Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Dani347]

No kidding. One reason why IMHO introducing the Arthurian legends in to Star Gate was the BIGGEST mistake they could have done and why the ‘ship’ is so much more noticeable now than they ever wrote it with Sam and Jack. (And with Sam and Jack it got bad) The Arthurian legends are considered a “Romantic” legends with some very rare exceptions like Mary Stewart and Jack Whyte—both more historical fiction. When your basing your plot off of a Romantic epic—It’s going to trickle down!

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it was the theme that had anything to do with it. I'd say it was the other way around. They were just so excited to have two people who aren't hamstringed by military rules (as Stargate defines them) that they're playing it to the hilt. They always kept dodging in and out of the whole regulations, getting so close and no closer so they could say that they had military stamp of approval. Sam and Jack would most likely still have the same whatever the heck it was even if Jack was there in season 9 (unless they totally chucked the whole regs thing) even with the Arthurian legend. But, Daniel and Vala? I'm guessing they would have written things exactly the same, even if Vala had become a full time cast member in season 8.

Well, there was nice hurt/comfort in it, and the friendship stuff was nice, but it was totally overshadowed by Sam weeping for Jack... "Oh Daniel I MISS him so much!" Why Daniel just didn't say "forget it" and stalk off, I don't know.

Well, aside from the gag inducing weeping, I think there's a medium between having a crying party for Sam, with Daniel painting her toenails and Daniel just turning away. I don't really think it would be out of character for Daniel to offer comfort, even if it is because of the ship. Especially if you're writing Daniel from a season 1-2 pov. I just couldn't see Daniel saying forget it and leaving when someone is crying. Even if it was about that.

[Frostfox]

Oh it can get ugly. I flinch when any author suddenly makes Jack the perfect SNAG of Sam’s dreams. (Sensitive New Age Guy). It is down right nauseating at times. But I can’t say the Shippers are the only ones that do it. Pick up slash some time where again it’s written by women for women. What some authors do to Daniel would make you scream.

Screams with laughter at the idea of Jack as a new age, touchy, feeley man. That's the funniest thing ever. Can you imagine Jack getting intouch with his inner SNAG. So not a pretty sight.
And oh yeah, some slash writers are just as bad, with both Jack and Daniel reduced to cringeworthy parody (dare I whisper the word 'beagles' at this point?) so I'm not going to be holier that thou about it.
Sturgeon's law is universal in fanfic.

FF

[scarimor]

...(dare I whisper the word beagles at this point?)

Don't wanna know

[Frostfox]

Don't wanna know

Don't worry, it's possibly safer for your sanity that way.

FF

[JessM]

No need to be sorry, JessM. I don't think there was a misunderstanding. I used your post as a jumping off point to introduce the idea that gender atypicality is, perhaps, just a symptom of a larger issue: That all characters in romance fic tend to be ... somewhat unreal. IMO. That is, it's not (only) that women write Jack as New Age Guy or that Teal'c & Daniel act 'unmale', etc. because they don't know how to write men (or vice versa).... (gotta dash)

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clarifying!

[JessM]

Well, aside from the gag inducing weeping, I think there's a medium between having a crying party for Sam, with Daniel painting her toenails and Daniel just turning away. I don't really think it would be out of character for Daniel to offer comfort, even if it is because of the ship. Especially if you're writing Daniel from a season 1-2 pov. I just couldn't see Daniel saying forget it and leaving when someone is crying. Even if it was about that.

I know what you're saying. This story took place in season 9 actually (think it might have been a tag for Ex Deus Machina?). I'm not saying it would be out of character for him to offer comfort - not at all. I just didn't like the way he was used in the story. It was pretty lame and was as if he was just being used as someone for Sam to cry to over Jack. He didn't even have an important part in the story. That's what I resented.

I could see him offering comfort and having a nice talk with her about things like this, but it was hardly that. It was to the point where you could have replaced him with Teal'c there or any other male character (apart from Jack of course) and no one would know the difference.

[scarimor]

No need to be sorry, JessM. I don't think there was a misunderstanding. I used your post as a jumping off point to introduce the idea that gender atypicality is, perhaps, just a symptom of a larger issue: That all characters in romance fic tend to be ... somewhat unreal. IMO. That is, it's not (only) that women write Jack as New Age Guy or that Teal'c & Daniel act 'unmale', etc. because they don't know how to write men (or vice versa).... (gotta dash)

I think this is why I don't take to the romance genre in fanfic. I can handle some romance in a wider fic (provided it's not beyond the pale) because it's not the focus of the story, but when it's the central theme the characters I know unravel for me. I don't care for the romance genre in original fiction either.

[JessM]

Screams with laughter at the idea of Jack as a new age, touchy, feeley man. That's the funniest thing ever. Can you imagine Jack getting intouch with his inner SNAG. So not a pretty sight.
And oh yeah, some slash writers are just as bad, with both Jack and Daniel reduced to cringeworthy parody (dare I whisper the word 'beagles' at this point?) so I'm not going to be holier that thou about it.
Sturgeon's law is universal in fanfic.

FF

*ears perk up, not unlike a beagle's* omg, LOL!!!! I know exactly what you're talking about! Hee hee... snicker...

[Frostfox]

Just taking a favorite slash and or shipper chestnut here. (NO offense to any writers that may have used it. I’m not singling anyone out!) Big bad rapist targets poor defenseless Daniel or Sam and Jack must come to the rescue. Now with Sam it doesn’t take much thought plot wise to make it work. A man if determined enough odds are can and will overcome a woman. Doesn’t matter how well a woman’s trained your trained to cut and run. Take the slash angle and the scenario takes a LOT more work and thought. What part of ‘easy victim of opportunity’ does Daniel shout at roughly 6 ft with enough muscle he can rival some American Football players? That’s not even taking in to account Daniel does know how to defend himself AND keeps cool head under pressure. Daniel’s realistically NOT going down easy. To make the big bad rapist scenario work a writer better think out and plot it out very carefully.

There are times where a writer does need to consider differences in the sexes when approaching a plot.

While a totally agree with the above, I do feel it behooves me to point out that men, even big, well build 6 footers, can be raped. That rape is nothing to do with what someone looks like or how big or strong they are. It might be physically easier to rape a smaller person but a rapists motives are complex and physical vunerability might not a motivating force behind the assault.

I'm not completely sure that Sam, even though I understand what you mean by 'cut and run' would be any easier for a fanfic writer to work into that situation. Somehow, I think an attacker would have to take her down hard and fast or she'd do him a lot of damage, moreso than a man might when threatened. And if someone tried it with Janet, oh, I'd pay to see our feisty little doctor rip his nadgers off (she's a doctor, they know where it hurts).

While I find Protective!Jack appealling, I don't find the wussification of Daniel (and if I read Het, by extension, Sam) at all interesting. I like my Daniel with balls, thank you very much.

FF enjoying this discussion very much.

[Crow T. Robot]

I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it was the theme that had anything to do with it. I'd say it was the other way around. They were just so excited to have two people who aren't hamstringed by military rules (as Stargate defines them) that they're playing it to the hilt.

I think it depends on when you see the “Arthurian” romantic elements starting to creep in to the storylines. For me it was season seven when the focus of the show really switched over to the “Quest”. If you have a quest elements in the story it’s almost a given you are going to have some sort of romantic elements in there too. For me season 7 was really the season when the ship started influencing Sam’s behavior and actions. Her character for me started taking a dive (writing wise) roughly about Chimera.

As for Daniel and Vala they are technically bound by rules almost as strong as the ones that regulated Sam’s and Jack’s behavior. Daniel at least falls under the standards of conduct set and conflict of interest policies place on civilian contractors by the Air Force. Daniel and Vala don’t get any more of a free pass for Shipping than Sam and Jack did. The only difference is Daniel’s job with the Air Force would he be terminated instead of being brought up on charges like Jack would be.

I'm guessing they would have written things exactly the same, even if Vala had become a full time cast member in season 8.

Possibly. Honestly I don’t know with these writers any more that if RDA had stayed on full time what they would have done. They threw out “Regs” for years about Sam/Jack. And suddenly starting season 9 they have Father/Daughter serving in the same chain of command. Season 9 onward for me has really become more of a soap opera for me.

[Crow T. Robot]

Screams with laughter at the idea of Jack as a new age, touchy, feeley man. That's the funniest thing ever. Can you imagine Jack getting intouch with his inner SNAG. So not a pretty sight.

ROTFLMAO! Very true. Someone should suggest it to the Diaries writer. That could almost be as much fun as a megalomaniac, health-food obsessed Daniel. How long you think a poetry-spouting, sensitive, new-age Jack would last before an intervention would be call?

And oh yeah, some slash writers are just as bad, with both Jack and Daniel reduced to cringeworthy parody (dare I whisper the word 'beagles' at this point?) FF

Yeah, that was of one of the author’s I was thinking of. Though there’s a couple of Ship writers out there that pretty much neuter Jack too.

I was just trying to point out here there’s a certain amount of…..

How do I put this nicely?

Female arrogance out there about writing. We beat the war drum about men can’t write female characters but I haven’t seen too many female authors pull off writing male characters either. It’s a very obvious double standard.

I’ll respond to the rest later…..

Crow, hitting and running at lunch time.

[Frostfox]

ROTFLMAO! Very true. Someone should suggest it to the Diaries writer. That could almost be as much fun as a megalomaniac, health-food obsessed Daniel. How long you think a poetry-spouting, sensitive, new-age Jack would last before an intervention would be call?

Hah! 'Too late!' the cry. Anise has already done it. Involved a poodle... I rest my case.

FF

[scarimor]

I was just trying to point out here there’s a certain amount of…..

How do I put this nicely?

Female arrogance out there about writing. We beat the war drum about men can’t write female characters but I haven’t seen too many female authors pull off writing male characters either. It’s a very obvious double standard.

I'm not so sure it's a double standard. We readily admit that women have the same problems writing men as vice-versa... don't we? Well, I'm ready But in comparing fanfic writers with the professional writers of a show... imo, if a fanfic writer wants to write a crap characterisation of a male, let 'em. It's fanfic. They can write rubbish for all I care. But a pro ought to take note of what he/she is good at - and what his/her limits are - and write accordingly. They're getting paid. They're getting paid to know and getting paid to use that insight to help them write well.

I’ll respond to the rest later…..

Crow, hitting and running at lunch time.

bon apetit

[DarkDesire]

I had wanted to get out what was bothering me once again when re-watching some of the older seasons and I honestly didn't expect for people to jump in again with such great responses. I just caught up on the last two pages and lots to think about.

What bothers me about S8 especially in regards to the J/S ship is that I think S8 could've really dealt with Carter's issues about finally being the lead of her team and showing how competent she was out there. While they did show that a little, IMO it became greatly overshadowed by the increased concentration on her love life. Even Jacob dying ended up so much about J/S which from a friendship angle wouldn't bother me but unfortunately I have no doubt that they meant them to be shippy moments especially since they oh so conveniently didn't have Teal'c or Daniel around.

Yes it is, but here's where it's more complicated. Romance is about characters' feelings above all else. Scifi is not. So the problem that (most) male writers have writing females doesn't surface in the scifi genre if they steer clear of writing romantic threads. Mostly. If they can keep off the fact that their character is female (and this is perfectly possible when they're concentrating on scifi-ey stuff) the issue doesn't arise.

I don't remember where I read this but didn't Amanda once try telling the writers to just write Samantha as though they would a male character and she'd take it from there? I could be wrong but I swear I read or heard that.

Scifi can be a great vehicle to show characters' feelings about things but unfortunately I think a lot of writers tend to think that they need to throw in romance for that. As though feelings automatically equals romance. But I think one of their strongest things HAS been the characters' feelings but it's been from a team and friendship perspective. But IMO they ended up hurting the very thing they did so well when they tried to push romance in there right down to making Jack and Sam's friendship moments seem uncomfortable and awkward since the characters (and even the actors) no longer knew exactly how to interact. I miss the Sam from the earlier seasons before they started making so much about her revolve around her romances.

[DarkDesire]

D&C is one ep I will not rewatch, the whole "I care about you more than I'm supposed to" felt so contrived like most of the shippy stuff. Jack would have said the same thing if it had been Daniel/Teal'c stuck behind that shield.

Exactly! That has seriously always bothered me because it's like they threw out logic and these characters' friendships in order to try and wedge in the romance. The thing is Jack HAS done potentially dangerous things for Daniel and Teal'c too because again he does care about everyone on his team "more than he should" so it honestly made no sense to me to make that into a romantic statement.

Yes that's one thing I don't get, Jack actually asked Daniel to go fishing first And he even asked Thor........what does that says about Jack, IMO he just wanted some company.....Another thing that often gets said is that scene at the end of Threads where Jack is sitting next to Sam, proof they are together, not so much You can draw your own conclusions from that scene......

Yep, I don't really understand why it turned into this whole big "ship" thing since like you said, Jack asked other people including Daniel first. I didn't think much of them sitting beside each other since I figured they (a) wanted to pull the fake out on people and (b) Daniel and Teal'c were busy getting the much needed beer.

As for the rest of what people have been discussing, I really only read slash but like others pointed out, I tend to be wary unless I know the author's past work because there are too many people who still tend to write a m/m pairing as though there is still a woman involved and unfortunately the character being feminized is usually Daniel. I do have one friend who was a Jack/Sam shipper for about a year (before she decided that she didn't like them together romantically) and she used to tell me how often those stories had Jack quitting and them buying a house together and having 2 kids and a dog. I just can't stand that idea and I'm really apprehensive on what they'll be throwing at us in the final episode or the two movies.