:

Either Replicarter should have taken out both Daniel and Jack in the same manner, or they should have had her hesitate in killing Daniel too. It's exactly these types of scenes, where the underlying 'ship' of it all, completely ruins my enjoyment of the show.

Spoiler:

Exactly! That all of SG1 is close, and that it might sometimes have an effect on their actions, I think the show has shown that before. But, to limit it to only Jack just cheapens it. I mean, I don't want any indication of this so called special feeling between Jack and Sam whatsoever, but there has to be a less insulting way to do it than this.

[sueKay]

Just popping in for a moment. Don't kill me

I too had a problem with

Spoiler:

Sam shooting Daniel as if he meant nothing to her. I think that she had got psyched up by fifth prior to being sent into that hallucination, but she'd lost the will to do what fifth was asking her to do by the time Jack appeared. I think if Jack had been at the bottom of the ramp instead of Daniel, she would have shot him without hesitation, then hesitated with Daniel.

I think the part with Replicarter crying, was her crying for all the people she'd just 'killed'

Just my two pence worth. I'll butt out now.

[Mr Prophet]

Spoiler:

Exactly! That all of SG1 is close, and that it might sometimes have an effect on their actions, I think the show has shown that before. But, to limit it to only Jack just cheapens it. I mean, I don't want any indication of this so called special feeling between Jack and Sam whatsoever, but there has to be a less insulting way to do it than this.

You suffer under a sad delusion. Clearly only Jack matters - and possibly not just to Sam! After all, he's magic DNA man with the magic DNA! The Asgard love him; the President loves him; even Kinsey harbours secret desire for him! The PTB certainly have a bit of a crush on him.

Does anyone else feel that it really should be Sam that Thor is closest to?

[Shipperahoy]

even Kinsey harbours secret desire for him! The PTB certainly have a bit of a crush on him.

And thank you so much for putting that lovely thought into my head.

[Ship Nana]

Spoiler for Gemini

If it makes you feel any better I pretty much agree with you.

Spoiler:

I find that scene to be really disturbing. I tell myself that it was RC and that, of course, Sam wouldn't shoot any of her teamates in real life. RC is evil Sam is not. But it still disturbs me that it's what she would choose to show to Sam to get her to believe that RC has really betrayed Fifth. I really don't think that Sam would harm any of her friends for Jack's sake and I don't like that the writers made that open for interpretation.

I haven't seen the episode either but

Spoiler:

It also disturbs me that RC would shoot her other teammates without a second thought. Maybe it was to show how RC may have started with Sam's traits but she has gone off in a totally different direction than our Sam. And this just illustrates the differences between our Sam and RC.

Just a thought!

[Dani347]

even Kinsey harbours secret desire for him!

Excuse me. I have to scrub my eyes out with soap.

[Mr Prophet]

And thank you so much for putting that lovely thought into my head.

You're welcome.

[Madeleine]

I have a Fix for That Scene in Gemini, if anyone's interested :

Spoiler:

It was not Sam's vision, it was RC's. And RC is not Sam, she's an avatar of what Fifth would like Sam to be, based upon his own imperfect understanding of Sam. RC has been schooled by Fifth to think of her brethren as valuable but ultimately dispensable tools. He has however taught her total loyalty to her commander, ie Fifth. Okay, RC shrugged the lesson off, but it was still there.

RC applied these notions to Sam's life, 'killing' Daniel with some hesitation, but showing a much stronger reaction to having to kill Jack, because RC's knowledge of Sam is ultimately only RC's knowledge of herself, and that is how RC would expect a more moral version of herself to behave and feel.

It works fine for me, because Sam is not so utterly careless of Daniel in other eps, so the fault is very clearly that of RC. I doubt that what I've written is anything like what the writers had in mind, but my way makes more sense to me than taking it at face value.

[Shipperahoy]

Thanks for that Madeleine. That makes me feel a little better about that scene. I much prefer that to what I first saw in that scene.

[eye of botox]

You suffer under a sad delusion. Clearly only Jack matters - and possibly not just to Sam! After all, he's magic DNA man with the magic DNA! The Asgard love him; the President loves him; even Kinsey harbours secret desire for him! The PTB certainly have a bit of a crush on him.

Made my whole freakin' day. Kinsey is sooooo in love with O'Neill...We only hurt the ones we love...




and er, as an Exec-Producer, isn't he one of the PTBs? Narcisisium, It ain't just greek to me....

[Dani347]

We only hurt the ones we love...

Then, Sam doesn't love Jack! She wouldn't hurt him in a million years.

[astronomicalchick]

Just popping in for a moment. Don't kill me

I too had a problem with

Spoiler:

Sam shooting Daniel as if he meant nothing to her. I think that she had got psyched up by fifth prior to being sent into that hallucination, but she'd lost the will to do what fifth was asking her to do by the time Jack appeared. I think if Jack had been at the bottom of the ramp instead of Daniel, she would have shot him without hesitation, then hesitated with Daniel.

I think the part with Replicarter crying, was her crying for all the people she'd just 'killed'

Just my two pence worth. I'll butt out now.

I was watching it from the view of someone who was a S/J shipper (now I'm just apathetic), and it looked pretty shippy to me, but that was a good explanation for it Suekay and so was Madelaine's and if it helps then go with it. When I watched that scene I was surprised at how shippy it appeared to me, but don't forget I have super-ship radar and have been known to see ship in a pile of old cabbages. I was happy for the shippers because I had some good times in the ship thread, before I up and left home, but that part of my mind, that is anti-ship thought that

Spoiler:

it was a good argument for not having shipness in a command situation because it looked like Sam's feelings for Jack had been exploited to manipulate her. Now, that's not good is it? You never know Sam might realise that, and decide to move on so that doesn't happen again... However, what is apparent to me, that ship is now responsible for causing a direct threat to Earth

Am I getting apocalyptic?

The rest of the ship was subtle - why don't the PTB get the hint that subtle=good? They'd better not screw up Atlantis... grrrrr!!!!!

[Dani347]

Spoiler:

itagain... However, what is apparent to me, that ship is now responsible for causing a direct threat to Earth

Am I getting apocalyptic?

Spoiler:

Hasn't it already been established by two AU's that ship is a direct treat to earth? Two AU's, two earth's ruined, two times Jack and Sam were involved. The writing's not on the wall, it's written in neon hot pink with dancing show girls surrounding it

I don't know if that necessarily needs to be in a spoiler, but since I was responding to a spoiler, better safe than sorry.