Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[FallenAngelII]

Yeah, Jack did look constipated. I mean, almost every single time Sam's being clingy, Jack's being constipated >_>'.

(Of course, my explanation for it is because he's doing it with Daniel, but I'll leave that to the fanfics)

[luthienberen]

I so undertstand your point of view. From talking to friends who ship various characters, they all have differing views on what they want from the characters and relationships, there is no way, even if the writers wanted to, that they could make them all happy.
I'm sure your imagination is much more romantic and would do a much better job of getting them together than TPTB would.

<snip>

I agree. I know that I see the characters differently to other fans, we all have varying interpreations of the characters on screen, especially when we ship two of them.

TPTB have shown that they cannot do ship so I really don't want them touching my ship. Actually, I don't want ANY ship (including my own) on screen. It's done so much better in fanfiction, because the beauty of fanfiction is that, if you do not support a ceratin pairing you can ignore it - not so if it is shoved down your throat.

[rebelwriter03]

signed. didn't have time yesterday, but I made it up today! Yup, leave the shipping of all kinds in fan fics, and Jack's uneasiness will... ease.

:-D

[DarkDesire]

Okay, I did my feelings on why I don’t think Daniel/Vala works and I also had to get out my feelings about Jack/Sam. (I'm sure I could say more but I figured this was a lot right here.)

Just to start out, I honestly didn’t see anything shippy even after Divide and Conquer. It wasn’t until I came online and read what people thought when I realized that they’d been trying to say that Jack and Sam might like each other as more than friends. I had assumed that Jack had meant that he cares about his entire team more than he should which is true and the fact that Daniel and Teal’c had also waited for Jack and Sam really did throw me off the supposedly shippy moment since I viewed it as a team moment. I wasn’t blind to some of Jack’s earlier comments about her tank top in Broca Divide or even the kiss in WOO but I still view that as more of a ‘male thing’ rather than a romantic thing. Sam is an intelligent, attractive woman and Jack’s not blind but I don’t think that means they’d be good together romantically and really IMO they didn’t do that good of a job of keeping it two sided. Too often we got to see more of Sam crushing on Jack than the other way around so I really can’t be clear as to what Jack felt but for me, it made him seem less romantically interested in her than she was in him.

Now here is one problem I had with it from a team perspective (when Jack was still on the team). I think it’s one thing to worry about your personal team more than other teams when out in the field (for ex, Jack caring more about Teal’c, Daniel, and Sam than he would about those on SG-3). But it’s another to run the risk of favoring one member of your actual team over another. There is a reason that there are regulations in place for this kind of thing and realistically if they started caring about each other romantically then someone should’ve transferred off the team. IMO, the reason why Jack left in S9 was because he didn’t trust himself to use good judgment when it came to his team’s lives (and I mean all of his team…Daniel, Sam, and Teal’c). Now I love the team together so I’m glad they stuck for the most part to leaving the J/S relationship open to interpretation and that they didn’t try and put them in a situation where they had to choose who to save in a hostile situation but I just hated that the idea of it was thrown in there in the first place.

I honestly felt like TPTB wanted to end the ship a couple of different times but when they would put a potential end on it, the shippers would be mad so then they’d decide to try and appease them. Which is really one of their biggest problems because they always seem to want to please everyone…shippers, slashers, gen/team fans, etc. and in doing that, they end up annoying everyone but in different ways. I really don’t think there is any way to get out of that anymore and because of that they might as well just stick with keeping it open to interpretation for good.

I like Sam but I really did feel embarrassed that she was shown to be pining for her boss. They became friends and family over the years but he was also still her boss and I hate to watch anyone act that way. Also I like Jack and Sam’s friendship before they decided to throw the ship in there more because before they at least seemed comfortable talking to each other when they were alone. After that however, I got embarrassed again anytime we saw them try to interact because it was all so awkward. Just to use Lost City as an example. Their whole beginning conversation at his house was terrible. I ended up feeling like she knew nothing about this man who is supposedly her friend. I mean she’s never really been his confidant but I just figured they’d at least know things to talk about (even though again I’m not sure what they’d talk about in a romantic relationship either since they don’t have much in common). It was just stilted and awkward when they were trying to interact on a personal level. However, when he called her a national treasure (I think that was it, right?), they finally did seem comfortable but at the same time, it seemed like more of something he would easily say to her in a field situation too which is why I don’t get how some people can view it as a shippy statement. It just hurt I guess to see them so awkward around each other and only really getting comfortable once Daniel and Teal’c showed up. It just seemed to me to hurt their relationship more than help it on the show because their friendship had this shadow over it now and it affected their interactions and hurt their comfort levels. Having these feelings will cause them to become hyper aware of their interactions and how they can be perceived by others. A hug for comfort might not appear innocent anymore and that can instead make it awkward. Just to point out Lost City again for a moment, something that caught my attention was that Jack and Teal’c had a beautiful moment where Jack rests his hand on Teal’c’s cheek but then the two biggest factions of the fandom (Jack/Sam and Jack/Daniel) both get Daniel and Sam saying something to Jack and him responding to both with “I know”.

I know some shippers use the AU versions as proof of Jack/Sam getting together romantically but I always thought Point of View especially showed why they would NOT work together. Because AU Sam is a different person from our own Sam (and the AU Jacks were also different than our own Jack) and the scene between Jack and our Sam in the hallway seemed to point that out. In fact, at the time, I had taken that exact moment as TPTB showing us how AU Jack/Sam works while ours doesn’t. Because AU Sam was crying and acting so emotional towards Jack that I think that’s a moment when Jack wondered ‘what if’ with our Sam. But then he meets up with her in the hallway and asks how she’s doing and she jokes about how long it’d take to say, and Jack pretty much says that he’s open to listening, and our Sam looks at him like he’s crazy and says goodnight. I thought that was perfect for our Sam and that it outlined the difference between our Sam and AU Sam for both us as an audience and for Jack. That’s why I thought he wasn’t looking for anything romantic with our Sam even despite being curious for a brief moment after his interaction with AU Sam because he realized the differences between the AU universes are what made that couple work where he and our Sam wouldn’t.

Now while I don’t personally see the romantic feelings on Jack’s side, if Sam did think that he wanted her in that way then why would she go to him for advice on her relationship with Pete? Perhaps she wanted to do it so that Jack would stop her but I would think that if she really thought Jack wanted her romantically then she’d also understand that this kind of thing would be like rubbing it in his face and hurting him so that whole thing also turned me off.

Lastly, I really do have a problem seeing them get over the whole chain of command issue (which they even joke about in the 200th episode of course). They can barely force themselves to call each other by anything besides “sir” and “Carter” when they’re together casually as friends, how in the world are they going to do this in a romantic relationship that’s supposed to exist between equals?

Also I can’t even begin to count the number of times shippers have cited the fishing trip invitations as though they are something really special between them. Jack’s asked Teal’c and Daniel to go on these trips too though, so I don’t really get the difference.

I guess it all comes down to feeling that they work best as friends and that the ship between them has hurt their friendship and onscreen interaction more than it’s helped. I’ve never actually seen a convincing reason for why they’d work beyond the fact that they care about each other and have each other’s backs…which would go for the whole team so again I don’t see the difference. Sam, Teal’c, Jack, and Daniel all probably care more about each other than they should but they work well and they’re all friends and I honestly hope that this is what comes out at the end of the series.

[Frostfox]

Hiya, Darkdesire.

Yeah, lets hear it for a proper team, no one excluded or more important than any other person on the team.

And let's hear it for RealKickAssSolidierSam not Twinset&PearlsIWuvMyBossSam!

Your opinion is welcome and valued!

Though this thread has been blessedly quiet - I like it when we don't have anything here to talk about - Sam n Sir is a dead duck now we don't have one half of the pair in the show (and it's so, so sad that I should be happy that Jack isn't there so the writers can't spoil the show with shippy nonsense! I do hope that they don't make the same mistakes with Daniel and Vala).

FF

[scarimor]

... But then he meets up with her in the hallway and asks how she’s doing and she jokes about how long it’d take to say, and Jack pretty much says that he’s open to listening, and our Sam looks at him like he’s crazy and says goodnight. I thought that was perfect for our Sam and that it outlined the difference between our Sam and AU Sam for both us as an audience and for Jack.

Just picking out this bit, because... YES! Thank you, yes.

[DEM]

And let's hear it for RealKickAssSolidierSam

Hip Hip Hooray!

not Twinset&PearlsIWuvMyBossSam!

bwah!

[Frostfox]

bwah!

It took me ages and ages to figure out why I really didn't like S/J, why I found it actually offensive rather than just something I could ignore.

I don't do the relationship shtick for any fandom, for any characters, it's just not what I watch a show for but usually I just let it wash over me. Why is this one so dreadful?

I first started to find it inappropriate when they introduced Jacob as he was so much of Jack's generation, they even looked alike, I really didn't want to think of Sam as a woman with a daddy complex but that's what they made it seem like. And I didn't appreciate the shift in focus from the team all caring equally for each other.

It was what the 'ship' did to Sam's character which made it horrible. If the writers had done a better job, it might have been easier to stomach but I'll never forgive them for the hatchett job they did on such a fabulous character. I still love AT, always will, she's an absolute jem and the Sam in my head is still a woman who girls wanting to join the Air Force could look up, not someone it would be implied had slept her way up the promotion ladder.

FF

[DEM]

I first started to find it inappropriate when they introduced Jacob as he was so much of Jack's generation,

from UPGRADES:

O'NEILL: In fact the Tok'ra are starting to annoy me in general.
CARTER: Sir?
O'NEILL: Don't get me wrong Carter. Your dad's great; I love him like a brother.

What were they thinking with that line?

Really, though, the problem wasn't with Jacob. CA is the right age. The problem was with RDA/O'Neill.

they even looked alike, I really didn't want to think of Sam as a woman with a daddy complex but that's what they made it seem like.

Yeah, there's a shot in Grace that skeeves me every time.

I still love AT, always will, she's an absolute jem and the Sam in my head is still a woman who girls wanting to join the Air Force could look up, not someone it would be implied had slept her way up the promotion ladder.

Well, despite its many horrors, I don't think the ship ever implied that.

[Frostfox]

from UPGRADES:

O'NEILL: In fact the Tok'ra are starting to annoy me in general.
CARTER: Sir?
O'NEILL: Don't get me wrong Carter. Your dad's great; I love him like a brother.

What were they thinking with that line?

They weren't thinking, they thought they were being cute.

Really, though, the problem wasn't with Jacob. CA is the right age. The problem was with RDA/O'Neill.

There was no problem with RDA when they kept it subtle and implied, it was only when they tried too hard that they ran into difficulties.

Yeah, there's a shot in Grace that skeeves me every time.

Don't remember that. AT's acting was very good in Grace (I could feel Sam's headache) but I found the episode rather dull, I wish they'd written a better vehicle for her acting talents and it's a while since I watched it.

Well, despite its many horrors, I don't think the ship ever implied that.

Well, neither do I but I've read other people with that opinion and Caesar's wife must be beyond reproach, I don't want Stargate to be written in such a way that anyone could think that.

[scarimor]

.. It was what the 'ship' did to Sam's character which made it horrible. If the writers had done a better job, it might have been easier to stomach but I'll never forgive them for the hatchett job they did on such a fabulous character.

I talked about this at some length on the Sam thread. The writers are not romance writers! Of course it was inevitable that they would make a poor job of it. They should never have gone anywhere near the idea. And of course it was inevitable that the female character in the equation would shift the most from where the scifi part character-driven drama put her to start with. One of the main reasons why writers in this genre are crap at romance, and wouldn't dream of attempting a romance story in its own right, is because as predominantly male writers in the genre they don't write the female aspect of a romance well.

Very, very few male writers write romance stories. Very, very few male writers in other genres can insert a "couple" thread into their work successfully. The ones who do it best are those who keep the focus right off it. They have a couple in there, and their couple-ness hardly features in the story-telling.

[DEM]

The writers are not romance writers! Of course it was inevitable that they would make a poor job of it. They should never have gone anywhere near the idea. And of course it was inevitable that the female character in the equation would shift the most from where the scifi part character-driven drama put her to start with.

This phenomenon is showing up in Lost. At the beginning of the show, the leadest female character, Kate, was being transported from Australia by a U.S. federal marshal. Not to go into too much detail, but Kate was a mysterious badass. Over time, the writers have let the luv twiangle story get out of control, and the Kate character is the one who has been affected by it most.

This season, just when the show -- overall -- seems to be getting its head back on straight after a very uneven sophomore year, Kate has lost any lead character qualities she once had; she's now The Love Interest. It's a damn shame.

[Frostfox]

I talked about this at some length on the Sam thread. The writers are not romance writers! Of course it was inevitable that they would make a poor job of it. They should never have gone anywhere near the idea. And of course it was inevitable that the female character in the equation would shift the most from where the scifi part character-driven drama put her to start with. One of the main reasons why writers in this genre are crap at romance, and wouldn't dream of attempting a romance story in its own right, is because as predominantly male writers in the genre they don't write the female aspect of a romance well.

Very, very few male writers write romance stories. Very, very few male writers in other genres can insert a "couple" thread into their work successfully. The ones who do it best are those who keep the focus right off it. They have a couple in there, and their couple-ness hardly features in the story-telling.

Hm, interesting.
I don't follow many TV skiffy shows but it seems to me, from what I've read and observed, that the successful relationship stuff comes pre-planned and as part of the show's premise (Helena Russell/John Konig from Space 1999, the married couple in Firefly, Ben and Claudia's characters on Farscape).

There was alway going to be horrendous complications with a commanding officer having a relationship with his subordinate, they could never had made that relationship work within the framework of the television program and with the blessings of the US Airforce. It was foolish to try, had they left it subtle and open to interpretation, then they might have got away with it but TPTB had to keep rubbing everyone's nose in it, they couldn't bare to be subtle and clever about it.

I'm not sure men make worse romance writers than women; I don't read romance, the thousand books on my bookshelves are mostly skiffy and fantasy and relationships are usually part of the story, rather than the focus. I don't have sufficient overview of the genre of romance (I do know one of my male friends wrote a Mills & Boon book on a dare!) to know what percentage they make up in the writing stable but I do know that romance, erotica and porn written for women, by women, is considerably different in tone and emphasis than that written by men, whether for a male or female audience.

One of my good online friends is a staunch S/J shipper. She thinks it adds another dimension to their characters but she's also prepared to admit that some of the things the writers have done with the relationship annoy her no end and frustrate her. She thinks, and I agree, that the fanfic writers do a much better job than the show writers. I can see her point of view and if it had been better written, I would have been much happier, I would have glossed over it the way I have with relationship stuff in other shows but I got really fed up with what they were doing to Sam in the name of 'ship' and it made me rather more militantly anti S/J than I'd normally be.

I love Sam.
I love Jack.
I hate what the writers have made of a unique and charismatic mentor/student relationship, they spoiled it for me and many other people.

FF

[JessM]

Hiya, Darkdesire.

Yeah, lets hear it for a proper team, no one excluded or more important than any other person on the team.

And let's hear it for RealKickAssSolidierSam not Twinset&PearlsIWuvMyBossSam!

Your opinion is welcome and valued!

Though this thread has been blessedly quiet - I like it when we don't have anything here to talk about - Sam n Sir is a dead duck now we don't have one half of the pair in the show (and it's so, so sad that I should be happy that Jack isn't there so the writers can't spoil the show with shippy nonsense! I do hope that they don't make the same mistakes with Daniel and Vala).

FF

I second that ... well, just about everything you said, actually! It's funny - when I first saw Threads and then Moebius Part 2, I said to myself, "I think I'm almost glad that Jack isn't going to be there next season." (of course the shippers went nuts with that scene in Beachhead and then of course THAT line in Ex Deus Machina...)

I hope they don't make the same mistakes with Daniel and Vala as well. A part of me thinks that, well, the season is half over now, and then that's it. How bad can it be? But then of course there are going to be the two DVD movies, so ...

... hoping the same mistakes won't be made. When all is said and done, I hope there won't be an ending that will cater to both the D/V shippers and S/J shippers.

[JessM]

I love Sam.
I love Jack.
I hate what the writers have made of a unique and charismatic mentor/student relationship, they spoiled it for me and many other people.

FF

That definitely is the bottom line for me.