Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

I don't think I've watched D&C since the first time I saw it. So, I don't remember it at all. But, I love Upgrades. One of my top favorite Stargate episodes. And, I'm baffled as to what thought process went into deciding to turn one aspect of that episode into a shippy episode later. I mean, Upgrades! An episode where Jack, Sam, and Daniel get superpowers. Where they cause trouble and get into a fight at a bar. Where Teal'c is smug. It was a fun episode. Lighthearted. 3 SG1 members gain strength and lose common sense. Sure, Jack and Sam were trapped for awhile, but does that translate into luv? I guess it does in the minds of tptb, because I can't think of anything in that episode that would make a lightbulb go off in anyone's head.

They think they're being so clever but they've never twigged that keeping stuff below the radar works so much better for all the fans, shippers and the rest of us.
I've never read any S/J fanfic but I'd bet you good money that the good fic writers have made a much better job of any possible relationship. The best fic writers, without the constraints of episodic TV, can turn out some stuff which has much more emotional resonance.
Another part of the problem, the choppy, on/off nature of the relationship and the lack of consequences is a problem inherent in episodic TV, not necessarily shoddy writing, though that doesn't help.
I'm fairly sure that if it had been better written (and if Jacob and Jack had been more different to each other) I wouldn't have found it so utterly objectionable but I don't look to TV shows like Stargate for my romance, the very nature of the show works against it.

FF

[luthienberen]

They think they're being so clever but they've never twigged that keeping stuff below the radar works so much better for all the fans, shippers and the rest of us.
I've never read any S/J fanfic but I'd bet you good money that the good fic writers have made a much better job of any possible relationship. The best fic writers, without the constraints of episodic TV, can turn out some stuff which has much more emotional resonance.
Another part of the problem, the choppy, on/off nature of the relationship and the lack of consequences is a problem inherent in episodic TV, not necessarily shoddy writing, though that doesn't help.
I'm fairly sure that if it had been better written (and if Jacob and Jack had been more different to each other) I wouldn't have found it so utterly objectionable but I don't look to TV shows like Stargate for my romance, the very nature of the show works against it.

FF

Very true. Stragte SG-1 was never romance (yes, we had Daniel's wife arc but that was different and actually connected with the storyline, Jack and Carter's had nothing to do with the metal spinny Device), but an adventure show.

And it dosn't help that it was written so poorly - and I agree that many fanfiction writers could probably do much better that the TPTB. No constriants from lack of consequences or TV broadcasting.

Divide and Conquer was a nasty shock and had me going "What?!?" Subtle is so much better for evyerbody concerned: shippers, anti-shippers and slashers can happily play without being fully annoyed by shody writing and deconstruction of the programme observed. Also I liked Martouf and thpught that Carter and him would make a nice couple if romance was realised.

[Dani347]

The thing is, Daniel/Sha're didn't mess with the team dynamics. Sam/Pete (if it had been allowed to be a real ship, rather than a tool to showcase the J/S ship) wouldn't have messed with the team dynamics. But, shipping two people on the team does mess with it. In fics that's fine, but on the show, that's a problem. And, it would mess with it,because they were changing the relationships. Lets say you have a group of friends who've known other since kindergarten and love each other and spend time together. If two of those friends get married, something changes. Even if the others are totally for the marriage, totally love the idea, and have no problems. It's still can't be the same. So, saying that two teammates are in love makes changes to the original feel of a 4 person team.

[JessM]

I think this might be the whole point. She would have done the same if it had been Daniel or Teal'c. If you really think about it, anyone who was told that a close friend or teammate was going to do something that risky would probably have the same reaction she did. If a friend of mine was going to do that and I had just been informed of it, I would jump up and try to talk them out of it or at least discuss it with them. But, again, I see her response being the same regardless which one of her teammates or friends that it was.

Oh, I don't doubt that she would have done the same. I wonder if TPTB would portray her that way, though.

I've not watched that episode in forever since I hate what happened to Martouf, and he is my preferred ship with Carter, so I can't remember the details of it, but wasn't there some hint that he was doing it because they couldn't risk Sam's brain being destroyed or something? I have that vague feeling there was something about that and her reaction was partly due to the fact that he was doing it because they couldn't risk destroying her mind and besides he'd rather be dead than asleep or something. Its been too long ago since I saw it to rememeber all of the gory details. Actually, it is probably because in my world that episode never happened. I've ignored it for so long now that I'm surprised I can remember any of it.

I don't remember if it was because they didn't want to risk her brain being destroyed, but I do remember something to the effect that he'd rather be dead...definitely something along the lines like "it should be me." I'd say that that was very selfless and admirable of him, but then they throw in the "care more about her than I'm supposed to."

I just wish they would leave ship completely out of it. I don't even want a hint that they have a significant other away from the show. After the Pete debacle I've decided they can't get any of it right and I don't want them to even try anymore. Actually, I never wanted them to try in the first place and would just as soon they forgot about it now.

You're definitely not alone. I didn't come into the show from the very beginning. I came in almost halfway through season 6 and back then I liked any Sam/Jack moments that I saw ... I can't remember what happened, but I just became anti-ship by the end of the season. I liked the Sam/Daniel interaction when I saw the old episodes (mostly season 1-2) and then when I saw season 4 I just thought "to heck with all of this." I hated what they did in D&C and I was completley anti-ship onscreen from then on.

I prefer it when they take turns doing the Kirk thing and I think they had it right in the first few seasons when they each took turns having a passing interest with someone from another world. That at least they seemed to get halfway right simply because it was a passing thing. At least then we wouldn't have Carter being portrayed as an aging woman that never outgrew her teenage responses and O'Neill being portrayed as a dumb clueless "guy". Both incarnations are beneath the dignity of the characters and have done nothing good for either of them.

Pagan

I have to admit that I liked that a lot better myself.

[JessM]

ep 200?

I think that was part of it. She also said it in one of the Stargate Mondays promos on the SciFi channel. The "theme" for that set of episodes was something like "Sam/Jack", so for one of the spots they interviewed her and she pretty much said that. She had a huge grin on her face and seemed to say it in a jokey manner ... so hopefully that's all it was.

[JessM]

The thing is, Daniel/Sha're didn't mess with the team dynamics. Sam/Pete (if it had been allowed to be a real ship, rather than a tool to showcase the J/S ship) wouldn't have messed with the team dynamics. But, shipping two people on the team does mess with it. In fics that's fine, but on the show, that's a problem. And, it would mess with it,because they were changing the relationships. Lets say you have a group of friends who've known other since kindergarten and love each other and spend time together. If two of those friends get married, something changes. Even if the others are totally for the marriage, totally love the idea, and have no problems. It's still can't be the same. So, saying that two teammates are in love makes changes to the original feel of a 4 person team.

I couldn't agree more. I've gotten into arguments with people over that. Some of them kept insisting it was the writers who messed with the team dynamics, not the ship. But, um? Aren't the writers responsible for what we see? The writers give us the ship, so yes I suppose they are, but yes the ship did mess with the team dynamics.

And it's one of the reservations I have about season 10 if any of the people on the team are shipped. But I guess that's pretty much off-topic (though there have been those occasional rumbles about what would happen when Jack appears...).

[Dani347]

I couldn't agree more. I've gotten into arguments with people over that. Some of them kept insisting it was the writers who messed with the team dynamics, not the ship. But, um? Aren't the writers responsible for what we see? The writers give us the ship, so yes I suppose they are, but yes the ship did mess with the team dynamics.

Hmm. Well, the writers certainly didn't help. I suppose it's possible that if the ship had been written better the change in the team dynamics might have ranged from an interesting to a tolerable change for non shippers. I mean, if they had faced it head on, didn't pretend that everything was still the same (just as if they had let Jack and Sam actually cross the line and deal with the consequences) it might have made for a compelling story. But, like FF said, this isn't the type of show for that.

[JessM]

Hmm. Well, the writers certainly didn't help. I suppose it's possible that if the ship had been written better the change in the team dynamics might have ranged from an interesting to a tolerable change for non shippers. I mean, if they had faced it head on, didn't pretend that everything was still the same (just as if they had let Jack and Sam actually cross the line and deal with the consequences) it might have made for a compelling story. But, like FF said, this isn't the type of show for that.

Good points. The way it's written certainly makes a difference. I agree with you both, though - it's not for this type of show.

[luthienberen]

The thing is, Daniel/Sha're didn't mess with the team dynamics. Sam/Pete (if it had been allowed to be a real ship, rather than a tool to showcase the J/S ship) wouldn't have messed with the team dynamics. But, shipping two people on the team does mess with it. In fics that's fine, but on the show, that's a problem. And, it would mess with it,because they were changing the relationships. Lets say you have a group of friends who've known other since kindergarten and love each other and spend time together. If two of those friends get married, something changes. Even if the others are totally for the marriage, totally love the idea, and have no problems. It's still can't be the same. So, saying that two teammates are in love makes changes to the original feel of a 4 person team.

You are of course 100% correct. Daniel/Sha'uri and Pete(Martouf, Nari, Orlin)/Carter did not tamper with team dynamics. But Jack/Carter, any team pairing would immediately do so and I cannot see either the Daniel or Teal'c I know agreeing with that.

Once done the other teamamtes have to ask themselves: will my CO protect me (especially if you were the civilian on the team)? Have my best interests in heart even if his bit of fluff was in danger? And for the woman: How can I be certain she won't abandon her post and thereby endanger my life simply to go to the rescue of the man she loves even when it goes against all regulations?

Will they, in fact, both have the team's best interests at heart or will their feelings get in the way? Cause problems? Lose vital seconds in a battle situation?

I do not think Teal'c - a battle hardned warrior - would stand for such circumstances and neither would Daniel. I certainly wouldn't and I cannot see any military team/personnel consenting to such conditions either.

In the end, as you said, fics are the best place for this sort of speculation and should remain so. Stargate SG-1 has never had romance as the primary focus, and when it did TPTB ruined team dynamics and the show.

[JessM]

Thought I would resurrect this thread a bit because I've just read the spoilers for episode 200 and I'm feeling a bit ill.

They say that

Spoiler:

the members of SG-1 will be pitching ideas for a sci-fi movie, and one of them involves a wedding which involves General O'Neill.

Now normally I wouldn't make such a big deal about this, but I read an article from the latest issue of SciFi magazine, and in it AT says that

Spoiler:

she is squeezing into a wedding dress for the 200th episode

I know that the cast has said that they will be taking potshots at themselves in the 200th episode, so maybe this "wedding" is part of a joke to poke fun at the S/J people. I'm not too sure about that, though. I'd love to know just whose idea this "wedding" would be.

Perhaps it won't be so bad, though, if it's just an idea and they won't actually get married. I still have my doubts and I can see some fanfic fix-its for this episode already...

[scarimor]

Thought I would resurrect this thread a bit because I've just read the spoilers for episode 200 and I'm feeling a bit ill.

Spoiler:

In a recent interview or something, AT referred to ep 200 in terms of "We jump the shark, in every way."

I'm guessing this wedding idea is a shark-jumping joke.

[Mr Prophet]

Spoiler:

In a recent interview or something, AT referred to ep 200 in terms of "We jump the shark, in every way."

I'm guessing this wedding idea is a shark-jumping joke.

I'm not sure you coudl save this one with an actual shark.

[Frostfox]

I'm not sure you could save this one with an actual shark.

I'll just be happy to know that TPTB think that 'S/J white wedding on the ramp' shtick is as big a jump the shark moment as the rest of us do!

FF

[Pagan Twylight]

I read the same thing, but my first thoughts were that if they were doing it in that way then it meant that they weren't doing it in the "actual" show. I seem to remember one of TPTB saying something to the affect that the two hundredth episode wasn't considered, by them, to be "part of" the ongoing show and the stuff in it and the one hundredth were just poking fun at themselves and some of the fans. No, I have no idea where I read it, but I think it was in one of the interviews they did not long ago.

My other thought on the subject is that if they do "that" then it is finally brought to a close and hopefully it is ended. The J/Sers get their "happy ending" but the SG1 canon isn't affected by "it" because it didn't actually happen. Thank the Goddess for that.

In one way, I hate to see it happen at all. In another, I am hoping this ends it. They can scream canon because it was in the "show" all they want, that won't change the fact that, in fact, it did not happen to Samantha Carter and Jack O'Neill.

At any rate, at this point, until I see it, I'm not going to let it disturb me too much. If it was in a regular episode, I'd be planning on being sick everytime one of them walked into a scene. As it stands, we can only hope that they will have the decency to point out that it could not be done in reality due to their respective careers.

[mod snip - leave the J/Sers alone, please]

Pagan

[Dani347]

My other thought on the subject is that if they do "that" then it is finally brought to a close and hopefully it is ended. The J/Sers get their "happy ending" but the SG1 canon isn't affected by "it" because it didn't actually happen. Thank the Goddess for that.

Pagan

Spoiler:

My thinking is, this is going to turn into trying to please everyone and pleasing no one. We'll have to sit through seeing a wedding -fake or not, it'll still be on the screen. The shippers will feel like they're being toyed with, with a fake wedding. That's not what they want. I mean the ones who want that. They want the real deal (and honestly, from their pov, I don't blame them). Or else the AU's would be enough. I think at most there will be people who don't care, but a lot of people on either side of the spectrum who will be p*ssed off. Although, I think I'd enjoy it if they did it and did the whole "if anyone can give just cause...." and a shark stood up