Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[the_fours]

im now going to pay hommage to south park.

*oh my god you killed stargate, YOU Ba**ards*

is anyone planning on making a youdestroyed stargate with ship website. i would but dunno how

-hangs head in shame-

[Gateman]

I hate this s/j ship stuff cause it has made me critical of a show I once accepted without question.

[Dani347]

I hate J/S ship because it's tainting old episodes. I can't watch friendship moments between Jack and Sam in the early seasons without thinking maybe it means something else. Then, retching my guts out.

No vomit icon, unfortunately.

[ShadowMaat]

No vomit icon, unfortunately.

Take your pick.



Or the tamer:

[GateGipsy]

I can't watch friendship moments between Jack and Sam in the early seasons without thinking maybe it means something else.

Ship didn't exsist in my world then and it doesn't now. I don't even see Grace as shippy, but that takes effort so it does taint how I see episodes after Grace. But I keep that seperate from the eps before it - I refuse to let it taint eps that I enjoy.

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

Unfortunately, I agree with you. Even if TPTB had a grand epiphany at this point, I believe it's too late. What used to be innocent exchanges between Jack and Sam would all now be suspect. That has always been one of my major gripes about Ship on the show. Once you've crossed that line, there's really no going back.

Absolutely true. The genie is out of the bottle, and you can't just stuff it back in. Even if TPTP realise that what they have done with this relationship has gone too far, make a serious effort in Season Eight, and try to re-write history by telling us that what we saw in Season Seven wasn't really there, it was all in our imaginations and we just interpreted it wrong.... the evidence is out there in the clear on the DVDs (at least one of which I do not intend to buy - and that's a first for me...).

But they're not going to do that, because for some reason they persist in this delusion that Sam is a more important and a more interesting character than either Teal'c or Daniel, and unfortunately the only way they can go about proving it, is to continue to manufacture this relationship, because they actually have nothing more to say about her. Sam is entirely defined by her relationships - to Jack, to her father, to everyone in her life. It's as if they are just not capable of writing a woman to be independent of other people. I think AT has got it completely right - why couldn't they just write her as a man, and let AT add the femininity rather than have it scripted so heavy handedly that it bludgeons us over the head with it - Oh look, she's a *woman* She's different from the others.... We have to talk about relationships and babies because that's what you do with women characters.

And the current state of 'affairs' is the result. Pah!

[ShadowMaat]

But they're not going to do that, because for some reason they persist in this delusion that Sam is a more important and a more interesting character than either Teal'c or Daniel...

I don't think it's a matter of them thinking Sam is more important. Not on her own, anyway. They just think that Sam/Jack ship is more important than anything else, including good storytelling. They're making the entire show suffer (in my opinion) so they can reinforce this belief. And you're absolutely right- they seem to be operating under the delusion that a woman cannot be happy, cannot be "complete" without a man. And now that they've given her a man (and I'm not even talking about Pete), they've shown what Sam's "true colors" are: that of your stereotypical incoompetent, over-emotional wishy-washy girly girl. Gone is the strength of character that made Sam so great, gone is her independence, gone is her ability to command without waffling or simpering to Jack. It's sad, it's pathetic, but it's definitely a sign of things to come. At least in my opinion.

[keshou]

Jack? Evince emotion?! Pfft! Not likely. He's cold, he's crude, he's mean, he's callous and disinterested, but other than a few lapses back into humanity, there hasn't been much of the real Jack I remember in quite a while now, certainly not the one who gives a rat's arse about anyone, be it in a shippy or platonic way... or even as the generic concern of one human being to another.

No, most of it has been TPTB tearing down everything strong and wonderful about Sam and replacing her with Kleenex Girl.

This seems a little harsh on Jack. I think Jack has a different way of dealing with emotional issues sometimes but I've never thought of him as cold, crude, mean, callous or disinterested.....okay well, maybe disinterested fits. I think he's acted a little silly the last few seasons, more intent on making a lame joke than acting like the leader of the frontline team fighting for Earth's survival, but I wouldn't call him cold or mean. What has convinced you he's now this kind of person?

As for Sam, well I still think that strong and wonderful gal is still in there -- she's just having a mid-life crisis. I do agree that this whole arc with Pete and then her scenes with Jack in Lost City (where she seemed to be dying to tell him about her feelings for him) have made her seem a little wishy-washy.

[Judy1393]

I have to ask, tho. Has Jack actually crossed that line? I guess you could say he did in ...darn, what was that ep? Oh yeah, the one where he went to talk to Sam about reluctantly having to go rescue that darned Daniel again from some nasty nasty kidnapper who might have the item they really need more than Sam needs to go on that expedition with her father, Bra'tac and Teal'c? Oh, right. Evolution part 2. Bleh.

So, would you say Jack has crossed that line?

Just askin'.

When I watched that scene, I couldn't for the life of me figure out what they were doing. I couldn't figure out why it was so dark in her lab. Their dialog was stilted, awkward, and just plain strange. I’m not really sure that Jack crossed the line. Especially even as far as TLC he is still cutting her off when she seems to be getting too close to being out of line.

What I blame Jack for is that he knows she’s harboring inappropriate feelings, just by the fact that he always cuts her off, insists that the call him ‘Sir’ when she slips, but he does not do what he really should do and that is transfer her out of the SGC. It’s not enough to just transfer her off the team because he is second in command of the SGC and as such she would still be in his chain of command.

Also, I still think that Jack still loves his ex-wife and while he cares for Sam, as he does for all his team, I haven’t seen anything that makes me think he’s really ‘in love’ with her. But then I had to be hit over the head in D & C to realize there was supposed to have be shippy feelings all along between the two of them.

[yabyumpan]

Just popping in to say a quick 'thank you' for starting this thread I'll stop by later when I've got more time for a really good anti-S/J vent

[ShadowMaat]

What has convinced you he's now this kind of person?

Season six. It was a dozen little things, all adding together to give me the impression he just doesn't care anymore. I'll admit, a large part of it has to do with his attitude towards Jonas. Jack never accepted him. Never. When Jonas was leaving in Homecoming, it might just as easily have been a stranger saying goodbye for all the interest that Jack showed. But it wasn't just against Jonas. Jack felt angry for most of S6. The loss of Daniel was part of it, I'm sure, but in my opinion, his attitude went beyond the loss of a friend... or even a lover, if you're slash-inclined. Besides, the disaffection (as I see it) continued through the portions of S7 that I watched. Even Daniel's return didn't seem to garner that much interest from him and I haven't had the sense that he's cared about much of anything since S5. Yes, a lot has happened to him and yes, I know Jack's reactions have always been "different"- for five seasons I was perfectly fine with his attitude and reactions, but I still don't feel that his "experiences" fully explain his brushing off or dismissing of his teammates. His quips are a lot cruder and more inappropriate, they distract from the scene rather than adding to it. Jack has, in my opinion, lost his sense of fun, and what's left over is no longer a pleasure to watch. I used to like Jack a lot. He remind me of my family and particularly of my father. But now... I don't like him at all.

For me, Jack has lost just as much of his personality as Sam has. In Jack's case, it probably has more to do with RDA than with the ship aspect, but the shippiness is part of it, too. Seeing the way Jack is now makes it all the more impossible for me to accept them as a legitimate couple.

Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.

[darklilac]

This seems a little harsh on Jack.
I think he's acted a little silly the last few seasons, more intent on making a lame joke than acting like the leader of the frontline team fighting for Earth's survival, but I wouldn't call him cold or mean. What has convinced you he's now this kind of person?

As for Sam, well I still think that strong and wonderful gal is still in there -- she's just having a mid-life crisis. I do agree that this whole arc with Pete and then her scenes with Jack in Lost City (where she seemed to be dying to tell him about her feelings for him) have made her seem a little wishy-washy.

I would call Jack cold and mean, actually I call him cold mean and also selfish, not a good leader anymore, surely not qualified as a General.
Examples?
All of the second part of season 7.
Those scenes in Evolution 2, Tapping and PDL said that those were shippy scenes, lights off, awful music, all because those two just can't do the ship, so all around them must be adapted and changed to create the atmosphere.

So in the supreme effort to make this ship works they created a Jack that don't give a damn about anyone anymore, EXPECIALLY Daniel, because in TPTB minds Daniel is a threat to the Sammie&Jack love.

So we have Jack that don't care a bit about Daniel being kidnapped and tortured in Evolution, while he's worried about poor Sam having to go to a mission without him(was that the first time?)
Jack comforting poor Sam in Death Knell, Heroes 2, and on and on, like she is some kind of child, since when a soldier, a major of the SGC, needs the comfort of a superior officer for an injury or for being scared?
Then again Jack didn't care about Teal'c going on the same mission in Evolution, Jack didn't care about Teal'c and Daniel's feelings in Heroes, actually he didn't even care about Janet.

The Jack that I learned to love wasn't like that.
Jack used to care about all his friends, didn't make differences between them and didn't spend his time saying Carter to "come here".

And sorry for RDA, but he just can't click with the JS ship, I don't know if he doesn't want or if he just can't, the result is painful to watch.
While RDA played a great emotional Jack with Sara in those Cold Lazarus scenes.
There he made me believe that he loves his ex-wife, with Sam I see a Jack making stupid faces and just looking silly.

About Sam all I can say is that she seems a little more than wishy-washy to me, she seems that all she can think of his Jack and how to get into his bed, and that is wrong on so many levels.
Is wrong for Pete, since she's using him, having sex with him while she knows she's drooling over Jack.
Is wrong because she became selfish too and uncaring, what about the beautiful firendship she had with Daniel?
Did they even talk when Janet die?
Did Sam even care when Daniel was kidnapped in Evolution?

My hate for what Jack and Sam have become is great.

[SallyK]

It is interesting because I can see that darklilac and Shadowmaat have a point. But for me Jack is still redeemable, where it would take a lot to convince me that Sam is.

I don't know whether that is because Jack was always one of my favourite characters, so I find him easier to forgive; while I liked Sam she was probably my least favourite of the team. And she has had other problems than just the ship, the way she has become an expert on absolutely everything, at the expense of other characters and the downplaying of her friendships with anyone but Jack.

On the other hand, I can't help seeing a difference between her overt actions and Jack's. I haven't seen anything from him that I can't convert (with my non-ship viewing glasses) into protecting the feelings and career of a friend. Therefore I can refuse to see changes of character, and still see the "real" Jack, the caring commanding officer, Daniel's friend and the guy with a strange sense of humour.

That is much more difficult for Sam, because she is the only one who has actually come out and said that she has unprofessional and inappropriate feelings - even when in a relationship with another guy. I can do it in fanfic, but in the show it strains my suspension of disbelief to breaking point to continue to see the "real" Sam, the professional Air Force officer, who has a close relationship with everyone on her team but who loves her science and her career and would never throw it away for a man.

SallyK

[GateGipsy]

It is interesting because I can see that darklilac and Shadowmaat have a point. But for me Jack is still redeemable, where it would take a lot to convince me that Sam is.

That's quite interesting because for me it is the other way around. Perhaps because, until Grace Jack was the only one I saw actually expressing anything in a canon sense. Whereas when Sam had the opportunity, she clearly chose her career (end of BtS).

That is much more difficult for Sam, because she is the only one who has actually come out and said that she has unprofessional and inappropriate feelings - even when in a relationship with another guy.

You've lost me here. When did she do this while she was with another guy? (presuming Pere here?).

[Webbgirl]

You've lost me here. When did she do this while she was with another guy? (presuming Pere here?).

She at least made the attempt in Lost City 2.

I have to agree that I see it mostly from Sam's side. I think there's a combo of reasons. The fact that she seems to be the one that TPTB have focused on in S7 when everything came out to smack us in the face. Prior to that it was still subtle. I also think that she's victim to the double-standard of the fact that she's the 'girl' it gets placed on her. I blame that on TPTB as well. They've pretty much put a neon sign above her head announcing 'I'M THE CHICK!' So now we end up with a team comprised of 'A leader', 'A Warrior', 'A Linguist' and 'The Girl' (who also happens to know everything scientific under the sun...doesn't that make her even more adorable) /snark.