Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[ShadowMaat]

I didn't want ship on SG-1 and I don't want it on Atlantis. Sex is NOT the point of the missions, love is NOT the focus of the show. It's SCI FI. Can romance work in a scifi setting? Yeah, but the writers have to be competent. IMO, SG-1 proves that TPTB can't handle ship well.

John and Aeryn had chemistry. Ship was built into the backbone of the show and (IMO) until the last season, it didn't detract from the show.

The way I see it, ship on SG-1 (and potentially in Atlantis) is NOT part of the backbone. It was, in SG-1's case, more or less shoved in along the way, more as an afterthought and a way of filling airtime rather than as some meaningful way of understanding the characters and furthering the plot. My opinion.

I don't see Shep/Teyla, I don't see Shep/Weir, and I don't WANT to see it. Keep ship off my Stargate.

[NightGloom]

Another thing with Farscape is that it didn't push major storylines off to the side to make ship (imo, a very MINOR storyline- if that) the prominent storyline in a show... *cough* Chimera *cough* *cough*

[LoneStar1836]

I'm as much Anti Sam/Jack ship as ever, and will continue to be so but there are ships that have worked for me in other shows. The Aeryn/Crichton relationship was such an integral part of the Farscape storyline that it never even occured to me not to want them to be together. Not to mention that the writing was there. The chemistry was there. Wow, was the chemistry there! The screen was close to setting itself on fire when they were together. Same thing with Buffy/Angel (s1-3). Very much a part of the overall storyline and sparks, sparks flying everywhere. Them being together didn't hurt the story; if anything it made it even better. Those two pairings are the examples that I first and foremost come to think of where ship definitely worked. IMO, of course.

Well I definitely share that opinion and love your description with all the fire and sparks. It's a wonder my TV didn't incinerate. I shipped for those two pairings before I even new the term “ship” existed.

But

DOWN with Sam/Jack ship! Have to stay positive because this is an anti-ship thread and all.

There are episodes I will probably never rewatch, solely due to the shippyness and what they mean in terms of character development.

Okay I’m not quite that rabid anti-ship because I will pretty much rewatch any episode. Even the dreaded D&C and Grace, but I still cringe and swear at the TV to reaffirm my vitriol of ship.

As for Atlantis ship, there is zero Shep/Teyla ship. But…...........…. I kind of see just a smidgen of possible Shep/Weir ship. But just a smidgen. Someone please hit me up side the head with a bat (no not the flying mammal kind) to get ride of even that notion. If the track record holds true since these are the same writers, the ship will just get butchered and in turn butcher the show. I’m all for the UST if written nicely, but blatant ship does not work for me on Stargate. Go explore some planet or something and not each other. Otherwise why include the word "Stargate" in the title of the show.

[astronomicalchick]

I don't see Shep/Teyla, I don't see Shep/Weir, and I don't WANT to see it. Keep ship off my Stargate.

((((((Sha)))))), (((((((shad)))))))) oh keep still Shadow I'm trying to give you a hug!!

I don't want to see ship on Stargate too, knowing how badly it's been handled in the past, I'm quite happy to play with Shep/Weir in my head and in fanfic, thank you very much...

however, I would like to see relationships explored as part of the mix, not romantic ones but friendships and the like. I would like to see Sheppard/Weir working relationship and friendship explored in more detail and how McKay gets on with the rest of the team and develops as a character (that's my two priorities). Is that allowed?

but first priorities, good stories and sci fic...

[astronomicalchick]

Well I definitely share that opinion and love your description with all the fire and sparks. It's a wonder my TV didn't incinerate. I shipped for those two pairings before I even new the term “ship” existed.

But

DOWN with Sam/Jack ship! Have to stay positive because this is an anti-ship thread and all.


As for Atlantis ship, there is zero Shep/Teyla ship. But…...........…. I kind of see just a smidgen of possible Shep/Weir ship. But just a smidgen. Someone please hit me up side the head with a bat (no not the flying mammal kind) to get ride of even that notion. If the track record holds true since these are the same writers, the ship will just get butchered and in turn butcher the show. I’m all for the UST if written nicely, but blatant ship does not work for me on Stargate. Go explore some planet or something and not each other. Otherwise why include the word "Stargate" in the title of the show.

I loved Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike, they both worked as far as I could see. Although Spike was my favourite cos he was so blond and bad...

hmmmm

er herm...

Passes Lonestar bat.. will this do?

[Deborah]

I'm as much Anti Sam/Jack ship as ever, and will continue to be so but there are ships that have worked for me in other shows. The Aeryn/Crichton relationship was such an integral part of the Farscape storyline that it never even occured to me not to want them to be together. Not to mention that the writing was there. The chemistry was there. Wow, was the chemistry there! The screen was close to setting itself on fire when they were together. Same thing with Buffy/Angel (s1-3). Very much a part of the overall storyline and sparks, sparks flying everywhere. Them being together didn't hurt the story; if anything it made it even better. Those two pairings are the examples that I first and foremost come to think of where ship definitely worked. IMO, of course.

So, imagine my surprise when I saw the potential for ship between Sheppard/Weir in The Eye and actually didn't object to it. I was flabbergasted (neat word, had to work that in there ) at myself and have even ventured into said ship thread to have some discussions about it. I was very clear that I approached this from the "I like what I saw, but I'm still treading along very carefully here" angle. There was a question raised about the possibility of being an anti-shipper on one show and a shipper on another.

That was interesting to me, because I have been so very, very Anti Sam/Jack that it didn't even occur to me that I could possibly feel different towards Sheppard/Weir. I feel like there is an intriguing dynamic between these two characters, I also feel like the chemistry is there - albeit not in the way that the abovementioned A/C and B/A share (but that's pretty much impossible to top and there have, after all, only been half a season's worth of episodes of Atlantis, so any comparison between them is a bit unfair). There is also the business of worrying about the writing, because even though the shows - and the characters - are different, it is still a Stargate show. Therefore my main concern is that if they pursue any type of ship between Sheppard and Weir, then they will eventually paint themselves into a corner. Just as they have with the ship on SG-1. So, there's that.

I don't want any will they/won't they scenes stretching out for what seems like forever with the main characters on Atlantis. Honestly, I'm not even sure WHAT I want, at this point. I DO know that I'm enjoying their scenes together and that the particular scene I'm referring to in The Eye was very sweet. Sooo... not a shipper, but not exactly an anti-shipper either. Somewhere in between and on slightly new territory I'd say.

Still an Anti Sam/Jack shipper to the core, though.

First of all, I have to admit, I'm a shipper...and no, I'm not lost. Normally, I don't stray far from the ship threads but your post intrigued me.

Before I start, I completely respect the anti-shipper opinion. I agree that the writing and the 'Pete plot-device' have worried me too. The Sam/Jack relationship has been handled clumsily at times, perhaps partly out of trying to find a suitable balance.

That's what interested me about your post. You mentioned that you enjoyed the Buffy/Angel and Aeryn/Crichton relationships because they were more integral to the story. Do you think the Sam and Jack relationship doesn't work because (even though its a show about humanity) its just written badly? Its not overt/integral enough? There are so few scenes that there's no chance for chemistry/passion? Or that the Stargate/team should be given complete centre-stage? If that was the case, its interesting that anti-Sam/Jack shippers should ship for/or enjoy the Shep/Weir relationship? Perhaps its the frat regs, Shep and Weir don't have that restriction, so there's not this constant skirting or 'will-they'/'won't-they' season after season.

I know its down to personal preference but what do you think?

[NightGloom]

First of all, I have to admit, I'm a shipper...and no, I'm not lost. Normally, I don't stray far from the ship threads but your post intrigued me.

Before I start, I completely respect the anti-shipper opinion. I agree that the writing and the 'Pete plot-device' have worried me too. The Sam/Jack relationship has been handled clumsily at times, perhaps partly out of trying to find a suitable balance.

That's what interested me about your post. You mentioned that you enjoyed the Buffy/Angel and Aeryn/Crichton relationships because they were more integral to the story. Do you think the Sam and Jack relationship doesn't work because (even though its a show about humanity) its just written badly? Its not overt/integral enough? There are so few scenes that there's no chance for chemistry/passion? Or that the Stargate/team should be given complete centre-stage? If that was the case, its interesting that anti-Sam/Jack shippers should ship for/or enjoy the Shep/Weir relationship? Perhaps its the frat regs, Shep and Weir don't have that restriction, so there's not this constant skirting or 'will-they'/'won't-they' season after season.

I know its down to personal preference but what do you think?

Here's my personal opinion...
Farscape started out as... well, Farscape- I really don't have any other word for it. John/Aeryn had major chemistry right from the start and it wasn't against regs. It was also like "Love in Space" so they could spend a part of an episode on it and it wouldn't get boring like "Love on Earth" would because it was so different than the everyday relationships that you see in almost every television show. I also do not see any chemistry whatsoever between S&J. The show is also called Stargate SG-1- about the entire team and not just a fraction of it. Even though characters have episodes that focus mainly on them, but most of those episodes promote major character development, ship (imo) does not.

Nope, don't like the Shep/Weir ship either. Stargate just isn't the type of show to have a major ship storyline.

[Liv]

That's what interested me about your post. You mentioned that you enjoyed the Buffy/Angel and Aeryn/Crichton relationships because they were more integral to the story. Do you think the Sam and Jack relationship doesn't work because (even though its a show about humanity) its just written badly? Its not overt/integral enough? There are so few scenes that there's no chance for chemistry/passion? Or that the Stargate/team should be given complete centre-stage?

I'll start with your question on why I, personally, don't think that Sam/Jack work.

First of all, the ship - as has been stated by others - can't go anywhere. Not within the boundaries of the shows. The regs are there, and they're there for a reason. Since it can't go anywhere, it stalls. It spins around in a circle; with clumsy scenes of "we can't go there, but we'll continue to hint about it in not so subtle ways" as a result. We'll continue throwing in shippy scenes here and there, even though there's no reason for it to be there.

Secondly, I see NO romantic chemistry between them, whatsoever. Obviously, that's all in the eye of the beholder. I won't be able to change your mind about this any more than you will change mine. It's just not there for me. At all. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Nuh uh. And if there's no chemistry, then there's no ship.

Thirdly, (hey, I'll just keep on going here ) I don't feel like they would start off a relationship on very even grounds. Jack has been her superior officer for eight years now. She calls him 'Sir', he refers to her as 'Colonel' or 'Carter'. Again, this is only my opinion, but it weirds me out a bit to think of them pursuing a relationship on a personal and intimite level when they've had this kind of established chain of command for so long.

And yes, I do think it has cut into the show and damaged some of the ongoing storylines. S7, in particular.

Now, my examples of Aeryn/Chrichton and Buffy/Angel were more of a response to Beta Candy's post about how ultimately every ship in tv land is destined to fail. I can't really compare these two ships with Sheppard/Weir because the basis of these three shows are very different and so the ships within these shows are very different as well. It got mixed in there, but my intention with those couples was to show that not every ship on the small screen is doomed, in the eyes of the viewers.

If that was the case, its interesting that anti-Sam/Jack shippers should ship for/or enjoy the Shep/Weir relationship? Perhaps its the frat regs, Shep and Weir don't have that restriction, so there's not this constant skirting or 'will-they'/'won't-they' season after season.

The definition of being a 'shipper' is also different from person to person. Like I said, I'm not exactly a shipper of Shep/Weir, but I'm not exactly an anti-shipper either. Somewhere in between. Very convenient of me, isn't it?

Spoilers for Hot Zone:

Spoiler:

For instance, I loved the fact that there was conflict between them in this episode. I loved the fact that they didn't quite resolve things. I don't want mushy stuff. I don't want love scenes. That's not what the show is about.

I'm not saying that I want the writers to incorporate ship between them, because honestly, look how well that worked out on SG-1.

All I'm saying is that I like their interaction. I like their chemistry together. I like the way that JF and TH play it. And I like having discussions about it. Other than that, I'm more than happy to leave it all up to the imagination and to our own individual interpretation.

You might want to check out my posts in the Sheppard/Weir ship discussion thread to see more about my position on this.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=5763

Melyanna and I had an interesting discussion about certain scenes in The Eye and how they could be interpreted. Her being a shipper and me approaching it from more of an anti-shipper angle, we both gave our own personal read on how we saw those scenes from a different perspective.

Hope this anwered some of your questions.

[Madeleine]

That's what interested me about your post. You mentioned that you enjoyed the Buffy/Angel and Aeryn/Crichton relationships because they were more integral to the story. Do you think the Sam and Jack relationship doesn't work because (even though its a show about humanity) its just written badly? Its not overt/integral enough? There are so few scenes that there's no chance for chemistry/passion? Or that the Stargate/team should be given complete centre-stage?

Good question. Here is my opinion

Farscape is the story of - among other things - how John Crichton finds himself in a totally alien environment and makes a new life for himself. Part of his new life is falling in love. I'm a J/A shipper, cos as well as contributing to some interesting stories they have chemistry like nothing else on TV. But I'm not a J/Aer to the point of desperately wanting them to end up together. If they did I'd like it, but if they get split up in an interesting Farscapey way I'll be almost as happy.

BtVS is the story of - among other things - how a girl with a destiny becomes a woman of great power. Part of her growing up was to find her first love, and lose it. How she handled all that, and how she grew through having to watch her love become a monster, having to kill him, having to fall for him all over again and then send him away, how to deal with him as an ex... all that was marvellous to watch, very poignant, very epic. I was never actually a B/A shipper cos I didn't really care whether they ended together, but wow there were some great stories along the way.

Firefly was written with a married couple among the main characters. The show was built around them as much as around any part of Firefly's pilot ep. Zoe & Wash are too integral and too interesting for me not to be a Z/W shipper. They're the only couple in SF (that I can think of) who were together before the show starts, which gives them that extra bit of individuality.

Stargate, however, is about the exploration, the fight against the goa'uld, the SGC's trials and tribulations in keeping Earth safe and making discoveries.... And the characters' relationships with each other are an important part of the show, yes: the Jack / Daniel or Jack / Teal'c banter, Sam & Jacob, Janet & Sam, all matter. But they serve the show best as a supporting theme, not the focus. Stargate was not designed for romance in the way that the three shows mentioned above were.

I don't think Jack and Sam have an ounce of romantic chemistry together. But even if I thought they had a bucketful, I'd be pretty half-hearted in my 'ship', just cos Stargate doesn't need it (as the three shows above did), Stargate wasn't designed for it, and it would be tacky and cliched to simply ship the leading male and leading female when there's no actual reason for it.

[DJFavorite]

Stargate, however, is about the exploration, the fight against the goa'uld, the SGC's trials and tribulations in keeping Earth safe and making discoveries.... And the characters' relationships with each other are an important part of the show, yes: the Jack / Daniel or Jack / Teal'c banter, Sam & Jacob, Janet & Sam, all matter. But they serve the show best as a supporting theme, not the focus. Stargate was not designed for romance in the way that the three shows mentioned above were.

I don't think Jack and Sam have an ounce of romantic chemistry together. But even if I thought they had a bucketful, I'd be pretty half-hearted in my 'ship', just cos Stargate doesn't need it (as the three shows above did), Stargate wasn't designed for it, and it would be tacky and cliched to simply ship the leading male and leading female when there's no actual reason for it.

I totally agree. Even though I could say I'm and Daniel/Sha're shipper, there was really no way for thier relationship to go any other way than the way it did. Daniel's search for Sha're was good subplot for thier exploration. But he never really could find her and keep her. If it did happen, thier relationship would have always gotten in the way or Daniel would have stopped going on missions or even returned to Abydos. Then what would the fun be in that.

In the same reasoning, there can not be romance of any sort between the team members. If it was Sam and Daniel, I would feel the same way. It just shouldn't be there. It detracts from the primary story of Stargate.

[ShadowMaat]

Do you think the Sam and Jack relationship doesn't work because (even though its a show about humanity) its just written badly? Its not overt/integral enough? There are so few scenes that there's no chance for chemistry/passion? Or that the Stargate/team should be given complete centre-stage? If that was the case, its interesting that anti-Sam/Jack shippers should ship for/or enjoy the Shep/Weir relationship?

It's badly written, it takes over every plot and there are too MANY shippy scenes for my tastes.Stargate/the team should be the focus of the stories, that's why it's called Stargate SG-1 not the Sam & Jack Love Show or As the Stargate Turns.

As I've said before, I think Sam and Jack have all the romantic chemistry of a couple of rocks. I don't think they could possibly work as a couple and I cannot imagine what they could possible see in the other to make them attracted.

Sam and Jack have destroyed Stargate for me. Or, more accurately, the writers have destroyed it. I basically can't watch the show anymore because there's so much non-central crap cluttering up the show. The Sam/Jack and /Pete/Jack BS wastes huge amounts of screen time that I feel would be better spent on something like... oh, I don't know... A PLOT?! Maybe some by-the-gods actual character development instead of the wishy-washy emotional roller coaster we're being subjected to?

There's a lot more wrong with the show (IMO) than just ship... but ship is a large part of it. I feel that TPTB have sacrificed their integrity and worse- they've sacrificed the intergrity of the characters in order to force ship upon us in the most convoluted and unrealistic manners possible. They wrench storylines far out of balance- or worse, they MAKE UP stories- soley to support ship.

Even the non-shippy plots are getting too ridiculous for my tastes and I think the writers have over-stretched their abilities. Ship has become their fallback, their security blanket. When all else fails, they throw in some ship and that fills the pages that earns everyone their nice fat paychecks.

It isn't about what's good for the show or what's "right" for the characters, it's all about money. Money, money, money. IMO, if they truly still cared about the show, they'd let it end. NOW. While it still has a chance to end gracefully. Then they could concentrate their full attention on Atlantis and build it into the next phenomenon of a series. But no, instead we get the act of desperation that will be season 9.

All my personal interpretation of things, but while S/J ship may not be the root of all evil on Stargate, it is definitely one of the leading causes. For me.

[LoneStar1836]

I don't think Jack and Sam have an ounce of romantic chemistry together. But even if I thought they had a bucketful, I'd be pretty half-hearted in my 'ship', just cos Stargate doesn't need it (as the three shows above did), Stargate wasn't designed for it, and it would be tacky and cliched to simply ship the leading male and leading female when there's no actual reason for it.

That's the best summary for why I don't see ship and don't want ship on Stargate. I don't see the chemistry which is mainly lacking in the male element of the ship. AT can act her heart out, but I don't quite see it from RDA. And ship has just about ruined AT's character for me. Just because there is a woman on the show does not mean she is required to pine over the lead male. This is all just my opinion. (For some reason I feel compelled to point that out today. )

I loved Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike, they both worked as far as I could see. Although Spike was my favourite cos he was so blond and bad...

hmmmm

er herm...

Passes Lonestar bat.. will this do?

That will do nicely. Thanks for knocking some sense into me.

I always liked Spike, but was kind of hesitant with the B/S relationship aspect, but like you said it seemed to work, but I always preferred B/A.

[Deborah]

I think it was Martin Wood in the commentary for Heroes Part 2 who said that "if you're in a foxhole with someone, you either grow to love them or grow to hate them." I believe that was his explanation for why Sam and Jack have this attraction whether the individual audience member sees chemistry between the actors or not.

Yes, its about the Stargate and yes, its about SG1 but its also about the military and being at war. Whether you think it should be there or not, if you're fighting alongside someone, you're probably going to develop abnormal feelings for them, be they feelings of hostility, friendship or romance.

It just wouldn't be realistic if they didn't address that in some form. SG1 is basically one big metaphor for studying the human psyche, the explorations to alien planets catalise their feelings so that the audience can see what happens between four people when they're put in extraordinary situations, its not just about the extraordinary situations themselves, you wouldn't need SG1 at all if that was the case.

I guess it comes down to how well its written and acted that determines whether or not its suitable for the show.

[LoneStar1836]

I guess it comes down to how well its written and acted that determines whether or not its suitable for the show.

I totally agree with you there. And I'll toss in: that it also depends on whether it's an appropriate aspect for the show to explore or not.

[astronomicalchick]

The definition of being a 'shipper' is also different from person to person. Like I said, I'm not exactly a shipper of Shep/Weir, but I'm not exactly an anti-shipper either. Somewhere in between. Very convenient of me, isn't it?

Spoilers for Hot Zone:

Spoiler:

For instance, I loved the fact that there was conflict between them in this episode. I loved the fact that they didn't quite resolve things. I don't want mushy stuff. I don't want love scenes. That's not what the show is about.

I'm not saying that I want the writers to incorporate ship between them, because honestly, look how well that worked out on SG-1.

All I'm saying is that I like their interaction. I like their chemistry together. I like the way that JF and TH play it. And I like having discussions about it. Other than that, I'm more than happy to leave it all up to the imagination and to our own individual interpretation.

You might want to check out my posts in the Sheppard/Weir ship discussion thread to see more about my position on this.

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=5763

Melyanna and I had an interesting discussion about certain scenes in The Eye and how they could be interpreted. Her being a shipper and me approaching it from more of an anti-shipper angle, we both gave our own personal read on how we saw those scenes from a different perspective.

Hope this anwered some of your questions.

Liv, I think I've given you some of my shippyness and you've given me some of your anti-shipness, because I'm beginning to see these scenes from the anti-ship angle..and I totally agree with you!



*faints*