Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jckfan55]

But butbutbut... that would mean.. Sam/Jack isn't a OTP! [/snark]

Seriously, they had a great story there especially since Sara sort of found out that Jack was into some heavy stuff, it would have been awesome to see Jack have to struggle to regain his life, and Sam could easily have been a friend and support for him. That's what friends/teammates do right?

True. One thing about Sara is that though she was a bit freaked out, she didn't panic in that episode. And remember how she told the nurse bandaging her hand to go ahead and evacuate with everyone, that she was ok? A good match for Jack. And she could call him on his crap in a way Sam never could in the chain of command.


I somehow missed what OTP means. Oh the Pain? One true pair?

I'm reminded of the scene where Sam's complaining about life, and Daniel can't tell if she's talking about someone else or herself. It's like even Daniel's going "WTF? Where did THAT come from?"

Though I did like how AT played it at the end of the scene when she says "we're talking about Teal'c's friend, right?" like she didn't realize how she sounded.

[Frostfox]

Exactly true. Now, if Jack was being pulled away by the Pentagon to do some useless thing he might be ticked at having to leave the team in the lurch--even though he knows they're competent he wouldn't want to stick them with a dangerous mission without being there to help---but that wasn't this.

How could we "fix" D&C while keeping the za'tarc story? what would be the red herring that makes them think Sam and/or Jack are za'tarcs?

Yes, I think Aragon has the best idea. Slot it after Beneath the Surface. All that memory stamping would play havoc with the mind and lead to all sorts of emotional confusion.

I remember being completely blindsided by D&C. I actually said "Where the heck did that come from?" after the cringe-worthy za'tarc test. Jack had been shown many times to care about all his "kids" far more than he should. By rights, the team should have broken up when they all became over-invested.

When I saw D&C as a casual fan, it didn't make much of an impression at all. I remember thinking it wasn't a very good episode and Martuf biting it.
When I watched it again as a fan, I still thought it a rather silly affair, J/S just compounding the stupidity. The only bit I like is the corking Jack/Daniel banter.

But no, it had to be hammered home that his feeeelings for Sam were speshul and above all others, when every indication before that showed that they weren't. She was a valued, respected colleague whom I'm quite sure he looked on with affection.

Not super special wub.

I can see lust from Jack. Sam is an attractive woman, he's not blind or oblivious to her charms.
I see infatuation and hero worship from Sam. Jack is an attractive man, she's not blind either.
It's taking it beyond that animal attraction I have problems with. TPTB never convinced me of any realistic emotion between them beyond the teenage melodrama of wanting something they couldn't have. Real love needs more than for the object of desire to be unobtainable. Didn't Amanda say in a recent interview that Jack was important because it was a long term thing? Damning with faint praise if that's the best reason she can think of them to be together.

I maintain to this day that he's still in love with Sara. The woman he crawled across a desert for. Makes much more sense than Sam and Sir, that's for sure.

I never really think about Sara much, too long ago in canon terms and she had, what? 10 minutes screen time in 10+ years? But I maintain that Jack showed more emotion and passion in those 10 minutes than in 10+ years of uncomfortable looks at Sam.
But he does keep Sara's photo along with Charlie's. He could just keep Charlie's.

But butbutbut... that would mean.. Sam/Jack isn't a OTP! [/snark]

Seriously, they had a great story there especially since Sara sort of found out that Jack was into some heavy stuff, it would have been awesome to see Jack have to struggle to regain his life, and Sam could easily have been a friend and support for him. That's what friends/teammates do right?

I have no issues with a main/main lead relationship, but if it takes over the show, then it's a problem Especially when you have only a few leads anyway like in SG1 and it's highly noticeable that the focus is there.

Take DS9 or B5 for instance, both had comparitively large casts, but you never really got the feeling they were focusing on one or the other unless the episode was clearly just about them. And even then, you usually got progression with the other characters as well. With Sam/Jack, you clearly see the show became about THEM and not in an individual sense either. It's about their relationship or rather lack there of.

I'm reminded of the scene where Sam's complaining about life, and Daniel can't tell if she's talking about someone else or herself. It's like even Daniel's going "WTF? Where did THAT come from?"

I'd forgotten that little gem. Not Sam's finest hour and another case of TPTB making her look pathetic to try to forward their tragic little attempt at romance.

True. One thing about Sara is that though she was a bit freaked out, she didn't panic in that episode. And remember how she told the nurse bandaging her hand to go ahead and evacuate with everyone, that she was ok? A good match for Jack. And she could call him on his crap in a way Sam never could in the chain of command.


I somehow missed what OTP means. Oh the Pain? One true pair?

Though I did like how AT played it at the end of the scene when she says "we're talking about Teal'c's friend, right?" like she didn't realize how she sounded.

Oh, many a true word is spoken in jest. From now one, when ever I see OTP used in conjunction with Sam/Jack, I will be thinking 'Oh, The Pain'! Thank you.

FF

[jdjunkie]

If i ever go to a Con with BW and JM, i'll directly ask "What were your inspirations for the Sam/Jack relationship?"

Damn, now i'm curious.

There was inspiration involved? Lack of inspriation, as far as I can see. Leading man and leading woman have a thing, or don't have a thing, then in the end may have a thing but we don't really know. Compelling, isn't it?

I have to say I'd pay money to hear BW and JM's answer though, if I could hear it over Aragon's guffawing, that is.

I recently rewatched Cold Lazarus and yes, they were good together. I was rooting for them to reconcile.

Me too. I thought they were a terrific match. I believed in that pairing, mainly because they were written in an adult fashion.

I somehow missed what OTP means. Oh the Pain? One true pair?

Henceforth, that is what this particular pairing shall be referred to as. Brilliant!

[Frostfox]

There was inspiration involved? Lack of inspriation, as far as I can see. Leading man and leading woman have a thing, or don't have a thing, then in the end may have a thing but we don't really know. Compelling, isn't it?

I have to say I'd pay money to hear BW and JM's answer though, if I could hear it over Aragon's guffawing, that is.

Said it before, had it been better written...
I don't have any problems with well conceived, well written relationships which are seamlessly infused and integral to the show. They aren't why I watch but they can add to a show's appeal and add an extra dimension to characters. I have problems with relationships which feel 'bolted on', or which detract from the show.
And they don't come much more bolted or as detracting than Sam and Jack.
Plus we had the added problem of being dull, dull, dull. A cardinal sin in an action/adventure show.

Me too. I thought they were a terrific match. I believed in that pairing, mainly because they were written in an adult fashion.

From a few brief scenes, RDA sold me Sara/Jack. Why didn't he manage the same in 10+ years of Sam/Jack? Could it be because RDA wasn't sold on the relationship either?

Henceforth, that is what this particular pairing shall be referred to as. Brilliant!

Oh, yeah! Oh, The Pain.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

When I saw D&C as a casual fan, it didn't make much of an impression at all. I remember thinking it wasn't a very good episode and Martuf biting it.
When I watched it again as a fan, I still thought it a rather silly affair, J/S just compounding the stupidity. The only bit I like is the corking Jack/Daniel banter.
I can see lust from Jack. Sam is an attractive woman, he's not blind or oblivious to her charms.
I see infatuation and hero worship from Sam. Jack is an attractive man, she's not blind either.
It's taking it beyond that animal attraction I have problems with. TPTB never convinced me of any realistic emotion between them beyond the teenage melodrama of wanting something they couldn't have. Real love needs more than for the object of desire to be unobtainable. Didn't Amanda say in a recent interview that Jack was important because it was a long term thing? Damning with faint praise if that's the best reason she can think of them to be together.

I never really think about Sara much, too long ago in canon terms and she had, what? 10 minutes screen time in 10+ years? But I maintain that Jack showed more emotion and passion in those 10 minutes than in 10+ years of uncomfortable looks at Sam.
But he does keep Sara's photo along with Charlie's. He could just keep Charlie's.

I'd forgotten that little gem. Not Sam's finest hour and another case of TPTB making her look pathetic to try to forward their tragic little attempt at romance.

Oh, many a true word is spoken in jest. From now one, when ever I see OTP used in conjunction with Sam/Jack, I will be thinking 'Oh, The Pain'! Thank you.

FF

the Bold part ITA 100% and it was main reason I was a shipper but then later it was the reason I stopped shipping them because there wasn't anything beyond that really WoO and Grace proved that for me they have been through alot together but that is as a team not just the 2 of them I see a friendship nothing more
I know some of you dislike Vala and D&V but J&S compared to D&V is laughable to me because there was no passion or emotion between J&S like there is between D&V but everybody has their own opinion please don't start throwing things OTP Oh The Pain is too too funny lol

If you compare J&S to other Ships that had emotion & passion like BSG's Helo & Sharon or Kara & Sam or Kara & Lee or Balter & 6 or B5's Sheridan & Delenn or Marcus & Susan or Farscape's John & Aeryn it is laughable IMVHO

[Aragon101]

the Bold part ITA 100% and it was main reason I was a shipper but then later it was the reason I stopped shipping them because there wasn't anything beyond that really WoO and Grace proved that for me they have been through alot together but that is as a team not just the 2 of them I see a friendship nothing more

Just one of the reasons i made you that Malcolm and Sam Smiley

Actually i was alot like you, when i first started watching, i liked Sam/Jack because it was friendly and the teasing was funny. But by the time it becomes "OMG! FEEEELINGS" (i.e. season 4) i really just wanted them either to get together, or become adults and move on.

I watched the show on and off when i was a teen, i liked it but it was just another sci-fi show. TNG remains my first and only twu wub

But i got the DVDs around Season 7, and it was like a hot sweaty affair. I still loved TNG, but SG1 gave me what TNG couldn't at times. And just like an affair, there are issues that are just impossible to work around, namely the horrible track record of potential romances in the series.

As i grew more mature (i.e. starting dating seriously) i realized what a load of crap Sam/Jack really is beyond friendship. Attraction is nature, but love is nurture. Destined in the stars is frankly bull plop and i detest that idea now in both real life and fiction.

SG1 continues to be a favorite of mine because it's just damned entertaining, but just like SGU, i find myself skipping scenes on my DVDs because they're just too painful to watch.

I remember one episode of TNG, forget the name but it had Picard and one of his subordinates having a relationship and in one hour, it sold the pair in so many more layers and richness and just plain goodness that i was saddened at the end when they decide to break up. And even though it was a "romance" episode, it STILL had plenty of sci-fi adventure and Picard's friendship with others (Beverly included)

I think that's what TPTB want to be able to do, but i find they do it with such a heavy hand that it's like trying to force a circle into a square. Sure it'll fit, but there will be holes a plenty.

[Frostfox]

the Bold part ITA 100% and it was main reason I was a shipper but then later it was the reason I stopped shipping them because there wasn't anything beyond that really WoO and Grace proved that for me they have been through alot together but that is as a team not just the 2 of them I see a friendship nothing more
I know some of you dislike Vala and D&V but J&S compared to D&V is laughable to me because there was no passion or emotion between J&S like there is between D&V but everybody has their own opinion please don't start throwing things OTP Oh The Pain is too too funny lol

If you compare J&S to other Ships that had emotion & passion like BSG's Helo & Sharon or Kara & Sam or Kara & Lee or Balter & 6 or B5's Sheridan & Delenn or Marcus & Susan or Farscape's John & Aeryn it is laughable IMVHO

Won't throw things at all! If Daniel/Vala makes you happy, go for it.
The writing of it sometimes frustrated me, I just don't think TPTB write romance very well, but I could see more passion (whether it was anger or frustration or affection) between the characters than the limp, insipid moping of Sam/Jack.
TVSF is never very convincing on romance, but comparing J/S with other TV couples does indeed bring home how contrived and lifeless it was, particularly the fire of John/Aryn or a mature, adult relationship such as Odo/Kira or Adama/Roslin, that's when the cracks really start to show and it becomes obvious how contrived and silly Sam/Jack is.

Just one of the reasons i made you that Malcolm and Sam Smiley

Actually i was alot like you, when i first started watching, i liked Sam/Jack because it was friendly and the teasing was funny. But by the time it becomes "OMG! FEEEELINGS" (i.e. season 4) i really just wanted them either to get together, or become adults and move on.

I watched the show on and off when i was a teen, i liked it but it was just another sci-fi show. TNG remains my first and only twu wub

But i got the DVDs around Season 7, and it was like a hot sweaty affair. I still loved TNG, but SG1 gave me what TNG couldn't at times. And just like an affair, there are issues that are just impossible to work around, namely the horrible track record of potential romances in the series.

As i grew more mature (i.e. starting dating seriously) i realized what a load of crap Sam/Jack really is beyond friendship. Attraction is nature, but love is nurture. Destined in the stars is frankly bull plop and i detest that idea now in both real life and fiction.

SG1 continues to be a favorite of mine because it's just damned entertaining, but just like SGU, i find myself skipping scenes on my DVDs because they're just too painful to watch.

I remember one episode of TNG, forget the name but it had Picard and one of his subordinates having a relationship and in one hour, it sold the pair in so many more layers and richness and just plain goodness that i was saddened at the end when they decide to break up. And even though it was a "romance" episode, it STILL had plenty of sci-fi adventure and Picard's friendship with others (Beverly included)

I think that's what TPTB want to be able to do, but i find they do it with such a heavy hand that it's like trying to force a circle into a square. Sure it'll fit, but there will be holes a plenty.

It's particularly frustrating that, in later seasons, when it's become obvious to all that Sam/Jack doesn't work, that they kept forcing the issue, kept trying to hammer the square peg into the round hole, as though they could make what was an intrinsically flawed and dull relationship into an interesting and compelling one just by reiterating it over and over again.
No, Jack/Sam doesn't work, you can only make it even vaguely plausable by hanging a big lantern on it, by making it melodrama and propping it up with visual and audio cues, it doesn't stand on it's own as believable or healthy or normal or real. And no amount of forcing it front and centre will make it work any better.
If a vase has an intrinsic flaw in it, it won't hold water, no matter how many lilies you plonk in the vase.

I'm not around much this week, currently in Portmeirion, with 14 friends, eating too much, drinking too much, playing RPG's and walking on beaches/mountains.

Spoiler:

This is the view from my bed!

This is the view from my balcony.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I know some of you dislike Vala and D&V but J&S compared to D&V is laughable to me because there was no passion or emotion between J&S like there is between D&V but everybody has their own opinion please don't start throwing things OTP Oh The Pain is too too funny lol

If you compare J&S to other Ships that had emotion & passion like BSG's Helo & Sharon or Kara & Sam or Kara & Lee or Balter & 6 or B5's Sheridan & Delenn or Marcus & Susan or Farscape's John & Aeryn it is laughable IMVHO

I had issues with the way Daniel/Vala was written sometimes, but the one thing that pairing did have, as opposed to Jack/Sam, was chemistry. It came off the screen in waves. That's partly down to the acting talent of Michael and Claudia, who I enjoy together or apart. They are those rare actors who have chemistry with whoever they act with. They are that good. Oh The Pain (tm) Daniel/Vala were not. They talked in whole sentences, laughed, bantered, argued, showed frustration. All those things well-adjusted adults do.

If a vase has an intrinsic flaw in it, it won't hold water, no matter how many lilies you plonk in the vase. FF

I love it when you go all Oma on us.

[Frostfox]

I had issues with the way Daniel/Vala was written sometimes, but the one thing that pairing did have, as opposed to Jack/Sam, was chemistry. It came off the screen in waves. That's partly down to the acting talent of Michael and Claudia, who I enjoy together or apart. They are those rare actors who have chemistry with whoever they act with. They are that good. Oh The Pain (tm) Daniel/Vala were not. They talked in whole sentences, laughed, bantered, argued, showed frustration. All those things well-adjusted adults do.

RDA and Amanda have chemistry, oodles of it.
With each other, with other actors and characters, and, importantly, with Sam and Jack when it's not being forced into some bizarre attempt at a highly unconvincing romance.
Soon as 'feeling feeeeeeeeelings' raises it's ugly head again, Sam is reduced to the doe eyed, stammering school ma'am and Jack gets near terminal indigestion. All the realistic chemistry drains away, taking all the life from the show with it, leaving them acting like lovelorn teenagers who need a damn good talking to.
And I just can't find that to be convincing characterisation of a couple who have been shown in other relationships to be completely normal, mature adults. The regression is stupid, unbelievable, character damaging and a net loss to SG1.

FF

[jckfan55]

^indeed. they messed with the chemistry that was there--mentor/mentee; team; fun teasing moments...

Jack is too honorable to pursue a subordinate. And Jack has always been a bit closed off emotionally. YOu're not going to easily and convincingly be able to change that--especially in the format of SG1. It's not supposed to be a soap opera and the format doesn't allow for a lot of deep character development. Some--and sometimes I wanted more--but again, what show are you trying to do? I always think of SG1 at its best as sort of an adventure/drama. It has the fighting & outsmarting the bad guys, but also a story that is interesting and/or makes you think a little bit and with characters you care about.

Sam is no femme fatale, but she's hardly someone I see reduced to stammering. I really think Sam might have had a hero-worshippy crush on Jack, but she would have seen it would never work and would have moved on.

That was the only good thing about Pete imho. We saw Sam behaving like an adult in that first 1/2 (and I don't mean the going to bed with him part .) She was interacting with him as a regular person.

[Frostfox]

^indeed. they messed with the chemistry that was there--mentor/mentee; team; fun teasing moments...

And, if it had made SG1 a better show, it would just about be forgivable, but it didn't. No scenes with the overblown melodrama of teenage angst actually added to SG1, they only broke the flow of story and made both characters look foolish, self centred and, honestly, rather pathetic.

Jack is too honorable to pursue a subordinate. And Jack has always been a bit closed off emotionally. YOu're not going to easily and convincingly be able to change that--especially in the format of SG1. It's not supposed to be a soap opera and the format doesn't allow for a lot of deep character development. Some--and sometimes I wanted more--but again, what show are you trying to do? I always think of SG1 at its best as sort of an adventure/drama. It has the fighting & outsmarting the bad guys, but also a story that is interesting and/or makes you think a little bit and with characters you care about.

Adventure/drama is what they were good at, it's what gave them 10 years of SG1. The characters we cared about made SG1 special. Sam/Jack is the antithesis of that; it damages the characters and devalues the team as a whole.
Jack would never be so cavalier with a subordinate's emotional attachment and his response to that, he would have taken control of the situation when it first became apparent there was a situation. As would Sam. And they would have reached an adult, mature, in character solution to the issue. The wouldn't have continued with juvenile, adolescent pining, they are perfectly capable of reaching a reasonable resolution.
Unfortunately for Jack and Sam, TPTB weren't.

Sam is no femme fatale, but she's hardly someone I see reduced to stammering. I really think Sam might have had a hero-worshippy crush on Jack, but she would have seen it would never work and would have moved on.

That was the only good thing about Pete imho. We saw Sam behaving like an adult in that first 1/2 (and I don't mean the going to bed with him part .) She was interacting with him as a regular person.

They explicitly showed Sam in romantic situations and she handles them in a perfectly normal, mature, believable manner. Except with Jack. Now, either we are to take that Jack is so very, very special (the old 'man above all men against whom no man will ever measure up and who reduces Sam to a bundle of teenage hormones' bilge) or that their love is very special, above and beyond any other love ever (the 'written in the stars' rubbish). The former is just so offensive to Sam, Jack and every other character on the show that it is contemptible, the latter is in the realm of trashy romance novels and insipid daytime soaps and devalues both characters by making the laughable attempt at romance more important than Jack, Sam, Daniel, Teal'c, the SGC and every other aspect of the show. Take your pick, they both reduce Sam/Jack to laughing stocks and have no place in the show and some of the TPTB show a bizarre lack of comprehension of this simple fact.

FF

[jdjunkie]

RDA and Amanda have chemistry, oodles of it.FF

Yes. They do. Which makes me realise how spectacularly badly the ship was written that Jack/Sam had no chemistry whatsoever. Romantic chemistry, I mean. The mentor/team moments I actually enjoyed for the most part, before they were ship-tainted.

It's not supposed to be a soap opera and the format doesn't allow for a lot of deep character development. Some--and sometimes I wanted more--but again, what show are you trying to do? I always think of SG1 at its best as sort of an adventure/drama. It has the fighting & outsmarting the bad guys, but also a story that is interesting and/or makes you think a little bit and with characters you care about.

There were times I longed for some character development. I always wanted to see more of how Daniel and Teal'c dealt with Teal'c's choosing of Sha're. How did Daniel get to his "he's a different man" realisation in Cor-Ai? I desperately wanted to know more about Jack after Abyss. I was never satisfied with his light-hearted, glib reaction to Ba'al thereafter. He had to have been carrying baggage. We never saw it. TPTB dropped the ball in following through so many times. But I suppose they were walking a fine line in balancing the sci-fi and the drama and spolsions! etc.

I would have traded all the simpering, stitled, embarrassing "Sir, about what I was trying to say ..." "I know" moments for a few more minutes of character development. What a waste of valuable air time.

[Frostfox]

Yes. They do. Which makes me realise how spectacularly badly the ship was written that Jack/Sam had no chemistry whatsoever. Romantic chemistry, I mean. The mentor/team moments I actually enjoyed for the most part, before they were ship-tainted.

You said it.
In later season, even good teamy moments were tainted by the odoriferous pachyderm in the room. And it's droppings.
And the galling thing? For no good reason; had they kept the status quo and the writing constant with early season characterisation, the fans of Sam/Jack would have still read it as a relationship. And the rest of fandom would have been spared the sorry mess.

There were times I longed for some character development. I always wanted to see more of how Daniel and Teal'c dealt with Teal'c's choosing of Sha're. How did Daniel get to his "he's a different man" realisation in Cor-Ai? I desperately wanted to know more about Jack after Abyss. I was never satisfied with his light-hearted, glib reaction to Ba'al thereafter. He had to have been carrying baggage. We never saw it. TPTB dropped the ball in following through so many times. But I suppose they were walking a fine line in balancing the sci-fi and the drama and spolsions! etc.

I would have traded all the simpering, stitled, embarrassing "Sir, about what I was trying to say ..." "I know" moments for a few more minutes of character development. What a waste of valuable air time.

We know character moments were sacrificed all the time, for all the characters, in favour of action and explosions.
Except, of course, Sam and Sir making goo goo eyes at each other or trying to have stilted, juvenile conversations, because that was much more important than genuine character exposition and interaction.
Obviously much more important than those other two characters, (the big black guy and the one who dies a lot, remember them?) They showed up in the last scene in Möbius and Threads after our beloved lovebirds had a Special Moment together, they are such gooseberries, they should know by now that they are not as Important as Sam and Sir.
Because Sam/Jack are Destined to Be and wuv each other very much. And some of TPTB will do their best to make sure we never forget it. Do we have a barf smilie?

FF

[jckfan55]

You said it.


We know character moments were sacrificed all the time, for all the characters, in favour of action and explosions.
Except, of course, Sam and Sir making goo goo eyes at each other or trying to have stilted, juvenile conversations, because that was much more important than genuine character exposition and interaction.

Yes. and that's the thing that galls me. Either you have time for it or not. TPTB wrote friendship well--they should have stuck to it. I sometimes wonder which of the writers gave us the best friendship stuff and if it was the same one(s) that stunk at romance, or if someone overruled those who objected to the bilge (as you say).

[Frostfox]

Yes. and that's the thing that galls me. Either you have time for it or not. TPTB wrote friendship well--they should have stuck to it. I sometimes wonder which of the writers gave us the best friendship stuff and if it was the same one(s) that stunk at romance, or if someone overruled those who objected to the bilge (as you say).

Don't know, never wanted to get close enough to the insipid S/J mess to analyse the pathetic display that deeply.
It is clear that some of TPTB are more fond of it than others, and some of them better at writing or directing without sinking into cloying saccherin attempts at sweetness.

FF