Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Dani347]

It has been seven years, and characters DO change over the course of seven years. You are not the same person you were seven years ago, and we've all had times in our lives when we were feeling weaker, more shippy, more introspective or whatever.

I've been with my coworkers for years, and I've never grown shippy, let alone more shippy towards them. And ditto to everyone that change isn't always good.

If the characters and relationships didn't grow and change the show would be flat and unrealistic. I think our real beef is with the writers and their inability to keep the character development and personal lives in the subtext and without crippling the characters. RDA's growing detachment isn't helping the writers either.

I find the ship flat and unrealistic. Putting Jack and Sam in some gag inducing attempt at who the heck knows what, since it's not a relationship, may be change, but it sure as heck isn't growth. My real beef is the ship is unrealistic (did I also say gag inducing?), it makes Sam especially look silly, Jack just looks bored (oh, my, am I feeling the passion ), they have no chemistry whatsoever, and I can't believe either one would want to be in a relationship with the other.

[keshou]

I had no idea there were such (violently) strong feelings about this until I read this thread! Points taken; I definitely have some new thoughts to ponder. but also keep in mind you can't blame our perceived decline of the series on this one thing only.

I absolutely don't blame the decline of the series on this one thing. I still like the show but I think it peaked in seasons 3-4. Since then the episodes have been less consistently good, the story arcs have been weaker, the character interactions have been less exciting. The Jack/Sam relationship is just a part of the show that seems to get a lot of attention in fandom.

It has been seven years, and characters DO change over the course of seven years. You are not the same person you were seven years ago, and we've all had times in our lives when we were feeling weaker, more shippy, more introspective or whatever.

I like character growth and change and I didn't even mind that Sam turned a little introspective in the last half of season 7. I think it would be unrealistic not to see Daniel changed after his experiences or not to see Teal'c change from being on Earth. I wasn't even surprised that they brought the J/S thing back up - I figured they would eventually. But it just wasn't written very well. IMO.

Daniel barely had any repercussions from his ascension/descension. I literally cringed over a few of Sam and Jack's scenes in the last half of S7. And the S/J had mostly been a non-factor for me before that. I classifed myself as a non-shipper not an anti-shipper. And then, with the major change in status for Sam in season 8 they've virtually ignored that more interesting character development to concentrate on her love life. So far. Maybe it will be better in the last half of season 8. I do think the episodes sound like they're going to be pretty good, even with the S/J ship on the horizon.

If the characters and relationships didn't grow and change the show would be flat and unrealistic. I think our real beef is with the writers and their inability to keep the character development and personal lives in the subtext and without crippling the characters. RDA's growing detachment isn't helping the writers either.

Well I'll agree with you there.

[keshou]

We have vodka. You wanna dunk a cookie in our vodka?

I plan on having a pitcher of frozen margaritas on hand for the season (series?) finale. I think I'm going to need it.

So, sounds like our family drinks a lot, eh?

[ShadowMaat]

but also keep in mind you can't blame our perceived decline of the series on this one thing only.

Yes, but this isn't a thread about the decline of the show, it's a thread for those who are against Sam/Jack ship, so we discuss the decline of the show as it relates to the thread topic.

Is ship the ONLY reason why the show is going "bad"? No. At least not in MY opinion. But it is symptomatic of the over-all problem and it makes for a good launch point, particularly here in the anti S/J ship thread.

[Jonisa]

Daniel barely had any repercussions from his ascension/descension. I literally cringed over a few of Sam and Jack's scenes in the last half of S7. And the S/J had mostly been a non-factor for me before that. I classifed myself as a non-shipper not an anti-shipper. And then, with the major change in status for Sam in season 8 they've virtually ignored that more interesting character development to concentrate on her love life. So far. Maybe it will be better in the last half of season 8. I do think the episodes sound like they're going to be pretty good, even with the S/J ship on the horizon.

Agreeing completely. I've always considered myself a non-shipper as well, but the second half of Season 7 about did me in. My biggest beef with the whole ship thing is that I was in a place where I really didn't care one way or the other, and most of the time I could ignore it. I'm interested in other aspects and other relationships on the show. Season 7 didn't let me do that, it shoved it in my face so much I couldn't get away from it.

Not only that, I suspect the emphasis on ship might have taken away from other possible storylines. Wasn't The Lost City at one time going to be the series ender? I can't believe they were planning on ending the series without explaining the questions remaining from Daniel's ascension, or the fate of the Jaffa. Nope, instead of that we got episode after episode of them injecting scenes of Sam mooning over Jack, even when (IMO), they didn't fit. (E.g. Evolution).

I felt like yelling at my tv, "I got it already. The have feeeeellllliiiiiings for each other. Do you have to show me over and over and over again? I don't care about this! Can you please show me something else?"

Now Sam is in charge of the team, and so far her only storyline has been this (IMO) boring relationship with Pete and how she's conflicted because it interferes with her (IMO) even more boring non-relationship with Jack. I don't care if Sam gets with Jack, Pete, or the UPS delivery guy, I'm not all that interested. Here's hoping Sam gets some other storyline besides ship in the second half of Season 8.

I don't even mind if there's subtle ship at the end, because I've always had the philosophy that my wish for very little shippiness is no better or worse than someone else's wish for ship. If they can find a way to make it subtle I'll go away happy, because I can ignore a lot. Unfortunately, based on how much it's been shoved in our faces already, I don't think that is going to happen.

[ShadowMaat]

Look at Chimera as a good example of ship ruining a good storyline. Daniel and Osiris should have been the main focus. What was going on with them and what happened to Osiris was massively important, but it gets stuffed off to the sidelines and dismissed because of the whole Sam/Pete/Jack thing. I mean, I like Pete, but that whole storyline with him was an absolute disaster and he should have been a minor point, not a major one. Let's try and focus on PLOT, not romance. I think I posted my interpretation of how Chimera should have been over on the "How would you have done S7" thread... or somewhere in that area... Major, major disaster in terms of story development, all for the sake of an unrealistic plot device.

[yoojoo]

Look at Chimera as a good example of ship ruining a good storyline. Daniel and Osiris should have been the main focus. What was going on with them and what happened to Osiris was massively important, but it gets stuffed off to the sidelines and dismissed because of the whole Sam/Pete/Jack thing. I mean, I like Pete, but that whole storyline with him was an absolute disaster and he should have been a minor point, not a major one. Let's try and focus on PLOT, not romance. I think I posted my interpretation of how Chimera should have been over on the "How would you have done S7" thread... or somewhere in that area... Major, major disaster in terms of story development, all for the sake of an unrealistic plot device.

Couldn't agree with you more!! So hows abouts we turn the show into a soap opera....sci fi just so overrated!! The ep missed out on all the cool sci fi stuff in shoulda and coulda had!!! Plus, I love Osiris and she got crap for screen time compared to what she coulda had!!

[NightGloom]

Look at Chimera as a good example of ship ruining a good storyline. Daniel and Osiris should have been the main focus. What was going on with them and what happened to Osiris was massively important, but it gets stuffed off to the sidelines and dismissed because of the whole Sam/Pete/Jack thing. I mean, I like Pete, but that whole storyline with him was an absolute disaster and he should have been a minor point, not a major one. Let's try and focus on PLOT, not romance. I think I posted my interpretation of how Chimera should have been over on the "How would you have done S7" thread... or somewhere in that area... Major, major disaster in terms of story development, all for the sake of an unrealistic plot device.

Argh! Don't remind me of that! I love the Osiris character and that whole story line. I hate how they completely gave that storyline that shaft and shoved the storyline of "OOoo! Look! Sam has a boyfriend and he's not dead yet!" to become the "major" plotline in the show. If I wanna see something like that I'll watch a soap opera or one of those teen-angsty things on the WB.

[Beta Candy]

Okay, I think I have an idea for a series end that would redeem Jack and Sam's much-trampled characters.

Ahem.

The Goa'uld have been defeated, but the SGC is in a battle for the very existence of Earth against some New Enemy. One that's cheap to film and willing to come to the SGC to save on budget. In the middle of the battle, Sam goes off to her lab for some reason. Makes perfect sense...or does it?

Something she's said doesn't ring true with Daniel. Curious, maybe a little apprehensive, he follows her...

...and in her lab, he witnesses her doing something evil. Probably using some ancient Goa'uld artifact he hadn't yet deciphered and she can't possibly know how to use.

Daniel: Sam?

She whirls on him... and catches him in the beam of a Goa'uld ribbon device!

Sam: So, Daniel, you have figured out my secret. It was Samantha Carter who died on that table years ago, not me.

Daniel (weakly): Jolinar?

Sam: Yes, Daniel. And as I am now the last Goa'uld in the galaxy, thanks to you, I'm also the most powerful Goa'uld in the galaxy.

Daniel: Sam? You have to fight...

Sam (in that bored Goa'uld tone): My host never particularly liked you. Besides, for all these years, it's been me you fought alongside, not Sam. It was I who Colonel O'Neill -

Jack (offscreen): That's WHOM!

Sam looks up suddenly, wide-eyed, at the door. Jack takes in the situation and promptly shoots her several times in the chest - ironically, with his sidearm. Sam crumples to the floor, dead.

Jack rushes over to hold Daniel up as he sits on the floor, recovering from the ribbon device.

Jack: You okay?

Daniel (panting): She... Jolinar!

Jack: I heard, Daniel, it's okay.

Daniel (still panting a little): Sorry, Jack.... I know you... you know...

Jack: Know what?

Daniel: ...you had feelings... just think. All this time... it was Jolinar.

Jack looks astounded at him.

Jack: For cryin' out loud, Daniel, I never had feelings for Carter. Jolinar. Whatever.

Daniel: What? But you said the... and you did that...

Jack: No, I wanted everyone to think that. It was just a red herring.

Now that Daniel is sufficiently recovered, Jack grabs his arm and helps him up.

Daniel: Red herring?

Jack: More of a distraction. For the prying eyes of the military.

Daniel: A red herring is a distraction. Wait, distraction for what?

Jack just looks at him wearily... and suddenly understanding flashes across Daniel's face.

Daniel: ...oh.

Jack: Look, don't say anything just now. Let's just get back up there and kick those what's-their-name's asses. And then we'll talk later.

Daniel: Um... Jack...

Jack: Maybe we'll go fishing. Come on. Oh, and grab that doohickey Carter was fiddling with. It must do something.

So, whatcha think?







Oh, I should maybe mention, in case you can't tell, this was supposed to be humorous.

[Madeleine]

Where's Teal'c in it?

[Beta Candy]

Oh, he's still up there fighting the New Enemy. See, what I wrote is not the very last scene, just the one that resolves the S/J thing in the best way I could think of.

[NightGloom]

Wow, that's really good! I always knew those Tok'ra were up to no good...

[Major Clanger]

Oh, I should maybe mention, in case you can't tell, this was supposed to be humorous.

I laughed so much I had a coughing fit.

but then I would, being a slasher!

[Mr Prophet]

I laughed so much I had a coughing fit.

but then I would, being a slasher!

And a bad, bad Clanger. I just think the only way to cope with it is to stop mentioning it and for Sam to take some kind of grip on her life. Marry Pete, or not, but stop mooning and deal with the real business of world-saving.

I've never really come up with any alternative romantic match for Sam, making her the only one I've never done that for in a fic. Why is this so? Frankly, because I hate writing for Champion the Wonderdrip. I guess I did write her that stalker one time, which came closer to future canon than I could have expected, right down to dancing at someone else's wedding/anniversary.

[ShadowMaat]

...Champion the Wonderdrip? Methinks I'll just slide on past that and go back to hating S/J ship.