Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[ShadeAngel]

Oh, thank god. I'd begun to think I was the only one on this whole forum 'til I stumbled upon this thread. Silly me.^.^;;;

I'm not generally a 'shipper. I like a good romance as well as the next red blooded woman, but what they've done with the J/S 'ship is just wrong. I liked when it was left up to fan interpretation. In fact, I was of the mind that there was potential there for something deeper. If, if Sam weren't directly under Jack's command. And probably not that trully, madly, deeply type love. More like a friendly, marriage of convenience type thing. Just not enough spark there...

Sam's character was seriously cheapened by what's happened through season 8 and some of season 7. She seemed so resolved to get on with her life in Grace (great epsiode, up 'til the gratuitous kissing scene), to forget the unrealistic crush she had on her CO. She met Pete, who's one helluva guy and all seems well. I thought it was, at least. She makes him wait for weeks before deciding to say yes to his pruposal and then leads him on for months after that before changing her mind. Crap. This woman has not had the greatest past with men and here comes along this funny, charming guy who seems in love with her and she changes her mind? For a man she has no future with. Not even a hope.

It's all so very out of character. She can marry Joe in the 2010 alternate timeline, but Pete she gives up...

And... I'm not usually so pro-Pete. That's a little odd. I'm also very sorry if I'm just reiterating stuff that's been brough up in this thread before, but I saw just how many pages there are to this thread and just about went crosseyed.

[yasureubetcha]

I used to like the Sam/Jack potential specifically because the military-thing prevented any overt relationship. I think Sam/Daniel might've been a good couple, except that I like my 'ship either subtle or impossible, whereas with nothing to stand in their way Sam/Daniel could've been together and apart a hundred times by now on the show, which for Sci fi is just wrong. What seemed to maybe be going on between Jack and Sam at least since D&C lessened the number of romances for both characters, which I took as a positive. And until Threads I disliked Pete; however, after seeing how sweet he could be I like him. I think Sam shouldn't squander the great thing she has in him.

On the names smashed together thing...I'm guilty of that. I think it's funny, and "Smifth" is better than the actual name of the thread, which I believe is "The Sam/Someone whose name would be a spoiler for New Order shipper thread," despite the fact that the name isn't really a spoiler in itself. I don't know how things work for the Atlantis 'ships, but it seems to me that most of the SG1 'ships so named are the fringe ones. Sam/Jack wants to be (and is) taken pretty seriously, whether you're pro or anti, but for 'ships which aren't ever going to be canonized (ex. Sam/Ba'al, Sam/Thor, Sam/Fifth), why not?
MartoufMarty's the only one I've heard object to the name "Replicarter"--how is a "witty" name for a 'ship any different from one for a character?

[ShadowMaat]

It's just a personal preference. "Replicarter" is a more or less accurate description of the character, but the shippy name mashing thing is just... ugh. Sorry, but personally I find it a little bit degrading, both to the characters and to the intelligence levels of fans. I know a lot of people love it, but for me it seems like some idiotic giggly schoolgirl thing that should have been left dead and buried in a shoebox out on the playground.

Each character is different and unique and even though they're fictional, I still think they should be given at least the small respect of not ruining their names. If anyone took MY name and tried to smash it with someone else, they'd be finding little body parts all over the forum for WEEKS. I find it insulting and massively childish and while others may think it's cute and fun, I find it utterly repulsive and want no part of it.

[tashgate]

While I'm comforted that Jack won't be in most of the eps next season, and that there will be weeks where I can just sit back and know that I'm going to be able to enjoy the show without that sense of looming dread that there's going to be Doe-Eyed Sam showing up at her boss' house to try AGAIN to tell him she wuvs him.... I'm really truly afraid that the writers I no longer trust to handle characters are going to have a nasty little surprise for us later in the season.

Yep, there's plenty of OTHER ship potential out there, gotta hook everyone up or there's no sense in having a show... I do like Ben Browder and was a huge Farscape fan. I also like Claudia Black very much and if they'd just tweak Vala's character a little (and not try to immediately pair her off with someone) she could be a fun addition to the occasional guest star roster.

BTW - how nice that Sam was apparently enjoying herself so much out fishing and not wasting any time doing something like... I don't know.... visiting with her brother and his kids after the death of their father... phhhhht.... I guess we'll never hear about Jacob again, or Janet. The Sam we THOUGHT we knew from the first seasons would have shown a little more caring about people OTHER than the boss she's making sheep's eyes at. Where's Cassie? Is Sam still going to wherever she's living now to play chess every other Saturday when she's on Earth, or are those the days she instead goes driving by Jack's house? I DETEST what they've done to Sam.

And I have a bad feeling that we haven't even seen THE WORST of it yet.

I think it would be hard to have much ship without Jack, but I'm sure TPTB will find a billion ways to IMPLY things.

However, while there may be no overt S/J ship, there's still plenty of room for OTHER types of ship, especially with Ben Browder coming onboard. And, of course, the "temporary" return of Vala. Gods help us...

[ShadowMaat]

Well, you know, a woman isn't complete unless she has a man in her life. And a man isn't really a man unless he's found some moon-struck chick to shag him senseless.

It's a shame that people- especially TPTB- feel the need to "pair up" people. Sure, love and romance really happen, but they don't ALWAYS happen, they don't happen with consistency and they certainly don't happen to every major character. There are a lot of successful people in the world who get along quite nicely without a significant other. But sex = ratings, so we get suffused with it. How sad...

My biggest complaint is that S/J ship does not, in my opinion, add to our understanding of the characters. It's used as a substitute for character development and in my case, instead of helping me to understand Sam and Jack, I find them increasingly incomprehensible. I look at Sam mooning over Jack and ripping Pete's heart from his chest with nary a thought and I think, "Who is this idiot and what has she done with Sam??"

I know it's more the writers' fault than anything, but their writing makes me like the characters less. I enjoy the show less because of their insistence on shipping Sam and Jack... and of forcing other characters together just so they can add a bit of sex to spice things up. *sigh* It's a shame, because I really used to love SG-1 and now I can't really be bothered to watch it anymore.

[tashgate]

My biggest complaint is that S/J ship does not, in my opinion, add to our understanding of the characters. It's used as a substitute for character development and in my case, instead of helping me to understand Sam and Jack, I find them increasingly incomprehensible. I look at Sam mooning over Jack and ripping Pete's heart from his chest with nary a thought and I think, "Who is this idiot and what has she done with Sam??"

It doesn't add to our understanding of the characters, it doesn't ADD to ANYTHING. It comes out of left field every single time they decide to drag it up and cram it down our throats. Neither actor looks comfortable with it, and AT said in numerous interviews early in the show's run that she was glad that they were NOT "hooking Sam up" and just letting her be a strong character all on her own. She also expressed her own opinion that Jack and Sam should NOT get together. The Sam we see now is NOT "our Sam", the one we loved and looked up to as a role model in the early seasons. There's a big difference between character development and character assassination. They've assassinated the real Sam and replaced her with some starry-eyed teenage dope. I have nothing against the characters having lives outside of work, or falling in love if that's what happens, but for heaven's sake, it needs to happen naturally and the characters involved need to have some chemistry and it should not turn a great character into a ninny.

[Katerine]

It's just a personal preference. "Replicarter" is a more or less accurate description of the character, but the shippy name mashing thing is just... ugh. Sorry, but personally I find it a little bit degrading, both to the characters and to the intelligence levels of fans. I know a lot of people love it, but for me it seems like some idiotic giggly schoolgirl thing that should have been left dead and buried in a shoebox out on the playground.

Each character is different and unique and even though they're fictional, I still think they should be given at least the small respect of not ruining their names. If anyone took MY name and tried to smash it with someone else, they'd be finding little body parts all over the forum for WEEKS. I find it insulting and massively childish and while others may think it's cute and fun, I find it utterly repulsive and want no part of it.

Oddly enough, I think the fact that we're even having this discussion is a good example of why S/J is so bad. If this convention has made it to the Stargate fandom, that says a lot. And I'm not even referring to the fact that the only two possible combinations for their names are Jam and Sack.

I first encountered the whole "name-smashing" thing way, way back when I was an avid fan of "Guiding Light." That's a daytime soap-opera, if there's anybody out there who doesn't know that. The web was still in its early stages, but the site that I was on already had the convention of smashing together the names of couples.

Oddly enough, I think the main reason the convention got started was to make a statement. That is, ships are an entity in and of themselves, and so they are referred to as such. Using the only example from Guiding Light that I still remember, Josh and Reva were continually referred to as "Jova." It's easier than continually referring to "Josh and Reva." And since there is no Josh without Reva and vice versa, why bother separating them?

If this convention has made it into the Stargate fandom, that could be interpreted as saying quite a lot about the show. Because not only does it imply that the show is now truly and officially a soap opera, it also implies that the characters have lost all traces of individuality.

Do the writers just not understand that we actually want to see three-dimensional characters who are defined by more than just whom they are with?

[tashgate]

In a word... "No".

I really believe they have no concept of this and as long as the shippers continue to fawn over the writers and squeal the loudest on the internet the writers will NEVER get the point.

The anti-shippers and noromos are just not the vocal majority on the web. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to the actual numbers and statistics on who the viewers are and what they want. Most of the SG-1 fans I know out in the real world are completely squicked by the adolescent ship this show has presented them with, but they're not involved in online communities, forums and fandoms so they're never going to be heard... until they change the channel and stop buying the products (box sets, etc).

Do the writers just not understand that we actually want to see three-dimensional characters who are defined by more than just whom they are with?

[Frostfox]

In a word... "No".

I really believe they have no concept of this and as long as the shippers continue to fawn over the writers and squeal the loudest on the internet the writers will NEVER get the point.

The anti-shippers and noromos are just not the vocal majority on the web. That doesn't mean anything when it comes to the actual numbers and statistics on who the viewers are and what they want. Most of the SG-1 fans I know out in the real world are completely squicked by the adolescent ship this show has presented them with, but they're not involved in online communities, forums and fandoms so they're never going to be heard... until they change the channel and stop buying the products (box sets, etc).

This is something I just don't understand.
I came to Stargate after 6 years in Trek fandom as a DS9 fan and the Paramount powers that be were very strictly kept apart from the fans, frustrating as that might have been at times, it was infinitely better than the hash job Stargate TPTB have made trying to keep all sides happy.

And most of my fannish friends in the UK who are S/J fans were unhappy with the end of season 8 as they didn't feel that the relationship was well resolved anyway.

[in circles]

Pretty much everything I was thinking has already been said.
Ever since I started watching the show I've found the relationship between the characters awkward. I was rolling my eyes all through 'Divide and Conquer'. It's gotten worse as the series goes on and it's at the point where Sam seems a completely different character now.

[tashgate]

Only your eyes were rolling? My STOMACH was rolling. I stopped taping about fifteen minutes before the end of the ep and it was about three years before my roommate (another gate fan) even knew what happened at the end. I'd sucessfully kept him from seeing it in syndication for ages because I knew he'd torture me about it. It became "the episode we will never discuss".

Threads is now the current, "Episode that will never be discussed in this house or I will NOT be able to continue watching the show."

It's gotten a LOT worse since season four. They can go along for a good number of eps without so much as a hint of anything and when I start to enjoy the show again, BAM, out of left field comes some utterly ABSURD moment that makes me wonder WHAT they're thinking.

For crying out loud, Jack just looks constipated every time Sam goes into Stalker Mode and shows up at his house.

Pretty much everything I was thinking has already been said.
Ever since I started watching the show I've found the relationship between the characters awkward. I was rolling my eyes all through 'Divide and Conquer'. It's gotten worse as the series goes on and it's at the point where Sam seems a completely different character now.

[tashgate]

There's a Can Carter campaign here

http://cancarter.stripdaniel.com/

I think it's beyond ridiculous that the writers have let it go to this extreme. People who genuinely adored the character of Sam now would rather see her off the show completely than continue in the direction they're taking her. This has nothing to do with the performance of the actress. AT does a fine job, but when they assassinate Sam's character there isn't much she can do about it. She can only work with the poor material she's being given.

[Jace021903]

There's a Can Carter campaign here

http://cancarter.stripdaniel.com/

I think it's beyond ridiculous that the writers have let it go to this extreme. People who genuinely adored the character of Sam now would rather see her off the show completely than continue in the direction they're taking her. This has nothing to do with the performance of the actress. AT does a fine job, but when they assassinate Sam's character there isn't much she can do about it. She can only work with the poor material she's being given.

Wow.

Honestly, I wouldn't miss the current Sam at all if she never came back. I am tired of watching the show with my hand half covering my face in dread of what new depths the writers will have Sam sink to.

That makes me sad because I adore Amanda. Everytime I see a behind the scenes special or an interview with her, I find myself wishing that I liked her character more.

Has Sam ever had a storyline that didn't involve someone falling for her?

[Katerine]

Has Sam ever had a storyline that didn't involve someone falling for her?

Jolinar. Jacob. The Tok'ra. Cassie. Science. I miss those days.

[yasureubetcha]

Nope, there was the whole Jolinar/Martouf/"I have also become fond of YOU, Major Carter" bit in the Tok'ra eps.