Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Crow T. Robot]

While a totally agree with the above, I do feel it behooves me to point out that men, even big, well build 6 footers, can be raped. That rape is nothing to do with what someone looks like or how big or strong they are. It might be physically easier to rape a smaller person but a rapists motives are complex and physical vunerability might not a motivating force behind the assault.

Very true and I wasn’t by any means trying to imply that it doesn’t happen to men.

I was just trying to point out there are times a writer need to take in to account the differences in the sexes when writing a scene. It’s like because of certain female anatomy parts Sam’s going to a little slower on the draw pulling from a waist holder than a man is. Sam on the other side could walk something the equivalent of a balance beam because as a woman she has a lower center of gravity than a man.

I'm not completely sure that Sam, even though I understand what you mean by 'cut and run' would be any easier for a fanfic writer to work into that situation. Somehow, I think an attacker would have to take her down hard and fast or she'd do him a lot of damage, more so than a man might when threatened.

Well speaking as a woman that barely tops five feet...

I can’t see either Sam OR Daniel being ‘easy’ targets of opportunity. <G> Of course I can’t for the life of me follow how any author can call Sam ‘dainty, delicate, or petite’ either I’d be looking up at her. Sam being a easier victim because she is a woman is just slightly more believable than Daniel who ranks in bigger and has more muscle mass than the average 5’8 man.

As for ‘Cut and Run” a good friend of mine is in the Army and in basic they train female recruits to ‘fight smart’. They essentially tell you a man is going to over power a woman muscle, arm reach weight, and leverage matters when you’re fighting hand-to-hand for your life. The military teaches techniques to take an opponent fast and hard and go for either help or a gun. Unless they hold a weapon on you. If that happens: do what you have to survive. But they train women if given the choice don’t stay and try to engage hand-to-hand. They train men that way too but they really stress it with the female recruits.

There’s a couple of real life cases where fully trained female Marines (And last I checked Marines hand-to-hand qualifications were a lot tougher than the Air Force) were kidnapped off of military bases by untrained civilian men raped and killed. Hand-to-hand training did nothing for those women.

And if someone tried it with Janet, oh, I'd pay to see our feisty little doctor rip his nadgers off (she's a doctor, they know where it hurts).

LOL! Janet wouldn’t even try hand-to-hand. She’d go for a gun. AND she’d aim low. Janet’s stated a couple of times anything she inflicts she doesn’t fix either.

While I find Protective!Jack appealling, I don't find the wussification of Daniel (and if I read Het, by extension, Sam) at all interesting. I like my Daniel with balls, thank you very much.

FF enjoying this discussion very much.

LOL! Now that’s kind of interesting because I’ll agree with the wussification of Daniel in a lot of slash. With the ship I’ve read I’ve seen more the wussification of Jack than Sam. Yeah ship writers do tend to ‘girl’ up Sam at times. In a few stories I’ve read they manage to make Jack the girl friend Sam never had than a ‘Guy’.

Sometimes I think the biggest difference between the Shippers and the Nonshippers can be melted down to Romantic vs Nonromantic. Do you view love as something that happens to you and love at first sight OR do you view love as a conscious choice?

You know love is the days you go home despite the fact you want to kill your significant other because the crawfish he was raising for fishing bait climbed out of the tank, crawled under all your basement fixtures and died. Your house smells like something fishy was butchered in the basement and your neighbors are snooping around trying to decide if the cops are necessary to investigate the smell. My grandmother tends to argue love is the second one. 25 years later and her basement still has that slight ‘fishy’ odor.

[Crow T. Robot]

imo, if a fanfic writer wants to write a crap characterisation of a male, let 'em. It's fanfic. They can write rubbish for all I care. But a pro ought to take note of what he/she is good at - and what his/her limits are - and write accordingly. They're getting paid. They're getting paid to know and getting paid to use that insight to help them write well.

I wasn’t trying to compare the amateurs and the pros honestly. I was just trying to point out that women seem to have a lot more tolerance for bad male character writing than bad female character writing.

Just imagine for a moment what would happen on a few list IF a writer posted a story that butchers or wussifies Sam like the Beagle Chronicles of Jackie and Danielle? Am I the only one that could smell the smoke from the flames already?

Comparing Pros with Pros I don’t know if any of you follow “Rescue Me” on FX or not but the fire storm that followed that show all summer would be another good example of the same double standard when it comes to the writing of female characters.

[Crow T. Robot]

I do have one friend who was a Jack/Sam shipper for about a year (before she decided that she didn't like them together romantically) and she used to tell me how often those stories had Jack quitting and them buying a house together and having 2 kids and a dog.

You know? That’s an old chest nut of slash too. Jack quits his career so he can be with him 24/7.

LOL! How long you’d think that would last without either Sam or Daniel killing him? Or Jack losing his mind from complete boredom? Sometimes I think it comes from the roots that Sam or Daniel’s work and career is perceived as more important than Jack’s.

[scarimor]

I wasn’t trying to compare the amateurs and the pros honestly. I was just trying to point out that women seem to have a lot more tolerance for bad male character writing than bad female character writing.

Ah, I understand now

Just imagine for a moment what would happen on a few list IF a writer posted a story that butchers or wussifies Sam like the Beagle Chronicles of Jackie and Danielle? Am I the only one that could smell the smoke from the flames already?

Fortunately I am not familiar with this Beagle Chronicles of Jackie and Danielle phenomenon ( ), but I can infer the comparison Yes, smoke, hot kindling, and charred flesh already!

Comparing Pros with Pros I don’t know if any of you follow “Rescue Me” on FX or not but the fire storm that followed that show all summer would be another good example of the same double standard when it comes to the writing of female characters.

Not familiar with that one.

[JessM]

What bothers me about S8 especially in regards to the J/S ship is that I think S8 could've really dealt with Carter's issues about finally being the lead of her team and showing how competent she was out there. While they did show that a little, IMO it became greatly overshadowed by the increased concentration on her love life. Even Jacob dying ended up so much about J/S which from a friendship angle wouldn't bother me but unfortunately I have no doubt that they meant them to be shippy moments especially since they oh so conveniently didn't have Teal'c or Daniel around.

That's a very good point. I was disappointed that they had all that stuff about her love life overshadow how she was adjusting to leading the team and etc. So much about Threads seemed wrong to me... setting aside the fact that Jacob told Sam he really should have died two years ago (or maybe it was 4? something like that), when he'd been host to Selmak for 6 years, I thought the sort of reversal he did from Grace was pretty odd. He told her she needed to move on, and now it was almost like he was giving her his blessing to be with Jack. At the time I chalked it up to his dying and not being in his right mind.

I don't remember where I read this but didn't Amanda once try telling the writers to just write Samantha as though they would a male character and she'd take it from there? I could be wrong but I swear I read or heard that.

That line sounds a bit familiar to me, but I'm not sure where I heard it. I wouldn't put it past her to say that.

Scifi can be a great vehicle to show characters' feelings about things but unfortunately I think a lot of writers tend to think that they need to throw in romance for that. As though feelings automatically equals romance. But I think one of their strongest things HAS been the characters' feelings but it's been from a team and friendship perspective. But IMO they ended up hurting the very thing they did so well when they tried to push romance in there right down to making Jack and Sam's friendship moments seem uncomfortable and awkward since the characters (and even the actors) no longer knew exactly how to interact. I miss the Sam from the earlier seasons before they started making so much about her revolve around her romances.

Exactly. Bringing up Threads again, I've seen some people squeeing over the scene where Sam is watching Jacob from the observation room and Jack puts his arm around her, saying he'll "always" be there for her. I know it was meant to be shippy, but it seemed so awkward to me. Jack did not look comfortable there. I think that could have been a perfectly fine friendship moment, but instead it comes off as uncomfortable (at least to me). Compare that with the scene in Fire and Water when Sam realizes they left Daniel behind and Jack hugs her. Now that was a nice friendship moment. No ship that I could see in there (though others will always tell me otherwise).

[Crow T. Robot]

Hah! 'Too late!' the cry. Anise has already done it. Involved a poodle... I rest my case.

FF

LOL! One reason this poster plans on nominating that story for the Star Gate Fan Awards next year when the story qualifies.

There should be a balance to all things.

If you liked that one. Have you read “General Jack Year Three”? You’d probably really enjoy Jack’s Not-Irish-Wolfhound in that story too. To put it mildly Garmr’s NOT Rin Tin Tin.

[Jace021903]

Sometimes I think the biggest difference between the Shippers and the Nonshippers can be melted down to Romantic vs Nonromantic. Do you view love as something that happens to you and love at first sight OR do you view love as a conscious choice?

You know love is the days you go home despite the fact you want to kill your significant other because the crawfish he was raising for fishing bait climbed out of the tank, crawled under all your basement fixtures and died. Your house smells like something fishy was butchered in the basement and your neighbors are snooping around trying to decide if the cops are necessary to investigate the smell. My grandmother tends to argue love is the second one. 25 years later and her basement still has that slight ‘fishy’ odor.

I think that is a great description of love. I've been married for 16 years and heart and flowers only go so far. You both have to be in it for the long haul and mean it when you say "for better or worse." My husband is one of the good ones and there are still days....

I absolutely think that love is a conscious choice. You may not be able to help who you are attracted to but you can choose who you love. I think the divorce rate is so high because too many people get married on the strength of infatuation and unrealistic expectations. Yes, there are wonderful parts of marriage but there are also really, really difficult parts.

I heard a quote about love once that I just love.

"I like you because....
I love you although..."

[Frostfox]

I can’t see either Sam OR Daniel being ‘easy’ targets of opportunity. <G> Of course I can’t for the life of me follow how any author can call Sam ‘dainty, delicate, or petite’ either I’d be looking up at her.

There are many, many words I'd use for Sam's looks (graceful, beautiful for example) but the idea of her being dainty, delicate or petite... How tall is AT? Petite? Delicate? Dainty? Part of AT's attractiveness is that she's not wafer thin like some actresses. Still, I've read fanfic describing Daniel in those terms too! And that I just can't get my head round..

LOL! Now that’s kind of interesting because I’ll agree with the wussification of Daniel in a lot of slash. With the ship I’ve read I’ve seen more the wussification of Jack than Sam. Yeah ship writers do tend to ‘girl’ up Sam at times. In a few stories I’ve read they manage to make Jack the girl friend Sam never had than a ‘Guy’.

I've never read any S/J, not my cup of tea at all but it's interesting that Jack gets emasculated, the dynamics of fanfic are very interesting.

Sometimes I think the biggest difference between the Shippers and the Nonshippers can be melted down to Romantic vs Nonromantic. Do you view love as something that happens to you and love at first sight OR do you view love as a conscious choice?

Bingo. I think that nails it a lot of the time.
But it's not exclusively that, I, like JessM, don't ship characters on screen (it's not just S/J I have problems with) but don't have any objection to relationship fiction in fanfic. I don't read Het, but I've no problem with other people enjoying it.

I think that is a great description of love. I've been married for 16 years and heart and flowers only go so far. You both have to be in it for the long haul and mean it when you say "for better or worse." My husband is one of the good ones and there are still days....

I absolutely think that love is a conscious choice. You may not be able to help who you are attracted to but you can choose who you love. I think the divorce rate is so high because too many people get married on the strength of infatuation and unrealistic expectations. Yes, there are wonderful parts of marriage but there are also really, really difficult parts.

I heard a quote about love once that I just love.

"I like you because....
I love you although..."

Part of what I admire about Jack and Sam is that they were shown as being emotionally mature enough not to act on their attraction to each other (until they buggered that up by turning Sam into SimperingTwinSetAndPearlsCan'tExistWithouthLUUUUURRRRRVVVVVVSam).
I don't like the relationship at all, for various reasons it was a bad idea on so many levels but I've read Amanda Tapping say that they should just have shagged and got it over with. Act on the attraction, get it out of their systems, get on with their lives, and there's a certain validity in that attitude. I'd rather they hadn't started the mess in the first place but if she feels that they should just get over it, then she might be right. Ye gods, that poor woman must be so sick of her character being defined by the relationship with the shows lead.

Love isn't about hearts and flowers and a pretty wedding and gazing lovingly at him/her and writing your name with his surname and all the stuff you do as a kid when you have a crush. It's not always easy, it takes work, it takes getting past the infatuation to the genuine stuff beneath. It's worth it though.

FF

[Crow T. Robot]

Fortunately I am not familiar with this Beagle Chronicles of Jackie and Danielle phenomenon ( ), but I can infer the comparison Yes, smoke, hot kindling, and charred flesh already!

I should be more respectful to the Beagles considering one story in the series won a Star Gate Fan Fic Award this year.

I can’t understand their appeal but apparently lots of others can.

Anyway....

Not familiar with that one.

“Rescue Me” is a show based around a New York firehouse. Written from a very “Male” point of view. If you are familiar at all with Dennis Leary’s work you’ll understand the tone of the show.

Well this summer the show came under fire for the writing of a rather intense scene between Leary’s character and his soon to be Ex-wife. NOT taking into account that the show’s written the couple as twisted, dysfunctional, and toxic for 2 other seasons, the scene came across as a domestic rape. The protest and fire storm really took the producers and writers by surprise with the accusations of how they portrayed rape in a positive light, didn’t take it as a serious issue, they wrote female characters unrealistically and had no respect for women ect.

Leary the shows star kind of stood up and replied that where was all the fuss about them handling rape lightly when a male character last season was actually chained to the, stated “No” during the attack, and actually used the ‘rape’ to describe the what happened to HIM. Not to mention they didn’t portray the female characters any more messed up then the male ones on the show.

The debate raged across the shows message boards for months. What was kind of interesting was Star Gate was brought up by a couple of fans during the debates. Mainly how the show writers handled date rape in both “Brief Candle” and “Hathor”. Pointing out that if it had happed to Sam rape activist groups would have been up and arms and would have been calling for a few producers heads on pikes for how they handled the subject matter.

[scarimor]

...
The debate raged across the shows message boards for months. What was kind of interesting was Star Gate was brought up by a couple of fans during the debates. Mainly how the show writers handled date rape in both “Brief Candle” and “Hathor”. Pointing out that if it had happed to Sam rape activist groups would have been up and arms and would have been calling for a few producers heads on pikes for how they handled the subject matter.

It's a very good point. And it doesn't just apply to something like the portrayal or rape. For example, the same sexual jokes made by a female character towards a male wouldn't get the time of day if a male made them towards a female.

And it's not just sex. Some writers do treat male and female characters very differently in what they think is appropriate to do to them. In Stargate, females do not get beaten or tortured on screen like males do. And you won't find Sam lying with one hand cuffed to a bed and minus her pants while Cam smiles and observes that she always seems to be losing them. Oh no. Can you imagine?

note: I did find that Cam and Sam scene mildly amusing in MM, but at the same time that I was smiling, I was also wondering to myself if I'd find it mildly amusing the other way round?

Of course, if I thought there was any danger the writers were going to start shipping Sam and Cam in the show, I'd have probably puked instead. Fortunately I don't. I think this one is going to be safely contained in fanfic, if AT has her way.

[Crow T. Robot]

I absolutely think that love is a conscious choice. You may not be able to help who you are attracted to but you can choose who you love. I think the divorce rate is so high because too many people get married on the strength of infatuation and unrealistic expectations. Yes, there are wonderful parts of marriage but there are also really, really difficult parts.

You just boiled down why I’m not any type of shipper really.

You can argue that Jack and Sam are attracted to each other until you’re blue in the face. That doesn’t make it love or a relationship in my book. From everything we’ve seen through the years neither of them is willing to make the sacrifices and take the career hits to make a relationship work.

I tend to agree with you about how people walk in to relationships with unreal expectations these days. It’s kind of scary about how people buy the whole sexual attraction = love that the media, books and movies stuff down our throats.

[Frostfox]

I should be more respectful to the Beagles considering one story in the series won a Star Gate Fan Fic Award this year.

I can’t understand their appeal but apparently lots of others can.

I'm so not a fan but she's totally entitled to her view of the characters and to write what appeals to her. And, as you say, she obviously has her fans.

You just boiled down why I’m not any type of shipper really.

You can argue that Jack and Sam are attracted to each other until you’re blue in the face. That doesn’t make it love or a relationship in my book. From everything we’ve seen through the years neither of them is willing to make the sacrifices and take the career hits to make a relationship work.

Which is why it wasn't really fair on those who do like their relationship to keep teasing them with it. The writers couldn't take the story any further than a frustrating tease without splitting up SG1.
It was frustrating for those who liked the potential relationship as it could never move on or be fufilled in any meaningful manner without loosing the support of the US Airforce (not to mention a big slice of their fanbase).
It was frustraiting to those of us who didn't approve of the thing because they had the bad habit of shoehorning it in inappropriate places, breaking the flow of stories, warping the chraracters to fit, killing other characters to give Sam an excuse to get a hug from Sir (not once, but twice) generally *******ising what made SG1 great. All in the name of a love which just didn't seem to be there, which seemed stilted and awkward, no matter how they throw the chracters at each other and how good AT and RDA are together, they can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
No one has ever given me a convincing argument as to why Sam and Jack would make a good couple apart from it being this magical love story about two starcrossed souls meant to be one. Um, sorry, a realistic relationship such self indugent pandering does not make.

I tend to agree with you about how people walk in to relationships with unreal expectations these days. It’s kind of scary about how people buy the whole sexual attraction = love that the media, books and movies stuff down our throats.

It was different in my grandparents time (my grandparents married in the 1920's, why yes I am that old). Marriage had to work, divorces were difficult to come by, you worked on a relationship until it was good for you (I'm not painting a totally rosy glow here, this meant that people were trapped in bad or abusive relationships) but oftimes this meant that a solid foundation was built from respect and affection as well as just animal attraction and lust. Which is how people like Gertrude and Perceverance Skinner managed 50 happy years (I have photos of me and the family at their Golden Wedding Anniversary party, it was the 1970's, the pictures are a bit scary). It will be interesting in the future to see how many contempary marrages reach 50 years or even the 25 reached by my parents (would have been longer but Dad died that year).
Even if they married, can you imagine Sam and Jack reaching 25 years? Falls of chair laughing at thought. They'd have killed each other, or died of boredom long before then, I think a year might be pushing it.

FF

[Crow T. Robot]

No one has ever given me a convincing argument as to why Sam and Jack would make a good couple apart from it being this magical love story about two starcrossed souls meant to be one. Um, sorry, a realistic relationship such self indugent pandering does not make.

LOL! I think the writers have made a BETTER argument for them being totally unhealthy for each other in a lot of ways.

Let’s see Sam looking like the spitting image of Jack’s ex-wife—who he’s NOT over by every indication. The fact that Jacob they STRONGLY hinted had a problem with the bottle before Sam’s mother died and her mother’s death forced him to turn things around. You throw in that Jack’s implied recovering addict (Need) and Sam falls in to co-dependent needs to please “Daddy” mode around him—BAD MIX! Red flags for both of them should be shooting up all over the place right there.

Can you see Jack opening up to Sam and say talking his bout of depression, his almost eating his gun and later nearly nuking a civilization after Charlie died? This is stuff Sam’s going to have to know about walking in for things to work between them. I just can’t see Jack laying his demons open to view for her like that I think “Lost City” pretty much nailed that point home.

Even if they married, can you imagine Sam and Jack reaching 25 years? Falls of chair laughing at thought. They'd have killed each other, or died of boredom long before then, I think a year might be pushing it.

FF

ROTF! Heck no! No more than I could see Daniel and Vala making it that long.

[Frostfox]

LOL! I think the writers have made a BETTER argument for them being totally unhealthy for each other in a lot of ways.

Let’s see Sam looking like the spitting image of Jack’s ex-wife—who he’s NOT over by every indication. The fact that Jacob they STRONGLY hinted had a problem with the bottle before Sam’s mother died and her mother’s death forced him to turn things around. You throw in that Jack’s implied recovering addict (Need) and Sam falls in to co-dependent needs to please “Daddy” mode around him—BAD MIX! Red flags for both of them should be shooting up all over the place right there.

But, but, it's a LOVE story, don't you see? They did this test on blogthings and came out as soulmates. Sam O'Neill (forget her fabuous career, it's so lovely, she can have lots of babies instead). It's written in the stars so we don't need to worry about the nasty reality of how compatible these people actually are! They are beautiful together, love will conquer all!!(inculding good taste, common sense and that oaths sworn by two members of the US Airforce).
Oh, and you missed out the potential Electra Complex in the above assessment of the various hurdles to a relationship, that was always one which really squicked me out.

Can you see Jack opening up to Sam and say talking his bout of depression, his almost eating his gun and later nearly nuking a civilization after Charlie died? This is stuff Sam’s going to have to know about walking in for things to work between them. I just can’t see Jack laying his demons open to view for her like that I think “Lost City” pretty much nailed that point home.

Not to mention Sam's ticking biological clock. Jack's pretty good with kids but would he really want another, given the trauma of loosing Charlie? Some people do, others don't but it's not a given that he'd want any more kids.

ROTF! Heck no! No more than I could see Daniel and Vala making it that long.

Oh, don't get me started on that can o' worms, I don't like their potential relationship any more than Sam 'n Sir.

FF

[Crow T. Robot]

It's a very good point. And it doesn't just apply to something like the portrayal or rape. For example, the same sexual jokes made by a female character towards a male wouldn't get the time of day if a male made them towards a female.

Let’s take Vala for example. Do you think her sexual jokes and come-ons would be tolerated or even thought funny if Vala was a man? I personally don’t think so.

In Stargate, females do not get beaten or tortured on screen like males do. And you won't find Sam lying with one hand cuffed to a bed and minus her pants while Cam smiles and observes that she always seems to be losing them. Oh no. Can you imagine?

Good point. Never thought about that before.

And I’m just imagining the flames licking list and forums if had been Sam that lost her pants in that scene. But your very right about how writers do handle female very differently on screen.