Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Easter Lily]

I've never figured out what the attraction between the two has been about. Even if the chemistry wasn't visible but if the two characters had something in common I could see the point of it. But unfortunately there doesn't appear to be anything that holds them together except history... But perhaps you're right about the fact that it's just purely hormonal. However, I don't know that Jack is loaded with testosterone, mostly he looks like he's got a case of ennui...

In the latter seasons I've noticed Jack becoming more and more reliant on Sam to the point of being cloying. I'm not sure if this is ship interfering but I noticed that it happened more than once in Season 6... A techinical problem would arise and Jack raise an eyebrow quizzically and immediately go "Carter?" I liked Jack playing dumb but I don't appreciate it happening once too often.


By the way, I like your new avatar, Shadow... is that from Cube?

[LoneStar1836]

One big reason why I am so anti-ship so much is that Sam is the one who usually comes out looking bad because of it.

That's one of my biggest reasons as well, along with I don't see it, no chemistry, Jam is incompatible except for shallow reasons, they can't write for it which leads to Sam being horribly disfigured by ship, etc. etc. It's one big train wreck that has derailed one too many episodes.

I’ve never really directed any hate at Sam because of ship, though I didn’t particularly care for the way she reacted to Pete when she ditched him. I blame the writers for making her act the way she does. “I’m not bad, I’m just written that way” should be Carter’s new catch phrase.

The writers have practically destroyed her character these last two seasons along with season 6’s “Paradise Lost”. Jack seems to get off easy cause he is not seen as the instigator of ship. Sam’s the one doing all the “pursuing” sort of speak. He’s just there acting all dumb about it, which just makes him look more stupid and immature hence the crap we go in Moebius II. I still want to like Sam and was hoping for good things this season with her supposedly being the “leader” of SG-1. We had slim to none character growth along those lines because basically they were too busy with ship, whether it be Pete or Jack, to bother to write any episodes dealing with that new responsibility. That is my biggest disappointment this season, and now they have squandered the opportunity because they are bringing in Lt.Col. Mitchell. Whether he is officially team leader or not, Sam will probably be pressured by him on command decisions or kowtow and just follow his lead. The writers have an opportunity to rebuild her character next season, but they probably don’t see anything wrong with the way she is now.

[tashgate]

Sam was once a wonderful character, and we do still see glimpses of the Old Sam here and there, but for the most part the writers have assassinated her character. She's been twisted by the writers almost beyond recognition. I think AT is a very talented actress and I wouldn't want to see HER get canned, but the character of Sam as she is NOW has got to go. Bring back the old Sam. The Can Sam campaign isn't about getting rid of AT, from what I've seen it's a tongue in cheek way of bringing charges against the character and the article at the SDJ site is as well. I've never seen anything but affection for the actress, but the writers are killing any sympathy a lot of us have for the character.

I was watching Maternal Instinct and Crystal Skull and Forever in a Day and a few of the other season three eps over the weekend and was amazed to do a side-by-side comparison of the characters. Primarly Jack and Sam. Wow... what a difference a few years makes. Poor Sam has been butchered by the ship-loving writers who have NO idea how to accomplish what they're trying to do, and my poor beloved Jack has apparently been attacked at some point by the Albino Brain Chiggers. Yes, Jack HAS changed and his character HAS become more dense and less humourous and a lot colder.

I compared two scenes - Daniel "coming back from the dead" in the early years and the "spacemonkey" hug... and Daniel "coming back from the dead" this last time. There was barely a reaction in the room. Yeah, I know, Daniel's come back from the dead so many dang times, but... c'mon, give us SOMETHING.

I think most of the problems I'm seeing stem from the Titanic - erm, the Sam and Jack ship. I am perfectly confident that the writers will find SOME way of raising the Titanic in season 9. After all, the chemistry has been absent all along, what should it matter if one of the characters isn't there either?

[ShadowMaat]

Ummm... No. I still don't want any part of any fan campaign that DEMANDS that changes be mande because "we" don't like it. Sam doesn't have to change and I think it's obvious from the stories and the mentalities of TPTB that she isn't going to change... not in the way some of us might like.

I've heard all about "tongue in cheek" campaigns and "bringing charges" against someone. I heard all about the "Wanted" posters featuring Brad Wright and frankly, I found it far more disturbing than funny. J"Jokey" campaigns can still hurt and often they are an excuse to viciously attack someone/something under the guise of "we were just kidding" when, in fact, they weren't kidding at all. I'm sure there were "tongue in cheek" campaigns demanding the death of Jonas Quinn, too. Thanks, but no thanks.

It's entirely possible that it IS all meant in good fun and as I said, Hell will freeze over before I ever set foot on THAT site, so I have no way of verifying the content (and to be perfectly honest, I don't really care to have it clarified for me) but I still don't like the idea of demaninding ANYTHING from the people who make the show. After events of recent years, I've even developed a certain revulsion to asking nicely if things could be changed. I only joined the Save Aiden campaign because the actor seemed so excited about it and I STILL have occasional qualms about it.

I may hate S/J ship, I may hate what Sam and Jack have both become, I may despise some of the story arcs TPTB are choosing to follow, but while I may say, "I think THIS would be better" I don't think I'd ever say, "TPTB have to make these changes!"

But that's just me.

[astronomicalchick]

I may hate S/J ship, I may hate what Sam and Jack have both become, I may despise some of the story arcs TPTB are choosing to follow, but while I may say, "I think THIS would be better" I don't think I'd ever say, "TPTB have to make these changes!"

But that's just me.

No it's not just you, it's me too. I think that if PTB go a direction I don't want them to go in, I'd just stop watching. I wouldn't write in and demand that something should happen, I'd just lose interest. I might rant on and on about it in a forum like this, but that's as far as I'd go.

I'm not at all happy with the changes being put forward for Season 2 of Atlantis (in particular) and neither am I at all excited at Ben Browder joining SG-1 (am I the only one that feels like that?), but if they don't work, I'll stop watching.

I'm not going to watch season 9 anyway, who knows I might eat my words!

[tashgate]

Ummm... No. I still don't want any part of any fan campaign that DEMANDS that changes be mande because "we" don't like it. Sam doesn't have to change and I think it's obvious from the stories and the mentalities of TPTB that she isn't going to change... not in the way some of us might like.

No, I'm quite sure you're right about TPTB and their inclinations to keep destroying that poor character.

As for the campaigns - they have a right to exist, and you have a right not to support them. You have a right not to read them, I have the right to say that the statements they make are representative in a large part of what I've been thinking and feeling for a long time. Whatever floats our individual boats.

I'm a consumer and when someone changes a product I liked I have the right to kvetch about it. After all, all I want is to continue to like the product as I always have and I want to continue to be a consumer.

[Katerine]

I'm a consumer and when someone changes a product I liked I have the right to kvetch about it. After all, all I want is to continue to like the product as I always have and I want to continue to be a consumer.

Not to mention, I believe campaigners are actually doing a service to TPTB.

I think it's very likely that most fans of the show (by which I mean the vast majority who watch the show but aren't rabid enough to actually go on boards and post about it) have noticed (or will eventually notice) a decrease in quality, but the show isn't important enough to them to warrant figuring out why. They just do what most people do, and either keep watching in the hopes that it will get better, or they stop watching.

So, put yourself in the shoes of TPTB. Here you are, giving the fans what they apparently want, and ratings... drop. You don't know why. Maybe it's because it's changed channels. Maybe it's changed times. Maybe the fans aren't pleased with the writing, but for the life of you, you can't figure out why. Maybe you haven't included enough ship...

[ShadowMaat]

Well, that's certainly an... interesting interpretation of things, and it's one I don't happen to share.

Television survived quite well without the internet, without campaigns and without fans making arrogant demands of the production staff. Just because it has become de rigeur to believe that what the fans want is more important than TPTB's interpretation of the integrity of the show doesn't make it any more or less true. Some fans see it that way, some fans think it's simply "expressing themselves" about the product, and others don't give a flying monkey either way.

I'm not saying fan campaigns shouldn't happen and I'm not saying fans don't have a right to express themselves in the manners that they see fit, but for me personally, I'm very leery of the idea that TPTB are somehow obligated to listen to us, or that all campaigns are performing a "needed service" to them. They might be nowhere without the fans, but if it weren't for TPTB, there'd be no fans in the first place. It's a neat little circle and one I'm not inclined to mar. I am also not inclined to presume I speak for a majority of fandom.

But this is all getting off topic. This thread isn't about the rightness/wrongness/existence of fan campaigns, it's about a dislike of S/J ship and on THAT score, I think we can all agree.

[tashgate]

But this is all getting off topic. This thread isn't about the rightness/wrongness/existence of fan campaigns, it's about a dislike of S/J ship and on THAT score, I think we can all agree.

HECK YES. And, back ON that topic... I would like to know HOW in the world two people who've apparently never in eight or nine YEARS of being in one another's constant company be in LOVE when they've never had more than five minutes of personal conversation. I think the closest I ever saw to a personal conversation between Sam and Jack was in Nemesis - and that was, what... three minutes? They've never had a deep personal conversation (Lost City, she tries twice to ask about personal things and he shuts her RIGHT down) they've never had a fight (about anything other than "work" issues)... How does this even qualify as a personal relationship nevermind a great burning emotional love?

[NightGloom]

... and Daniel "coming back from the dead" this last time. There was barely a reaction in the room. Yeah, I know, Daniel's come back from the dead so many dang times, but... c'mon, give us SOMETHING.

Ah! You forgot Bra'tac's creepy smile- I'm shocked a slash thread hasn't been started for them.

The conversations that Sam and Jack have had over the years have probably been the most uncomfortable things I've ever seen on television. Especially in the more recent episodes where it got really bad. But I think Grace is what did it in for me. That episode really seemed like it was just all Sam chasing after Jack and that's what I tend to think of now when they write in shippy stuff. Jack just looks so uncomfortable most of the time, which could work for the ship in a way (especially if there was some kind of chemistry between them), but it really doesn't.

[keshou]

Everyone's made a lot of good points in the last few posts and I appreciate the discussion. Valid points get lost to me as my eyes tend to glaze over at the DEOD moniker. I don't really care for fan campaigns or cutesy derogatory nicknames for the characters. However I've learned to grin and laugh them off. Except when I'm in a pissy mood like last night.

Generally speaking, I think it is the female populace of fandom that gets up in arms over Sam. *snip* Many of us may believe that we are independent, intelligent women and Sam's recent propensity to look haplessly in Jack's direction may be seen as an insult to that independence that we value both in Sam and in ourselves.

*nods* I do think that's a large part of it. Most of the participants in "ship talk" - whether pro or anti seem to be female. And I admit that there's been several times when the writers have Sam do or say something that makes make cringe for her as a representative professional women - or even just non-stupid women. For example I really hated the scene in Heroes:

Spoiler:

where she gets asked by the reporter about Jack and Sam responded with all the aplomb of a head cheerleader who has a thing for the quarterback. IMO, any professional woman who's had "feelings" for a co-worker/boss that's been "left in the room" would go out of their way to be low-key and professional in their response - not gush to a reporter.

I just think Jack has been about as bad. He's not willing to have an adult conversation to either a) tell Sam he doesn't feel the same way she obviously still does or b) tell Sam he also has strong feeling and they need to make some changes so they can move forward with their relationship. I thought the scene in Affinity

Spoiler:

where she showed him the ring box was pretty pathetic on his part. He gave her a non-answer and then an angsty look before letting the ring box lid snap shut. Way to leave her twisting in the wind.

Jack seems to get off easy cause he is not seen as the instigator of ship. Sam’s the one doing all the “pursuing” sort of speak. He’s just there acting all dumb about it, which just makes him look more stupid and immature hence the crap we go in Moebius II.

I don't see Sam doing the pursuing so much as trying to feel Jack out and have an adult conversation about their situation. Unfortunately due to the plot contrivances of television it's led to these awkward scenes at Jack's house. (And I hope I never see another of those! ) I think Sam picks up that he's attracted to her, that he may STILL have strong feelings for her and she's wanted to put it on the table and either "ship" or get off the pot. Then Jack just acts all dumb and gets off the hook.

And sadly, after at least an attempt at a mature resolution in Threads, they had to produce Moebius. See Shadow's post above - she covered it.

But really - away from the Jack relationship - I've enjoyed the little bits we've seen of Sam being in command of the team. Especially liked her in Reckoning II. Maybe we'll see more of that in S9 now that Jack's going to be MIA. IF they can resist the urge to ship Sam and Cam ("Scam"). Half the reason I think they've given them the same rank is so they can call each other by their first names. So I'm suspicious already.

[tashgate]

Maybe we'll see more of that in S9 now that Jack's going to be MIA. IF they can resist the urge to ship Sam and Cam ("Scam"). Half the reason I think they've given them the same rank is so they can call each other by their first names. So I'm suspicious already.

I'm suspicious too, and I hate that. I really hate it. I'd like to see Sam BACK, ready to rock and roll as a Lt. Col. I'd like to see her deal as a professional with Mitchell. I'd like to see her standing on her own two feet as an individual character, a strong, independent leader in her own right. Not shipped with someone. Not pining. Not mooning. Just.... SAM.

[yasureubetcha]

HECK YES. And, back ON that topic... I would like to know HOW in the world two people who've apparently never in eight or nine YEARS of being in one another's constant company be in LOVE when they've never had more than five minutes of personal conversation. I think the closest I ever saw to a personal conversation between Sam and Jack was in Nemesis - and that was, what... three minutes? They've never had a deep personal conversation (Lost City, she tries twice to ask about personal things and he shuts her RIGHT down) they've never had a fight (about anything other than "work" issues)... How does this even qualify as a personal relationship nevermind a great burning emotional love?

Absolutely. They might have the basis for an attraction, maybe. (Threads)

Spoiler:

But anything worth ditching an engagement and retiring for?

Never.

Part of me hopes it blows up in their faces (offscreen of course, where it won't waste our time) in S9, and Jack's left with the shreds of his ambition, and Sam with the shreds of her personal life. Not that it would help anything character-wise, but Tashgate is right; the lengths to which the two of them are willing to go for this 'ship are absurd.

The only good thing about the events of Threads is that Sam should be able to come more into her own since she (hopefully) won't be 'shipping with anyone else onscreen, and with the hunky boss gone will be able to focus on her job again instead of the newest addition to her gallery of broken hearts.

[LoneStar1836]

I don't see Sam doing the pursuing so much as trying to feel Jack out and have an adult conversation about their situation.

Yeah well bad choice of words. I didn’t really mean it like she’s trying to hit on him ever chance she gets. I guess what I was trying to say was that the decision of will they or won’t they, all gets dumped on Sam while Jack’s just over there in the corner being more of less ambivalent. We see the ship stuff from mostly her perspective so it looks like she is the one thinking about it all the time. She goes on the tirade in Paradise Lost, and then the whole thing with Grace and on and on. We don’t get much of that from Jack’s side, imo. Jack’s counterpart to Sam’s Paradise Lost was Grace. It just made him look callous to the situation (like when he got all pissy at Daniel) even though that’s how he seems to confront situations like that and doesn’t get all excited, but still the acting came across wrong in Grace for him in my opinion. I think I hated that part more than the stuff going on on the actual ship. I guess that was the writers attempt to show Jack “cared more than he should have”.

Yeah, if he’d be a man about it and just say something to her one way or the other. So he’s just as much to blame, but the writers have protected him by making Sam the scapegoat by showing most of the ship from her perspective.

Then Jack just acts all dumb and gets off the hook.

Well he’s the master at that.

IF they can resist the urge to ship Sam and Cam ("Scam"). Half the reason I think they've given them the same rank is so they can call each other by their first names. So I'm suspicious already.

At least no one will be smashing their names together. If they ship her with anyone else, the character will be totally irredeemable. I can forgive her for the Jack bleh, but her and the new guy.....

[Madeleine]

Jack’s counterpart to Sam’s Paradise Lost was Grace. It just made him look callous to the situation.

Further to my previous comments about Sam taking most of the flak for ship, I know that I've criticised Jack masses for how cold and useless he was in Grace; but since I never managed to see his cold uselessness as shippy I did all my criticism of him in the episode threads, or other threads more relevant (to me) than this.