Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

My own series does it backwards, Female CO and Male Subordinate

You'd think it wouldn't work, but given the amount of build up i gave it i think i did nicely

I wouldn't mind any of the above mentioned IF THEY"D BEEN DONE PROPERLY.

Instead it's all done by "cosmic" powers of "twu wub".

*shudder* Even SGU has

Spoiler:

Scott and Chloe just jumping into each other's arms after ONE conversation, and there doesn't seem to be any idea of splitting them apart. Young/TJ was preestablished before the series so it sorta makes sense, but even so, it's another Jack/Sam thing with the huge angst and tension and "whaaa!" aspect to it.

Simply put, it feels contrived to the extreme. Nothing feels natural about any of the "official" relationships on SG as far as i'm concerned. That's why i love fanfic, when it does it right, it does it right.

The problem is when it doesn't... then you get something like this

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ffsrsbzns1.jpg


And just because i happen to have it.

Spoiler:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...al/SamShep.jpg

The bolded is the crux of the matter. Had Sam/Jack been treated as a normal, adult relationship, integral to the show and showing the characters acting in a normal, adult manner in coping with a difficult situation, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But, instead, it was a bolted on cliché, trundled out when TPTB felt they needed to elicit an emotional response but never allowed as part of the natural flow of the characters or show. So instead of realistic build up to a realistic conclusion, the relationship comes and goes, depending on the the writer and director, it has to be forced into storylines, irregardless of how appropriate it is and to the detriment of the real A story, irrelevant to SG1 as a whole.

You know, even if they do resurrect the dead horse of S/J in the last gasp of the last film, it will be a pyrrhic victory for S/J fans; we will never see Sam and Jack together as a couple week in week out on the show, SG1 is over, done, finished and Sam/Jack with it.

The films are a codicil, added on at the end, SG1 lasted 10 years. Canon is closed for those 10 years, nothing TPTB do now will affect it, most of the casual fans are gone, the non fannish viewers will watch the films if they are on TV but are unlikely to go out and buy them in any great numbers (we keep being told that the DVD market has collapsed, I don't know how true that is but SG1is not the cash cow going to rescue MGM, that's for sure). SG1 canon, at the end of the 10 years, had Sam commanding her own ship after her stint on Atlantis and Jack in Washington. At any given moment there are several hundred astronomical units between them. I've heard of long distance relationships, but that's pushing it beyond all reason. So the greatest love story ever known goes out with a whimper, not a bang, how apropos.

FF

[jdjunkie]

It's sad when your "official couple" has more chemistry with EVERYONE else than with each other.

Word. It's one of the top two reasons I will never buy Jack/Sam ... lack of on-screen chemistry and the power imbalance. The latter squicks me to the max. It's insurmountable. I fail to see how anyone can view them as fluffy, happy, love-bunnies. There's too much that's dark and difficult and irreconcilable about the dynamic. *shudders*

I'm actually at the point where I hope they *don't* make another SG1 movie. I fear much of what was said above.
And I don't really like that they've tried to bring SG1 characters into SGU. I pretend it doesn't exist.

I think I've reached that point too. Partly because if they do Go There with Jack/Sam it will leave a nasty taste in my mouth regarding both characters, and partly because the time has passed. I'm fed up with waiting and my enthusiasm has all but vanished. Not only is SGU the new shiny but, outside of the small number of fans who haunt the forums, a swathe of fans have moved on and no longer give a fig; I see it at LJ as well as here. We've all been told repeatedly about the dire state of the DVD market, and everyone knows the parlous state of MGM. I seriously doubt the film will ever get made. If it does, it won't be any time soon.

I'm not watching SGU anymore. Too derivative and trying too hard to be grown-up and, for me, it's just not working.

Canon is closed for those 10 years, nothing TPTB do now will affect it, most of the casual fans are gone, the non fannish viewers will watch the films if they are on TV but are unlikely to go out and buy them in any great numbers (we keep being told that the DVD market has collapsed, I don't know how true that is but SG1is not the cash cow going to rescue MGM, that's for sure). SG1 canon, at the end of the 10 years, had Sam commanding her own ship after her stint on Atlantis and Jack in Washington. FF

I'm happy with the ten years we've got. Truthfully, my canon closed after The Shroud, but that's another story ... I can happily live with the thought that SG-1 is still going out there, fighting the good fight and being teamy all over the galaxy. And given that I love my ten seasons, I don't really care too much if they end up marrying Sam and Jack off. I won't watch it, I won't buy the DVD and it won't impact on my decade's worth of closed canon.

And If they do marry them off, I'll have the divorce fic written and ready to post (the only time I will ever write that pairing) because that relationship is not viable in any way.

[jckfan55]

My own series does it backwards, Female CO and Male Subordinate

According to Kate Mulgrew they were going to have Janeway sleep with Chakotay early in the series but KM put her foot down on that being inappropriate for the Captain.

[Aragon101]

According to Kate Mulgrew they were going to have Janeway sleep with Chakotay early in the series but KM put her foot down on that being inappropriate for the Captain.

I heard about that too. Again, it seems pretty crazy to not have build up for something like that.

There was still that episode where they were infected with that thing and had CRAZY UST while trapped on the planet. THAT was a good build up, and in teh end i totally respect that they didn't do anything since that's what i got from her character.

and my series doesn't have the "frat regs" issue in the same sense, the characters are all rogue officers. It still pops up since the rules ARE there for a reason, but it's more of an annoying background noise than anything else. I don't ignore it, but i don't trot it out like some old war horse. It's mentioned when needed, and not emphasized on. Also there's no 'twu wuv' and in fact most of the relationships inmy series are darker and grittier without turning into soap opera (well... except for one but that's because the characters are naturally like that)

again, as long as it has build up and isn't some cosmic joining of two souls, i don't have any issues with it.

I wonder, what logical reasons are there for liking Jack/Sam? I'm not asking in a derogatory manner, i'm more just curious as to what it was apart from the "chemistry" the actors had and the actual way the story and scenes were filmed that gets people on the J/S bandwagon.

[Frostfox]

Word. It's one of the top two reasons I will never buy Jack/Sam ... lack of on-screen chemistry and the power imbalance. The latter squicks me to the max. It's insurmountable. I fail to see how anyone can view them as fluffy, happy, love-bunnies. There's too much that's dark and difficult and irreconcilable about the dynamic. *shudders*

There are a myriad of words I'd use to describe the execrable mess - 'fluffy, happy, love-bunnies' are not the words I was thinking of, not unless those 'love-bunnies' have myxomatosis.

As I said, there is a good, dramatic story of the potential relationship between a scarred, battle weary CO and his brilliant, beautiful scientist cum 2IC. But it is a serious, weighty story, not suited to a TV action adventure show, certainly not suitable for SG1.
And what they served up for Jack/Sam trivialized the issue and swept any serious connotations and realistic characterisation under the carpet in favour of a juvenile, adolescent crush with no more depth or drama than a teen soap.

I think I've reached that point too. Partly because if they do Go There with Jack/Sam it will leave a nasty taste in my mouth regarding both characters, and partly because the time has passed. I'm fed up with waiting and my enthusiasm has all but vanished. Not only is SGU the new shiny but, outside of the small number of fans who haunt the forums, a swathe of fans have moved on and no longer give a fig; I see it at LJ as well as here. We've all been told repeatedly about the dire state of the DVD market, and everyone knows the parlous state of MGM. I seriously doubt the film will ever get made. If it does, it won't be any time soon.

I'm not watching SGU anymore. Too derivative and trying too hard to be grown-up and, for me, it's just not working.

All fandoms change when the shows finish. SG1 will be no different, fans fall away, lose interest, move onto other fresh pastures. It's natural and normal. Anyone thinking that SG1 fandom will somehow, miraculously, remain is deluding themselves and are not very observant as it's happening already.
In 10 years time, when fans are discussing SG1, it will be in passing; it's not made a big enough impression on the genre, not been ground breaking or individual enough and even the one claim to fame; the longest running US TVSF record looks as though it will be over taken by Smallville.
And Sam/Jack will be long, long forgotten.

I'm happy with the ten years we've got. Truthfully, my canon closed after The Shroud, but that's another story ... I can happily live with the thought that SG-1 is still going out there, fighting the good fight and being teamy all over the galaxy. And given that I love my ten seasons, I don't really care too much if they end up marrying Sam and Jack off. I won't watch it, I won't buy the DVD and it won't impact on my decade's worth of closed canon.

And If they do marry them off, I'll have the divorce fic written and ready to post (the only time I will ever write that pairing) because that relationship is not viable in any way.

If they marry them off, I will write a divorce fic especially for them, and I've never written a fic in this fandom.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I wonder, what logical reasons are there for liking Jack/Sam? I'm not asking in a derogatory manner, i'm more just curious as to what it was apart from the "chemistry" the actors had and the actual way the story and scenes were filmed that gets people on the J/S bandwagon.

I guess Jack/Sam fans have a thousand different reasons for liking their ship. Different aspects appeal to different folks. I'm sure some like the "they can't be together but are soulmates" aspect (as they see it), while others simply like the idea of two characters they love being happy together. Who knows? It's indefinable. Why do I adore Jack/Daniel, like Janet/Jack, have a soft spot for Daniel/Sabrina Gosling? A host of reasons. All of them mine and probably not the same as anyone else's. *shrugs* as MS once said, "Whatever floats your boat". Just don't insist that I'm OMG WRONG for not seeing what you see. Generic you, btw!

If they marry them off, I will write a divorce fic especially for them, and I've never written a fic in this fandom.

FF

In our corner of fandom, FF, Destina wrote a wonderful fic that, in part, dealt with the disintegration of Jack and Sam's marriage. As ever with her stuff, it was beautifully observed and written and heartbreaking. This paragraph summed it up, I think.

"I knew," she [Sam] said. "I knew it wouldn't work, that it wasn't right. I always knew. But I did love him. I do." She separates herself from the comfort Daniel offers, pulling away, stretching their ties even farther. With one corner of the green dish towel, she wipes her face, eradicating her tears, but her nose is still red. "I think...I had myself convinced it was right, even when part of me was screaming that it was a mistake. It was easy to talk myself into being with him."

[Frostfox]

I guess Jack/Sam fans have a thousand different reasons for liking their ship. Different aspects appeal to different folks. I'm sure some like the "they can't be together but are soulmates" aspect (as they see it), while others simply like the idea of two characters they love being happy together. Who knows? It's indefinable. Why do I adore Jack/Daniel, like Janet/Jack, have a soft spot for Daniel/Sabrina Gosling? A host of reasons. All of them mine and probably not the same as anyone else's. *shrugs* as MS once said, "Whatever floats your boat". Just don't insist that I'm OMG WRONG for not seeing what you see. Generic you, btw!

There will be as many reasons as there are fans. All fanac is to be encouraged, 99% of it wont be of interest to me but it's all creative, it's all good.
The only time I have issue with any fan, of any type, is when they want to impose their reading of SG1 on to everyone else. All fans are created equal, no ones opinion is any more valid than any other. Just because a relationship is canon, it is no more important to fans than non-canon relationships. The whole point of fandom is to take the text given to us by TPTB and the actors and to do fanac with it. If you choose to base that fanac on a canon relationship, fair enough. If you indulge in fanac for a non-canon relationship, that's just a cool, just as valid, you are just as much a SG1 fan as those working with canon as their starting point.

Do I think, personally, that fans who focus on one character or one relationship to the exclusion of the rest of SG1 are missing out on something wonderful and unique to the show? Of course I do. Does my opinion matter to them? Of course it doesn't. They are entitled to enjoy it any way they want. As am I.

In our corner of fandom, FF, Destina wrote a wonderful fic that, in part, dealt with the disintegration of Jack and Sam's marriage. As ever with her stuff, it was beautifully observed and written and heartbreaking. This paragraph summed it up, I think.

"I knew," she [Sam] said. "I knew it wouldn't work, that it wasn't right. I always knew. But I did love him. I do." She separates herself from the comfort Daniel offers, pulling away, stretching their ties even farther. With one corner of the green dish towel, she wipes her face, eradicating her tears, but her nose is still red. "I think...I had myself convinced it was right, even when part of me was screaming that it was a mistake. It was easy to talk myself into being with him."

I don't know if I've read that, I love Destina's work. Could you send me the link?

FF

[poundpuppy29]

I am glad I am not the only one in dreading the third movie if it ever gets made I agree with you and let's add my own Jack has no business being the lead anymore and I am mad because Vala won't be in it so I would rather them leave it as it is too.

[jckfan55]

^I love Jack and the original team. I'd rather remember them how they were than some lame attempt at a reunion many years later.

[Frostfox]

I am glad I am not the only one in dreading the third movie if it ever gets made I agree with you and let's add my own Jack has no business being the lead anymore and I am mad because Vala won't be in it so I would rather them leave it as it is too.

^I love Jack and the original team. I'd rather remember them how they were than some lame attempt at a reunion many years later.

Personally, my favourite seasons are the earlier ones, with The Big Four, but I don't think you should ignore, write out or retcon SG1 so that seasons 9 & 10 don't exist, SG1 shouldn't be locked in a timewarp, forever trapped in a limbo of 'the golden years'. That would stifle the show and be, frankly ridiculous and very bad for the franchise. Everything changes, grows, matures, so should the show.

FF

[jckfan55]

Personally, my favourite seasons are the earlier ones, with The Big Four, but I don't think you should ignore, write out or retcon SG1 so that seasons 9 & 10 don't exist, SG1 shouldn't be locked in a timewarp, forever trapped in a limbo of 'the golden years'. That would stifle the show and be, frankly ridiculous and very bad for the franchise. Everything changes, grows, matures, so should the show.

FF

do you mean "you" as in in my memory or as in the show writing?

[Frostfox]

do you mean "you" as in in my memory or as in the show writing?

Sorry, I was thinking of TPTB, not the fans, we are lucky, we can pick and choose our canon, TPTB, however, should stick to the show bible, which, for good or ill, includes seasons 9 & 10, or we end up with Bobby-in-the-shower type silliness.

There are several episodes (cough) Family Ties (cough) or scenes (cough) beaming an office building into space (cough) I would be oh so happy to strike from canon. But TPTB made their bed, they should have the confidence in their creative output to lie in it.

FF

[jdjunkie]

FF ... I've lost the direct link to Destina's fic. It's title is Descant and it's tagged under her fic at her LJ. Sorry that's a bit vague. It's definitely worth a read.

It seems everyone's favourite PTB (not) is back to his non-answering, stringing-along ways.

From JM's blog: Majorsal writes: “the writers have made huge and (wonderfully to me) in-your-face ships for SGU, but with sam/jack, we still don’t know if they’re together… will this change in the future?”

Answer: Ideally, yes.

I think the writers have done a bang-up job of allowing us all to take what we want from the Jack/Sam situation. Shippers can believe they're together and we can believe they're not but are pursuing happy, fulfilling lives.

Ideally, we'll never find out.

[discodiva]

Ah yes, Mr "Sound Mysterious To Keep 'em Guessing Because I Actually Have No Clues Myself" Mallozzi......and you won't believe how long I struggled to make that clean and PG for GW....


Enough already with the guesswork, enough already with the silly veiled hints, enough already with the desperate pleas for ship (ANY ships)...let us all enjoy our pairings in the fandom how WE want to and without antagonising or bothering those of any other....leave me in my happy world of [insert favoured pairing here] and shut up about it!....*snerk*....


Deeds xx

[jckfan55]

I have nothing against shippers who want to believe in their pairing, but I also don't understand the need for "confirmation." Believe whatever you want. I choose to put my fingers in my ears and hum loudly.