Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[ShadowMaat]

I haven't read all the posts but it just struck me that the title of this thread isn't anti S/J ship it's anti S/J shipper which is a totally different thing!

No, it's anti-ship, hence the "don't bash people or opinions" thing. The shippers might get drawn into it by default, but no more so than the opposing viewpoint in any other pro/anti thread.

If you disagree or if you have a problem with the content of this thread, you are free to complain to a mod or to ignore the thread entirely.

[darklilac]

I haven't read all the posts but it just struck me that the title of this thread isn't anti S/J ship it's anti S/J shipper which is a totally different thing!

erika

I didn't notice this until now, this JS ship makes me so mad that I didn't even realized what the title says.
I think you're right and maybe someone should change the title into anti S/J ship.

But it's also true that many of the JS shippers I talked to online were very rude, huge Daniel haters(why?????) and were proud of the fact that they wrote millions of letters to TPTB to have the romantic resolution and to have less Daniel and/or Jack and Daniel scenes.
So in a way those fans influenced TPTB decision of invading season 7 and 8 with the JS ship.
I'm not mad at fans writing to ask for more ship, just at people asking for an excessive dose of ship with non realistic demands that cannot go well with the show and asking for less scenes of other characters.

I know not every S/J shipper is like that, but when I see all those episodes ruined and the show I loved gone forever, I can't help but blame TPTB and those fans.
In the same way I don't like what some of the JD slashers did, even if I'm surely not again slash.
For example at some conventions wearing shirts with Jack and Daniel kissing, something that in my opinion influenced some of the actors and TPTB opinions.

[ShadowMaat]

Whoops, OK, I see what you mean now. Hmm... hadn't intended it to come across that way. "Anti-shippers" was supposed to refer to US as a group, not "them". Maybe a mod can come along and fix it.

[SallyK]

That's quite interesting because for me it is the other way around. Perhaps because, until Grace Jack was the only one I saw actually expressing anything in a canon sense. Whereas when Sam had the opportunity, she clearly chose her career (end of BtS).

Beneath the Surface? I've heard people say that they saw it as shippy, but I just don't see it. I always interpreted their actions as a combination of the mindstamps and the friendship they have always had as part of the team. I didn't see the scene near the end as anything other than embarassment that they had acted in a way they never would in their right minds.

On the other hand, in Divide and Conquer, I can see that Jack's confession was meant to be shippy, but it is still possible to interpret it as a more general expression of caring for his team. And since that is the only interpretation that makes sense with the characters as they were portrayed up to that point, I am quite happy to stick with it. Jack's actions since that point have borne that out, even if he was nursing feelings he agreed to leave them in the room and he did.

In Grace we didn't have that get out clause, suddenly Sam is not the person she has appeared to be for the last 7 years. And we don't even have the excuse that she was doing it subconsiously and will now move on, because of this bad habit she has developed of flinging herself into Jack's arms at the slightest excuse. If she was really trying to overcome these feelings, surely that would be the last thing she would do. So although the overt confession came before she got together with Pete, her actions since show little sign that she is trying to get over it. In Lost City we have the worst example of unprofessional behaviour; when you have just been handed command of a mission, you do not start trying to have personal conversations of any kind, even to say "I'm not in love with you anymore".

SallyK

[SallyK]

I still like Jack a lot more than Sam, since he was one of my favourite characters.
I never liked Sam a lot, and I can name very few Sam centric episodes that I can watch again, and that's the reason why for me it's more painful to see the descent of Jack than the one of Sam.
I'm sorry but I can't see the caring commanding officer in Jack anymore, surely not the Jack as Daniel's friend.
How can anyone watch that horrible scene in Lost City 2, the one on the ship, where Daniel tries to tell Jack that everything will be ok, and not be shocked?
Who is that Jack that watches Daniel with a cold expression and can't even formulate a word, but then he springs to life again when Sam enters the room, because when Daniel is talking with Jack Sam must always enter the room.
That's not a caring person and not a good commanding officer.

Horrible scene? I really can't see it that way. To me it is just an example of how Jack and Daniel communicate without words. Jack and Sam don't have that, they just have uncomfortable silences. Yes, of course, I would like to see a more overt friendship scene between them but there is nothing in this one that indicates to me that Jack doesn't care, just that he is happy that he doesn't have to explain what he is going through because he knows Daniel understands.

SallyK

[darklilac]

That is what you see, but I can't accept this.
This an excuse made up for what TPTB wanted to do with Jack and Daniel and for the pushing of the JS ship.
Two friends don't communicate without words with glacial stares, surely that's not what Jack and Daniel did for 6 years.
I still remember how bad I felt and how much I was upset when I saw Lost City 2, when I watched all those scenes Jack had with Sam and when I saw Jack caressing Teal'c's face, I can't forget what TPTB did intentionally and I will never be able to watch that episode again, so excuse me if the "I know" scene seemed horrible to me.

[SallyK]

So, are you saying you actually see Jack this way, or are you just choosing to see the old Jack and, as you say, refuse to see the changes. Which, would seem to say you think there are changes, since you wouldn't need to refuse to see them if there weren't. (Sorry for the convoluted last sentence).

If the second is true, I'm afraid I can't do it. I need to see Jack being who he was. In the present time. Or, I believe that man is dead and gone and replaced with a pod person. Much like Sam.

I'm sorry, I didn't explain myself very well, probably because I hadn't really stopped to analyse what I was feeling.

I know that people see a change in Jack - so to that extent at least I have to admit there are changes. But I really don't see them myself when I watch the episodes. I think I must have stopped taking notice of the character distortions and inconsistencies of the current PTB so long ago, that it is no longer a conscious thing. They yank the characters all over the place and I just ignore it, because I know who the characters "really are". (That does sound rather arrogant when I say it out loud, but I can't think of a better way of describing it.)

So when someone says that Jack is being cold in The Lost City or even in Fallen, I really can't see it. To me they are good friendship scenes - the friendship is there as sub-text whenever Jack and Daniel are on screen together, regardless of what is said overtly. And that is what is missing from Sam and Jack's relationship, there is no subtext of closeness, so what we get onscreen feels forced and unnatural.

I understand you can't see it, you are probably being more realistic than I am but I really do see it that way.

SallyK

[darklilac]

To me they are good friendship scenes - the friendship is there as sub-text whenever Jack and Daniel are on screen together, regardless of what is said overtly. And that is what is missing from Sam and Jack's relationship, there is no subtext of closeness, so what we get onscreen feels forced and unnatural.


SallyK

That the J/S relationship is forced and unnatural is true, because that's what TPTB did, they forced it.
But the Jack and Daniel friendship, like all the other friendships of the show, should not be a subtext.
The team was made of four people, four friends who loved each other and were there for each other in times of need or in times of joy.
Subtext is for people that want to see some ship between two or more characters.

[Eken95]

No, it's anti-ship, hence the "don't bash people or opinions" thing. The shippers might get drawn into it by default, but no more so than the opposing viewpoint in any other pro/anti thread.

If you disagree or if you have a problem with the content of this thread, you are free to complain to a mod or to ignore the thread entirely.

No I don't have a problem with the content. Freedom of speech is fine by me

erika

[Shipperahoy]

I went ahead and changed the title of the thread for you guys. Although, honestly, I hadn't noticed or thought anything of it before Elken pointed it out. But I guess it's better safe than sorry right?

[darklilac]

I just remembered something else that the JS ship ruined.
A long time ago Rothery and Shanks wanted to play a little of ship between Janet and Daniel and the witers said not because of the problems the JS ship caused.
Now after some years the JS ship is back again and more than ever, so why they didn't let the D/J happen?

[Gategrrl]

I just remembered something else that the JS ship ruined.
A long time ago Rothery and Shanks wanted to play a little of ship between Janet and Daniel and the witers said not because of the problems the JS ship caused.
Now after some years the JS ship is back again and more than ever, so why they didn't let the D/J happen?

Well, on principle, I understand and sympathise with your POV.

But, I'm as (was?) against a D/J relationship as I am a J/S relationship. I don't see the need to pair any of the main/semi-regular characters up on an action/adventure/SF-F show.

As I understand it, the writers did incorporate a Daniel/Janet thing into 2010, but it was toned down considerably in the edit of the show. And the actors have admitted to tweaking it up on the set, also. Frankly, that's about as far as I'd like any ship to go on the show.

I only hope they don't decide to pair Daniel up with Sarah Gardener just to satisfy some misbegotten urge to pair him up romantically with someone, anyone! Then it really would be soapgate. Yuck.

[epiphany]

Yes, please lets NOT pair up Daniel and Sarah. It lasted two months in which it seems she probably spent most of her time trying to get HIM to remember they were supposed to be dating at all.

What do the writers think this is? Noah's arc, where everyone needs to be paired up two by two?

[ShadowMaat]

What do the writers think this is? Noah's arc, where everyone needs to be paired up two by two?

Actually, I think that's EXACTLY what they think.

[darklilac]

I don't want romance in the show, but the writers transformed Stargate into a soap opera, and the ship is here to stay, so why should Daniel be left outside alone?
Normally I wouldn't want him paired and having sex and all this stuff that has absolutely nothing to do with Stargate, but it's a sad truth that in season 8 we will have to endure a neverending series of romantic stories, weddings and shippy scenes, so I can't think of seeing all those people kissing and hugging and Daniel in the background alone.