Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

If "fishing" is supposed to be some euphemism for hot monkey love between Jack and Sam (I'm sorry, vomit buckets provided at the door) then that didn't happen until way into season 8.

Hm, if "fishing' means "sex' in the Stargate universe, Teal'c went "fishing" with Jack way back in 'The Curse'... And he invited Daniel when his appendix had gone splat. Hm.

FF with some novel images floating through her mind right now.

[Jace021903]

I think in many ways, SG-1 is/was like a family... and Hammond was the father figure overseeing everything. So while it was acceptable to me that these family members found romance outside of their family structure, it was odd that they would want to romance one another (occupational demands aside). I suspect RDA felt the same which is why I think he was uncomfortable with romancing Carter. To their credit, TPTB were very good at portraying the familial relationship... because I was drawn to it... the banter and the pathos. It was really the glue that held the show together. This was also evident in S1 of Atlantis. Romance between cast members just didn't fit into the show's ethos.

Perhaps that's why some fans had such a negative reaction to Divide and Conquer. Even though, Jack occassionally noticed that Sam was a girl, the show very much had a family feel to it. They went a totally different way with the dynamics in season 4. I miss the family feel; it's what attracted me to the show more than anything else.

One of my current telly favourites is Numb3rs... a lot of the technical gobbledegook just goes over my head but I usually get the gist of things. However, what really draws me to the show is how wonderfully poignant the immediate family and extended family relationship is portrayed. Numb3rs has some of the best writing I've seen on a crime show... it balances out the technical/procedural aspects with the emotional aspects without making the show pretentious or over the top. Something that the CSI shows don't always manage.

Numb3rs is a great show.

[scarimor]

... it goes some way in explaining the lack of enthusiasm on RDA's part (except as a comedic device)... It always looked to me that he had just swallowed a tub of sour yoghurt every time he had to emote in some "ship" related moment.

Don't know about that - RDA was Executive Producer. His name came before the the title of the show. He had a very big say. If he hadn't wanted it there he could have put his foot down.

In a recent interview AT says that she resented the ship, though.

I heard a rumour that one reason RDA wanted some kind of current female love interest for Jack (whether consumated or otherwise) was because he didn't like the Jack/Daniel slash aspects of fandom, and wanted to make it clear that Jack is het. Can't authenticate that one as yet, though.

[scarimor]

Perhaps that's why some fans had such a negative reaction to Divide and Conquer. Even though, Jack occassionally noticed that Sam was a girl, the show very much had a family feel to it. They went a totally different way with the dynamics in season 4. I miss the family feel; it's what attracted me to the show more than anything else.

The shippy revelation scene in Divide and Conquer was a true gagh! moment for me. It spoiled an otherwise interesting and rich episode. I thought... omg, out admirable colonel is moping after his 2IC... noooo, they can't do this to us!

I was extremely relieved that she showed no sign of reciprocating his "more than I'm supposed to" in that episode, though. It was a small blessing.

[Frostfox]

The shippy revelation scene in Divide and Conquer was a true gagh! moment for me. It spoiled an otherwise interesting and rich episode. I thought... omg, out admirable colonel is moping after his 2IC... noooo, they can't do this to us!

I was extremely relieved that she showed no sign of reciprocating his "more than I'm supposed to" in that episode, though. It was a small blessing.

The main reason I didn't like that episode wasn't that scene, it was killing Martouf, an interesting and useful character.

Jack wouldn't have left any of his team (indeed, any member of the SGC) in that situation in Upgrades.
And he cares for all of them more than he should.

admirable colonel is moping after his 2IC... noooo, they can't do this to us!

But they did, and for no good reason, they couldn't carry out a relationship without annoying their much vaunted Airforce liasion and without massacring the integrity of two of their characters. A loose/loose situation all round.
You really do have to wonder what they though they were doing?

FF edited to add, I love, love, love your Replicater Carter tops sig!

[Dani347]

Don't know about that - RDA was Executive Producer. His name came before the the title of the show. He had a very big say. If he hadn't wanted it there he could have put his foot down.

In a recent interview AT says that she resented the ship, though.

I heard a rumour that one reason RDA wanted some kind of current female love interest for Jack (whether consumated or otherwise) was because he didn't like the Jack/Daniel slash aspects of fandom, and wanted to make it clear that Jack is het. Can't authenticate that one as yet, though.

Well, if that rumor has any merit it only goes to show that he doesn't understand fandom. People are going to ship or slash whoever they please and no screaming on the show is going to change their minds.

Like I said, I know people slash characters who are on totally different shows and have never met. And, people stay completely true to ships that have died, that have one character gone from the show. Because for them, it's their idea of true love or (forgive me) "meant to be"

And, giving the ornery aspect of human nature (at least any nature like mine ) the more people are told they're wrong and to stop thinking a certain way, the more they're going to dig their heels in and keep right on doing what they're doing.

eta: But, if that was the reason, wouldn't doing some Kirking (another thing I'm not fond of) have sufficed? Wasn't Laira or Kerry -especially if Kerry had come earlier and had more of purpose than being a foil to the J/S ship have been enough of a neon sign saying "Jack's straight!" without a relationship that could go nowhere?

[scarimor]

The main reason I didn't like that episode wasn't that scene, it was killing Martouf, an interesting and useful character.

He was - though I didn't mind the way he went. It was a more plausible sudden death of an important character than, say, Janet's, who was suddenly sent into the thick of a battle against normal protocol.

Jack wouldn't have left any of his team (indeed, any member of the SGC) in that situation in Upgrades.

Never leave a man behind. That was his big thing.

FF edited to add, I love, love, love your Replicater Carter tops sig!

cheers!

[Luz]

But they did, and for no good reason, they couldn't carry out a relationship without annoying their much vaunted Airforce liasion and without massacring the integrity of two of their characters. A loose/loose situation all round.
You really do have to wonder what they though they were doing?

Because they love playing with the shippers?, i've wondered many *many* times what not only stargates ptb are thinking when they decide to mess with ship, but tptb in general. We cannot say the S/J ship isn't there because tptb have included it, have thrown annoying anvils every once in a while, so they cannot scratch their heads asking why the shippers are expecting some sort of resolution because they (tptb) have brought this upon themselves. They alienated those who loved the team and feel that their beloved team interaction (which i've never felt from SG1, but POV and all that) was sacrificed in the name of pushing more S/J moments, and crushing any mention of the Jackson/O'neill slash.
They've pissed the anti-shippers (and that would be us) some even to the point of dropping the show altogether, and even the shippers are tired of this "will they/won't they?" idiocy. I spent nine years as a M/S shipper listening to CC say how there was not going to be any sort of sexual or romantic relationship between Mulder and Scully, how their relationship was purely platonic, and he was neve *EVER!* to ruin that. Only to have them putting all those "agent Scully is already in love", and the bedroom scene sugesting they'd slept togehter, and baby William, but oh no they'd never come out and say that Mulder and Scully did, because honesty and openness is too much to hope. Because they love to torture shippers, that's why. I've been played with too much, enough to know how this works.
And in the end, the ones that are really satisfied are a very small portion, because after be it nine, ten years, the crappy resolution is nothing like they expected, too little, too late.
For tptb the ship is all a game, and S/J will be resolved, no matter who gets pissed off, no matter how much some of us dislike the ship. It'll be a cop out, it'll possibly be as crappy as the M/S, or H/M (JAG) resolution were.

[scarimor]

Well, if that rumor has any merit it only goes to show that he doesn't understand fandom.

Agreed - if it's true. It's one of those ones I wish I could pin down.

[Frostfox]

Agreed - if it's true. It's one of those ones I wish I could pin down.

Foxy's rules of being a slash fan. Develop -
a. a thick skin.
b. the ability to be able to read between the lines
c. to ignore canon which you don't like
d. and most important of all, a sense of humour

Not that this has much to do with being anti Sam/Jack, I was a O'Brien/Bashir fan in DS9 and loved both Keiko and Ezri (particularly together... )
And I love Sam in SG1. All slash fans hating Sam is just as much a myth as all Sam or S/J fans hating Daniel.

FF

[littlebluestring]

im a shipper (cowers)

and i just wanna ask...

do you guys want jack or sam to get together with someone else? (as in jack/daniel or sam/daniel or whatever)

[harsiesis child]

I am not a shipper... But I am not sure of being an anti-shipper either
Let's just say I was disappointed of the evolution of the Sam character outside of the universe of stargate.
Ship with Pete... boring and uninteresting. He was only a kleenex, his role was to help Sam to realise the man of her life was Jack.
Well, for me ship is eventually interesting when it is included in the universe, like Sam/Orlin or Sheppard/Chaya...
Ship with "ordinary" people? does not interest me. If they want ships like that, only a few references at the very end of the serie saying they are together should suffice...

[Luz]

im a shipper (cowers)

and i just wanna ask...

do you guys want jack or sam to get together with someone else? (as in jack/daniel or sam/daniel or whatever)

hi, littlebluestring, don't worry we don't bite (that i know of ). The answer to your question would be no, i don't ship for anyone on SG1, which is weird considering that i've always had tendency to ship (i love a little romance on my sci-fi). But ship on SG1 has always been so poorly managed and unevenly developed that i just could never connect.

[Frostfox]

im a shipper (cowers)

and i just wanna ask...

do you guys want jack or sam to get together with someone else? (as in jack/daniel or sam/daniel or whatever)

Don't worry, we, don't bite and it's a perfectly reasonable question

Speaking personally, no, I'm not interested in any of the character's love lives in the show. I can't speak for any one else in this thread.

I like to read Jack/Daniel slash but I don't need the show to endorse that, the good fic writers do a much better job, in my opinion, than the show writers.

FF

[Dani347]

And I love Sam in SG1. All slash fans hating Sam is just as much a myth as all Sam or S/J fans hating Daniel.

FF

Don't you just love how people can pinpoint every opinion you have about the show just on one aspect of the show that you like?

I spent nine years as a M/S shipper listening to CC say how there was not going to be any sort of sexual or romantic relationship between Mulder and Scully, how their relationship was purely platonic, and he was neve *EVER!* to ruin that. Only to have them putting all those "agent Scully is already in love", and the bedroom scene sugesting they'd slept togehter, and baby William, but oh no they'd never come out and say that Mulder and Scully did, because honesty and openness is too much to hope. Because they love to torture shippers, that's why. I've been played with too much, enough to know how this works.

Funny, I was an M/S shipper, and it was during the platonic times that I felt that the ship itself was its strongest. I guess because the big revelation or consummation of a relationship hasn't ever been the pay off for me. There's only been one time that having someone actually say they were in a relationship got me giddy and that wasn't even a reveal because they knew they were, and the audience knew, and it was just a character admitting it to the outside world.

But, with the M/S ship I wasn't waiting for confirmation or for anything to be resolved. Some things that have been said to explain the J/S ship I saw much more clearly and logically in the M/S ship. Like the foxhole argument I've seen (I think from RCC). Two people going through such danger and sometimes traumatic experience would be drawn to each other. Except they didn't go through them alone. Daniel and Teal'c were there. We knew Sam at least wasn't isolated from everyone but Jack (and those other guys). She had Jacob as a support system, even if he was with the Tok'ra. Mulder and Scully -especially Mulder (that's another thing, I've mentioned it in the anti Daniel/Vala thread, but I've always felt the ship started and was strongest with Mulder)- really did for the most part only have each other. Mulder didn't really have a family he could go to, and even though Scully did, none of them could understand and she wanted to protect them. It really was mainly them against the world. Plus, with X-Files, I always got the feeling that trust and love were very much intertwined. So, Mulder feeling like Scully was the only one he could trust was just as good as saying he loved her. And, even before they had them kiss or had William, they showed them growing closer, not really interacting with others, feeling for each other. Sure, you might have had an episode where they were going to kiss, or some flirting, some kind of cute sign that didn't really go anywhere (like Triangle, Mulder says "I love you" but instead of it leading to anything, Scully shrugs it off with an "Oh, brother" and it's never mentioned again), but for me, the relationship wasn't about them flirting or sending glances or going out on dates. I don't know when I felt Scully reciprocated, but it wasn't with the idea they slept together or with William. Which just goes to show that tptb can't dictate the ships people are going to see. CC may have stopped them from kissing or sleeping together, but I was convinced that Mulder and Scully were in love and for all intents and purposes were together, even if it wasn't your typical "we're dating!" scenario.

And, just to tie it back with J/S ship, I never saw that those two. Them growing closer or anything like that. It was just like all of sudden being told that Jack "cared for Sam more than he should" and being told that it was different from how he cared for Daniel or Teal'c. And, then, you got various hints (about the size of a truck) spattered throughout the seasons, but never one consistent arc. It was like going for awhile with nothing blatant, and then all of sudden tptb remembered that Jack and Sam were supposed to be in love (which funny, always seemed to happen close to the end of the season). And, then, it always consisted of looks and music and lighting, but no actual talking or anything, with the exception of those awkward "conversations" Sam started to have, that always got cut short, or it came from someone on the outside telling them or someone else, or us that they were in love. Real emotion, really growing closer? Never saw it.