Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[ShadowMaat]

Pssst, you guys know about the nifty new spoiler tags D&D added, right? [ spoiler ] type spoilery info here [ /spoiler ]

works really nicely and even works when quoting.

I just saw the ep Alpha & Omega and in it

Spoiler:

Jack admits that he never really loved Sam anyway and that he's hooking back up with his ex-wife Sara.

It's about time!!

Just saves a bit of space is all. And no, that obviously wasn't a real spoiler. More's the pity. *sigh*

[DJFavorite]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowMaat
I just saw the ep Alpha & Omega and in it

Spoiler:

Jack admits that he never really loved Sam anyway and that he's hooking back up with his ex-wife Sara.

It's about time!!

Just saves a bit of space is all. And no, that obviously wasn't a real spoiler. More's the pity. *sigh*

Too bad it wasn't

[glowingjellyfish]

here's what should happen as compromise romances to placate shippers and action/tekkies:

tokra anise is crestfallen because jack rejected her (Jack, you MORON )

anise in bitter vengefulness seduces Sam( WOOHOO ) Sam and Anise move to Canada and marry!) (still legal there?)

Jack - broken hearted - is comforted when he meets mary steinburgen in his local supermarket produce section look to pick up a man

they fall madly in love (quote Jack " She's just so hot!") they marry off screen

to annoy the shippers as much as the action/techies who must suffer thru offscreen descriptions of exciting events ........

and then the adventure, science, history and discovery of classic stargate sg1 writing resumes by the writers

what think u?

[Beta Candy]

This is my first post here, but I've been reading for a while. I have a tendency to come into new forums and have an inordinant amount to say, so my apologies if that gets anyone's "who does she think SHE is" feathers ruffled.

After spending WAY too many hours watching the show and reading/writing fan fiction, I stumbled onto an alternate take on this shippy stuff... that I think could maybe possibly actually be what the writers are intending. At least, I hope so. I do believe there is evidence to support it.

It always seemed to me this is a show about two guys who weren't as interested in their wives as they were in their work. It just doesn't make sense to me that ship could ever become the focus of the show, so when it seemed to become a focus, either the writers had gone completely daft or Michael Shanks was right about it being a red herring. After all, why was there no chemistry between Carter and O'Neill, if they're supposedly destined for each other? It's not that the actors can't carry it off - both have great chemistry with other characters, and it's apparent to me Amanda Tapping TRIES to keep Sam unable to connect with other people, especially Jack (she's described Sam as "one-dimensional" in DVD commentary in S5, and I thought "Grace" was an explanation for that one-dimensionality, NOT an attempt at character development). After all, how many scenes are there where Carter and O'Neill just don't "get" each other at all? How many scenes are there where Daniel and Jack don't "get" each other?

So I forced myself to re-watch 6 and 7 very carefully (thanks for the concern - yes it was hard, but I survived more or less intact, LOL), and sure enough, the hints are there. Here's my take:

From the beginning, Daniel has affected Jack more than Jack is comfortable admitting, and more than Jack affected Daniel. I don't think it would be unfair to say it's a sort of platonic love, if we're all adult enough to handle that concept here. Jack has dealt with that for the most part by putting on a front of indifference/annoyance, and I don't think anyone - including Daniel - gets the depth of those feelings (until Season 7).

When Sha're dies in mid-Season3, Jack begins to wonder if he can keep Daniel in his life forever, since in Jack's mind, getting Sha're back was Daniel's primary purpose in joining his team. When they find the harcesis baby at the end of season 3 and that whole quest seems to be resolved, Jack's worry gets even stronger. Then suddenly, at the very end of season 3, we have a scene where Jack asks Daniel to go fishing with him, and Daniel can't... so he asks Carter.

Anyone familiar with the psychological concept of affection transference? At the end of Season 3, it's hitting Jack just how much he needs Daniel, and the panic at the thought of Daniel leaving him behind forces him to look - unconsciously - for his classic plan B. Conveniently, Carter has recently made it fairly obvious she's more interested in Jack than she should be. What a convenient safe bet - nothing can come of it for obvious reasons, and yet it's something he can imagine matters to him... just in case what REALLY matters to him should decide to leave the SGC and Jack behind. And that's where the in-your-face shippiness begins - early Season 4, with D&C and all that.

(And yes, I realize a lot of this was probably NOT planned out, and had to do with bad writing, new producers, ratings, fear of Michael Shanks leaving, etc. - but these writers continuously re-interpret old eps, and I think that's what's going on in recent seasons - bear with me.)

At the end of S5, through no fault of his own, Daniel DOES leave Jack behind. But instead of turning to Carter (as SHE obviously expected!), Jack REALLY pulls away from her in Meridian, Revelations, and the first half of Season 6, despite her repeated overtures. He withdraws from everyone else, too, because now that the time has come come for him to use the imagined feelings for Carter to distract himself from the real feelings for Daniel, he just can't lie to himself anymore. The visit from Daniel in Abyss cinches it: suddenly, Daniel isn't REALLY here, which means Jack is safe to finally get comfortable with those unnerving, buried feelings. But on the other hand Daniel proves he will move heaven and earth to ALWAYS be here for Jack, and that reciprocation makes the feelings even stronger.

As for how this fits in with the shippiness of Season 7 and 8... they establish very subtly, early in Season 7 that both Jack and Daniel now get how much they mean to each other, so they don't need big displays or concrete evidence. I know some people read the scene in Carter's lab in Evolution as Jack reluctantly leaving her to go after Daniel, but I didn't. He seems very eager when Hammond gives him permission. And the events of Evolution and Grace have a subtle arc: Jack is starting to wonder how many more times he can almost lose one of these people without going nuts. *I* thought they were deliberately showing us that Jack is equally concerned about getting both teammates back safe, and very tired of the stress.

I think Jack does have a lot of genuine affection for Carter (just as he has for Teal'c, Hammond, Frasier, etc.) and should have told her a while back that he loves her, but is never going to be in love with her, so to speak. Unfortunately, Jack's a big chicken: instead of ripping off the band-aid, he just kinda hopes she'll move on all by herself (as evidenced by the scene in Affinity where she very guardedly tries to ask if there could EVER have been anything between them, and he conveniently misunderstands the question to be about his former family).

So while I still recoil at the shippy scenes - there is still a part of me that worries the writers have just gone off their heads - the more I force myself to watch, the more "evidence" I see that it's just one more effed-up dynamic among the group, and TPTB know that's all it can be. I would love to see O'Neill and Carter finally resolve the tension and develop an adult friendship. That was the potential we saw in "Solitudes" and it's a pity it got sidetracked into something else. But I do NOT think the "shippiness" we're seeing now is meant to be cute: it's meant to be uncomfortable, because developing it would be a bad idea. I do wish they'd had that adult friendship all along, and the occasional instances of sexual tension could have stayed amusing but meaningless, like that locker scene in Broca Divide that still cracks me up. But I think there's always going to be room for a take like mine, and that may keep the early episodes palatable. Heck, I can watch early Season 4 without vomiting now - there must be hope.

[Dani347]

This is my first post here, but I've been reading for a while. I have a tendency to come into new forums and have an inordinant amount to say, so my apologies if that gets anyone's "who does she think SHE is" feathers ruffled.

Well, hello!

It always seemed to me this is a show about two guys who weren't as interested in their wives as they were in their work.

Well, I'd have to disagree there. If you mean Jack and Daniel. Jack was already divorced, so Sara wasn't an issue. And, the main purpose of Daniel joining SG1 in the first place was to find Sha're, so I don't think he cared more about his job than her.

After all, why was there no chemistry between Carter and O'Neill, if they're supposedly destined for each other?

Hee! I see you're smart enough to know where to post comments about no chemistry.

I don't think it would be unfair to say it's a sort of platonic love, if we're all adult enough to handle that concept here.

I will refrain from going into a treatise on the Jack and Daniel relationship here, except to say I agree. Although, I do think the platonic love could describe all of them. And, should be kept that way.

Okay, snipping out huge chunk, because I don't know exactly what to leave in, and I don't want to quote the whole thing. But, if I'm reading it right, are you saying there's something beyond friendship and surrogate family between Jack and Daniel? Which would contradict the platonic love mentioned earlier. I don't think a transference of affection was necessary in the case fo someone loving two people in different ways (both platonically). Jack already had affection for Sam as a friend, part of his SG1 family, and a fellow military officer. I don't see why he would transfer feelings he has for Daniel, or why they would manifest themselves as shippy.

I know some people read the scene in Carter's lab in Evolution as Jack reluctantly leaving her to go after Daniel, but I didn't. He seems very eager when Hammond gives him permission. And the events of Evolution and Grace have a subtle arc: Jack is starting to wonder how many more times he can almost lose one of these people without going nuts. *I* thought they were deliberately showing us that Jack is equally concerned about getting both teammates back safe, and very tired of the stress.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

So while I still recoil at the shippy scenes - there is still a part of me that worries the writers have just gone off their heads - the more I force myself to watch, the more "evidence" I see that it's just one more effed-up dynamic among the group, and TPTB know that's all it can be.

I agree, and this is why I say tptb aren't doing the shippers any more favors than they're doing us. We (I'll presume to speak for all in this thread, but if it doesn't pertain to you, then I'm speaking for someone else) don't want to see the ship at all, but they bring us to the point where we have to see it, and it gets annoying. However, the point they go also teases the shippers, because it won't go as far as some shippers would like. I've described it this way before. TPTB are dangling the carrot and snatching it back. For those of us who can't stand the carrot (anti-shippers) we have to smell it and become naseous. And, for those who love it (J/S shippers) they have to smell it without ever getting the chance to take a bite. And, that's one of the biggest problems with even hinting at a ship that they won't let happen. But, I wouldn't put it past them to continue to drop annoying hints all the time.

I would love to see O'Neill and Carter finally resolve the tension and develop an adult friendship. That was the potential we saw in "Solitudes" and it's a pity it got sidetracked into something else. But I do NOT think the "shippiness" we're seeing now is meant to be cute: it's meant to be uncomfortable, because developing it would be a bad idea. I do wish they'd had that adult friendship all along, and the occasional instances of sexual tension could have stayed amusing but meaningless, like that locker scene in Broca Divide that still cracks me up. But I think there's always going to be room for a take like mine, and that may keep the early episodes palatable. Heck, I can watch early Season 4 without vomiting now - there must be hope.

I don't know about being meant to be uncomfortable. At least, not in any way to suggest that tptb think ship is bad. I think all the obstacles are because they have some romantic star crossed lovers agenda. The more obstacles, the more "romantic" it's supposed to be. But, I've always seen tptb as flaming shippers, anyway. And, I doubt they'd ever have Sam and Jack actually discuss the whole ship thing. That would require them resolving it one way or the other. And, then, how could they toy with the viewers? They'd lose their kicks.

[ShadowMaat]

That's a very interesting interpretation and well thought-out, too. Unfortunately, I don't buy it. I think Jack has grown less interested in all of the team since Daniel's "death" and I don't think there has been a significant change since Daniel returned. Isolated examples, yes, but the over-all feeling I get is still that he has better things to concern himself with than the well-being of his individual teammates, particularly Daniel. You use Evolution as an example of Jack's eagerness to help Daniel, but I saw it as a reluctance to leave, ostensibly because he was more interested in Carter than in Daniel. I still can't help feeling that all of the Sam/Jack stuff is kinda tagged on and that RDA, at least, is just going through the required motions whenever there is a "shippy" scene.

I also think you give the writers far more credit than they deserve when it comes to subtlety and the emotional development of the characters. Sorry, but I just don't think they're that clever. Not anymore, anyway.

[Beta Candy]

Hey, guys, thanks for the responses. I expect most people will disagree at least somewhat, and many will disagree completely, but I will try to clarify a couple of things I probably didn't say well the first time.

Well, I'd have to disagree there. If you mean Jack and Daniel. Jack was already divorced, so Sara wasn't an issue. And, the main purpose of Daniel joining SG1 in the first place was to find Sha're, so I don't think he cared more about his job than her.

True... I just see them both as married to their work, and their spouses important but secondary - which is common enough with people who have careers doing something they really love. It always seemed to me Sara was VERY open to the possibility of reconciliation in Cold Lazarus, and Jack is obviously still attached to her at least as late as Solitudes. And you can read the whole thing several ways, but it seems to me he doesn't even consider reconciliation, because he was already too committed to the SGC and didn't want to put her through playing second fiddle on his list of priorities.

For Daniel, well... it doesn't seem like he has to choose between marriage and work because he marries into the greatest archeological find he could hope for, LOL. But he can't just leave the gate buried, even though he knows it goes other places and what danger that entails (as evidenced by his stationing guards on the gate "36 hours a day"). In Meridian he comments that he couldn't just settle down and appreciate his life with her - couldn't leave the gate buried.

So that's the sort of thing I meant by saying their work is more important to them than their wives. You may well still disagree, but I just wanted to clarify, since I didn't really explain it the first time.

Hee! I see you're smart enough to know where to post comments about no chemistry.

Yeah, I honestly just don't see how anyone COULD see chemistry there. And I LOVE it when the two of them interact like officers - like Solitudes, or toward the end of Descent. But I still don't see "chemistry".

I will refrain from going into a treatise on the Jack and Daniel relationship here, except to say I agree. Although, I do think the platonic love could describe all of them. And, should be kept that way.

Agreed. It just seems to me the Jack-Daniel connection goes a lot deeper, at least for Jack, and is a little harder for him to figure out.

Okay, snipping out huge chunk, because I don't know exactly what to leave in, and I don't want to quote the whole thing. But, if I'm reading it right, are you saying there's something beyond friendship and surrogate family between Jack and Daniel? Which would contradict the platonic love mentioned earlier. I don't think a transference of affection was necessary in the case fo someone loving two people in different ways (both platonically). Jack already had affection for Sam as a friend, part of his SG1 family, and a fellow military officer. I don't see why he would transfer feelings he has for Daniel, or why they would manifest themselves as shippy.

No, I'm not saying there's anything remotely sexual between Jack and Daniel. Friendship and surrogate family is exactly right. I don't think he's transferring the EXACT feelings for Daniel onto her... more like he's transferring the LEVEL of affection for Daniel onto Sam, then it mixes with the basic physical attraction he's always felt toward her and morphs into... what we all wish it hadn't, LOL. Hope that makes more sense.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one

Yeah, I think most people read that Evolution scene like you do... I probably would have too, if it weren't for the little things I started noticing that prompted me to go back and look into some of this. And maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, but I do think they try to leave it so we can read it either way.

I agree, and this is why I say tptb aren't doing the shippers any more favors than they're doing us. We (I'll presume to speak for all in this thread, but if it doesn't pertain to you, then I'm speaking for someone else) don't want to see the ship at all, but they bring us to the point where we have to see it, and it gets annoying. However, the point they go also teases the shippers, because it won't go as far as some shippers would like. I've described it this way before. TPTB are dangling the carrot and snatching it back. For those of us who can't stand the carrot (anti-shippers) we have to smell it and become naseous. And, for those who love it (J/S shippers) they have to smell it without ever getting the chance to take a bite. And, that's one of the biggest problems with even hinting at a ship that they won't let happen. But, I wouldn't put it past them to continue to drop annoying hints all the time.

I wouldn't either, unfortunately. I agree with all you said here.

I don't know about being meant to be uncomfortable. At least, not in any way to suggest that tptb think ship is bad. I think all the obstacles are because they have some romantic star crossed lovers agenda. The more obstacles, the more "romantic" it's supposed to be. But, I've always seen tptb as flaming shippers, anyway. And, I doubt they'd ever have Sam and Jack actually discuss the whole ship thing. That would require them resolving it one way or the other. And, then, how could they toy with the viewers? They'd lose their kicks.

You may well be right. It just seems to me that there are a lot of hints that the writers get what I believe to be a fundamental truth: romantic passion just doesn't compare to the true passion of a life's work. Even if I'm right that the writers get it, that doesn't mean the rest of TPTB do.

That's a very interesting interpretation and well thought-out, too. Unfortunately, I don't buy it. I think Jack has grown less interested in all of the team since Daniel's "death" and I don't think there has been a significant change since Daniel returned. Isolated examples, yes, but the over-all feeling I get is still that he has better things to concern himself with than the well-being of his individual teammates, particularly Daniel. You use Evolution as an example of Jack's eagerness to help Daniel, but I saw it as a reluctance to leave, ostensibly because he was more interested in Carter than in Daniel. I still can't help feeling that all of the Sam/Jack stuff is kinda tagged on and that RDA, at least, is just going through the required motions whenever there is a "shippy" scene.

I also think you give the writers far more credit than they deserve when it comes to subtlety and the emotional development of the characters. Sorry, but I just don't think they're that clever. Not anymore, anyway.

Well, I can't argue with any of that. I think there's been some very bad writing, some very bad decisions... in fact MY take, if it's correct on any level, would probably be more to do with the actors' interpretations than the writers. I think on this show the actors have a fantastic grip on their characters, and that often shines through the bad writing and visuals-focused directing. Or sometimes the actors seem to protest by sort of half-playing a scene they don't really believe in - maybe this is what's happening when RDA goes "through the required motions" as you put it. I think I see what you mean about that. Amanda Tapping has expressed that she feels it would be "wrong" for the relationship to develop into anything but friendship, so hopefully they won't attempt to push it in that direction... as it would probably bring about some of the most half-baked acting in the history of the series, LOL!

What I perceive as a continuing bond between Jack and Daniel IS pretty subtle - I keep thinking maybe I'm just seeing what I want to see, but then I see another unexpected hint of it in a new episode, and I'm convinced again. But I would never try to "prove" my view to anyone else, as this show is obviously big on leaving room for multiple interpretations anyway.

I really enjoyed reading both your responses. Thanks for taking the time!

[the dancer of spaz]

POTENTIAL SPOILERS FOR "SACRIFICES" BELOW...
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I would have been fine with that scene, except for "the look" *start cueing violins of dread* Up to the look, I could see the same scene being played with Jack and Daniel, or Jack and Teal'c. But, I just know the look was supposed to be something vomit worthy like, "Our flaming passion is so strong, that the brief touch we shared just made our hearts beat in unison. But, we must resist, because we are star-crossed lovers, destined for a rocky road on the path of tru luv!!"
*Dani passes vomit buckets, and apologizes for conjuring up such an indecent image*

HA!

That was so hilarious, Dani. Sorry, guys: I know I'm a shipper and all, but this thread was on my mailing list, so I decided to see what people were saying. I almost peed my pants when I read this. Hehe. So funny!

OK, time to be bitter now. J/K

Just think of it as a FRIENDSHIP THANG and everything will be OK! I hope...

[Madeleine]

Beta Candy, that's all interesting stuff and some good ideas I'd not heard before, but I think I'll have to mull it over before I reply. It was quite a long post

I also think you give the writers far more credit than they deserve when it comes to subtlety and the emotional development of the characters.

But it's great fun to find layers or meanings in the show that are consistent and 'fit' with what we see onscreen, despite no one having written them in on purpose

[Beta Candy]

[QUOTE=Madeleine_W]Beta Candy, that's all interesting stuff and some good ideas I'd not heard before, but I think I'll have to mull it over before I reply. It was quite a long post [quote]
Well, I did say I tend to write inordinantly long posts, didn't I? LOL!

But it's great fun to find layers or meanings in the show that are consistent and 'fit' with what we see onscreen, despite no one having written them in on purpose

Hey, very well put. That's what I believe my take is. Consistent with canon, but only one of the many possible interpretations.

[jckfan55]

*Raises Glass* Oh wait, it's still morning. *Adds OJ to champagne* I'll drink to that!

I LOVE the friendship/family feel of SG-1. These people have been to hell together (literally). I think they all love each other. Period.

That's the way I've always seen it. For some reason, writers always seem to feel the need to insert some kind of romantic relationship between characters of the opposite sex. It is usually to the detriment of the show. Thank God for those Air Force regs.
I choose not to see "ship" unless the writers make it so blatant it is impossible to ignore. If only I could just put my fingers in my ears and sing "la,la, la" and make it go away...

[Beta Candy]

That's the way I've always seen it. For some reason, writers always seem to feel the need to insert some kind of romantic relationship between characters of the opposite sex. It is usually to the detriment of the show. Thank God for those Air Force regs.
I choose not to see "ship" unless the writers make it so blatant it is impossible to ignore. If only I could just put my fingers in my ears and sing "la,la, la" and make it go away...

That's the solution Jack gave Teal'c recently for dealing with parenting issues, so I think that's a very valid way to go.

[Uncle Dick]

That's the way I've always seen it. For some reason, writers always seem to feel the need to insert some kind of romantic relationship between characters of the opposite sex. It is usually to the detriment of the show. Thank God for those Air Force regs.

The Air Force regs don't do much for me. It just gives TPTB the chance to dance around the issue and increase the ship quotient in the form of dreams, alt. realities, cryptic language, etc.

If the series has degenerated to the point that the regs are the only thing keeping Jack from jumping Sam in the briefing room and having his way, I support them to the extent that they keep TPTB from indulging in their sick fantasies.

On the other hand, watching episodes like Grace where the writers can stick their tongues out and say "but it's all in her head so we're not crossing the line" makes me wish that the Air Force rules didn't exist so TPTB would come clean and tell us just which agenda they're going to go with instead of this lame shell game they've been playing for four years now.

I feel much the same way about Pete. His relationship with Carter is boring, pointless and a waste of screen time. But as long as it keeps an even more pointless and destructive Sam and Jack relationship from moving forward, I reluctantly support it.

If the creators want the show to be Shipgate, they should just come clean and stop hiding behind lame copouts that only alienate both sides of the ship debate. Then I can go back to watching good, early Stargate and all the shippers can have their show (which, if there is a merciful God somewhere up there, will promptly be put out of its misery).

[jckfan55]

The Air Force regs don't do much for me. It just gives TPTB the chance to dance around the issue and increase the ship quotient in the form of dreams, alt. realities, cryptic language, etc.

Ah, good point.

If the series has degenerated to the point that the regs are the only thing keeping Jack from jumping Sam in the briefing room and having his way, I support them to the extent that they keep TPTB from indulging in their sick fantasies.

On the other hand, watching episodes like Grace where the writers can stick their tongues out and say "but it's all in her head so we're not crossing the line" makes me wish that the Air Force rules didn't exist so TPTB would come clean and tell us just which agenda they're going to go with instead of this lame shell game they've been playing for four years now.

I guess my point about the regs was just that they inhibited the writers from going whole hog and making this the Sam & Jack show. Just give me interesting stories, adventures and characters we like.

[sueKay]

Hey there (don't run after me with a pitchfork for posting here).

I've noticed that a lot you are unhappy with the way that Sam is being portrayed, and I'd like to say that I agree.

Where's the Sam we all know and love? I miss the Sam from the early season so much. I am not happy with the way she is now being written.

AT said that she didn't want Sam to become *the girl* but that's precisely what she's become.

Just my opinion.