Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

That's the most perfect description of my feelings about Sam that I've ever heard. I like the idea of her being a strong, independent military woman and scientist. I just didn't care for the way they tried to illustrate that in the show. There was something about the writing... I just couldn't find anything compelling about her character.

So ends my random post for today.

I think that sums up my feelings completely. I think they struggled to find Carter's voice, especially in the early days. Then, just as she was finding her place on the team, and her niche in the dynamics, they introduced the "now you see it, now you don't" romance and her character became a badly-written dichotomy between military officer/scientist and part-time love interest. Confusion reigned in the writing, and in my understanding of her.

I wanted to like her a lot more than I did. I just never found her compelling or engaging, which is heresy in some parts I know.

The ship did her no favours, and it didn't do Jack any either. I am an equal opportunity anti-shipper in that respect.

[Frostfox]

A little late, but... CONGRATS!

On another note, I looked at your pictures and had to think a moment to figure out why I knew the name Paul Cornell... then I realized: DOCTOR WHO! I love the three episodes of DW that he wrote.

Good writer and a nice chap, very talented in lots of areas, we had him as a guest at our con last year, he came straight from the Dr Who wrap party where he had been dancing with Bernard Cribbins all night! He did the con on about 3 hours sleep.
Very fannish, more likely to be found propping up a bar than with the pros (rather like PTerry and Neil Gaiman in the early days - actually, to be fair, before his illness, PTerry was still most likely to be propping up a bar).

Watch out! The Grammar Police has spies everywhere.

Oh noes!

I don't usually look for romance in my TVSF either (actually, I don't think I look for romance in any of my TV shows. ). I realized that the only SFTV pairings that I actually subscribe to happen to be both canon in their respective shows and relationships where I can see some significant chemistry. Notably however, one of those relationships is basically relegated to backstory for the entire series, two end tragically, and only one actually culminates in a real relationship (albeit an extremely angsty one). I'm starting to think that this may reflect some cynicism on my part.



Would have greened you for this if I hadn't just greened you for the "Team, Team, Team" post.



That's the most perfect description of my feelings about Sam that I've ever heard. I like the idea of her being a strong, independent military woman and scientist. I just didn't care for the way they tried to illustrate that in the show. There was something about the writing... I just couldn't find anything compelling about her character.

So ends my random post for today.

To be fair to Sam and TPTB of SG1, this is true of all the female characters I really like (thinking Susan Ivanova, Ororo and Kira Nerys here)

I think that sums up my feelings completely. I think they struggled to find Carter's voice, especially in the early days. Then, just as she was finding her place on the team, and her niche in the dynamics, they introduced the "now you see it, now you don't" romance and her character became a badly-written dichotomy between military officer/scientist and part-time love interest. Confusion reigned in the writing, and in my understanding of her.

I wanted to like her a lot more than I did. I just never found her compelling or engaging, which is heresy in some parts I know.

The ship did her no favours, and it didn't do Jack any either. I am an equal opportunity anti-shipper in that respect.

This, so much this.
I still hold that Sam is one of my favourites on the show (I generally like Daniel more, but there have been times when Sam's appeal won my heart) despite the flaws in writing her. It's down to AT's acting, I know this, AT sold Sam to me, despite TPTB's best efforts to the contrary.

FF

[jckfan55]

I wanted to like her a lot more than I did. I just never found her compelling or engaging, which is heresy in some parts I know.

Heretic! I think we all have our preferences, which is fine.

I still hold that Sam is one of my favourites on the show (I generally like Daniel more, but there have been times when Sam's appeal won my heart) despite the flaws in writing her. It's down to AT's acting, I know this, AT sold Sam to me, despite TPTB's best efforts to the contrary.

FF

Yes, I think there were certainly times where played differently, Sam would have been annoying or dull, but I think AT brought some real humanity to the role.

[Frostfox]

Yes, I think there were certainly times where played differently, Sam would have been annoying or dull, but I think AT brought some real humanity to the role.

Agreed, she sold Sam to me. As the guys sold their characters too.
But I get that liking AT is not an universal constant, people are no less of a SG1 fan if they don't think AT or Sam are the bees knees.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Heretic! I think we all have our preferences, which is fine.

I've been on pitchfork and flaming torches watch for HOURS now.

I'm first and foremost a team fan. Both team incarnations, although my heart belongs to the original team. I am a huge Daniel fan (which isn't always easy round some parts) and I refuse to apologise for that. No-one should have to justify why they like a particular character more than others. He drew me in and he kept me here (minus a few eps that we shall not speak of ) I love kick-ass, loyal, commander Jack to tiny silver-haired pieces (not dumb!Jack) and I could hug the stuffing out of Teal'c. I adore Hammond and want Janet as my New Best Friend (she's not dead, she just isn't). I want to mother Cassie and teach Vala the finer points of ladies' etiquette.

I love my show for all those characters and lots more, and for lots of other reasons, which is why the ship still grates on me. It took away from my overall enjoyment of something that was otherwise fab.

*shakes fist at annoying ship*

[Frostfox]

I've been on pitchfork and flaming torches watch for HOURS now.

I'm first and foremost a team fan. Both team incarnations, although my heart belongs to the original team. I am a huge Daniel fan (which isn't always easy round some parts) and I refuse to apologise for that. No-one should have to justify why they like a particular character more than others. He drew me in and he kept me here (minus a few eps that we shall not speak of ) I love kick-ass, loyal, commander Jack to tiny silver-haired pieces (not dumb!Jack) and I could hug the stuffing out of Teal'c. I adore Hammond and want Janet as my New Best Friend (she's not dead, she just isn't). I want to mother Cassie and teach Vala the finer points of ladies' etiquette.

I love my show for all those characters and lots more, and for lots of other reasons, which is why the ship still grates on me. It took away from my overall enjoyment of something that was otherwise fab.

*shakes fist at annoying ship*

I never think it's compulsory to adore all the characters or actors on any show. And, until the advent of the interwebs, it was irrelevant anyway, no one knew or cared. I do think the internet and our interaction with it is changing how we watch TV.

I'm old enough to remember fan clubs and paper fanzines/letterzines. To remember how hard it was to find someone else to talk to about a show you liked.

I remember sitting at the train station for nearly an hour, every night, fangirling over Blakes7 with a collage friend. And 'phoning each other for an hour plus after every new episode (she liked Avon, I liked Villa). I remember her sighing down the 'phone "He smiled this week."

I remember when photocopying 'zines was prohibitively expensive (and sometimes done at work!) - no DTP or home printers. So you passed copies around a mailing list. The hassle of getting your contribution copied for an APA. I was in an X Men one in the early 1980's.

I remember when adult art had to be photocopied on the sly. 'Zines you couldn't take to a copy shop or could only take to a sympathetic one.
I used to draw a fillo, photocopy and send to the fan ed. Or, if too risqué, posted the original, hoping the Royal Mail wouldn't fold the 'Do Not Bend' envelope, and that the editor would return the original. Now I draw the pr0n, scan the pr0n and email the zipped file to the recipient. So much easier.

I even remember duplicators and typing onto stencils or drawing directly onto them. Lettraset, if you wanted something to look professional.

It's so much easier these days.

Which is a bit of a mixed blessing; feeding fans sense of entitlement: in short, you have none. Enabling greater access between fans and TPTB and the actors, there's interaction we never even dreamed off when I was a kid (Twitter, blogs, fansites, gossip sites).
And it's changing all the time. BBS like Gateworld will look as outdated in 10 years as Usenet does now.

FF

[Aragon101]

I never think it's compulsory to adore all the characters or actors on any show. And, until the advent of the interwebs, it was irrelevant anyway, no one knew or cared. I do think the internet and our interaction with it is changing how we watch TV.

I'm old enough to remember fan clubs and paper fanzines/letterzines. To remember how hard it was to find someone else to talk to about a show you liked.

I remember sitting at the train station for nearly an hour, every night, fangirling over Blakes7 with a collage friend. And 'phoning each other for an hour plus after every new episode (she liked Avon, I liked Villa). I remember her sighing down the 'phone "He smiled this week."

I remember when photocopying 'zines was prohibitively expensive (and sometimes done at work!) - no DTP or home printers. So you passed copies around a mailing list. The hassle of getting your contribution copied for an APA. I was in an X Men one in the early 1980's.

I remember when adult art had to be photocopied on the sly. 'Zines you couldn't take to a copy shop or could only take to a sympathetic one.
I used to draw a fillo, photocopy and send to the fan ed. Or, if too risqué, posted the original, hoping the Royal Mail wouldn't fold the 'Do Not Bend' envelope, and that the editor would return the original. Now I draw the pr0n, scan the pr0n and email the zipped file to the recipient. So much easier.

I even remember duplicators and typing onto stencils or drawing directly onto them. Lettraset, if you wanted something to look professional.

It's so much easier these days.

Which is a bit of a mixed blessing; feeding fans sense of entitlement: in short, you have none. Enabling greater access between fans and TPTB and the actors, there's interaction we never even dreamed off when I was a kid (Twitter, blogs, fansites, gossip sites).
And it's changing all the time. BBS like Gateworld will look as outdated in 10 years as Usenet does now.

FF

Re: Entitlement

I cannot agree with you more. Up until that communication was possible, the only "communication" between fans and TPTB were likely conventions or as you've mentioend, the assorted more difficult ways to get connected.

with anyone able to become a big name fan by writing fanfic, all of a sudden people start looking at TPTB with less respect for the wrong reasons.

I detest what they did with Jack/Sam, btu on an overall, i still highly enjoy SG1 above most other shows. I actually liked that they tried(keyword) to give Sam a life beyond the SGC and "Wubbing" Sir. I detest taht they did it so haphazardly just to paint Jack as some kind of hero.

I write my own Stargate Fanfic series because while i know i'll never get what i actually wish for on SG1, i love the characters and situatiosna dn overall sci-fi story more than i do whether character A is boinking Character B. It can be a nice addition, but it's not teh main story.

For all the problems Entitlement brings about, just look at Fishing and Carson. Nuff said.

[Frostfox]

Re: Entitlement

I cannot agree with you more. Up until that communication was possible, the only "communication" between fans and TPTB were likely conventions or as you've mentioend, the assorted more difficult ways to get connected.

with anyone able to become a big name fan by writing fanfic, all of a sudden people start looking at TPTB with less respect for the wrong reasons.

I detest what they did with Jack/Sam, btu on an overall, i still highly enjoy SG1 above most other shows. I actually liked that they tried(keyword) to give Sam a life beyond the SGC and "Wubbing" Sir. I detest taht they did it so haphazardly just to paint Jack as some kind of hero.

I write my own Stargate Fanfic series because while i know i'll never get what i actually wish for on SG1, i love the characters and situatiosna dn overall sci-fi story more than i do whether character A is boinking Character B. It can be a nice addition, but it's not teh main story.

For all the problems Entitlement brings about, just look at Fishing and Carson. Nuff said.

Giving the characters relationships and lives beyond the show is perfectly fine; in 10+ years they are bound to have some. But it should never overshadow the premise of SG1, it should add colour, not drain the energy from the show. When your B (or even C) plotline, which face it, all the relationships should be on SG1, is treated to the same level of importance or more screen time than the A plot, something is wrong.
I'm thinking of Affinity here, or Threads. Treating the revolving doors of Sam's romantic fumblings with the same importance as saving the planet/universe/whatever (and making the character into a mockery while doing it) is ludicrous and sells AT and Sam short into the bargain. Much more prevalent in later seasons (and continued with D/V after TPTB lost interest in S/J) you will note, unbalancing episodes and all totally unnecessary.

Fishing and Carson? I'm sorry, I don't watch Atlantis, I don't understand.

FF

[Aragon101]

Giving the characters relationships and lives beyond the show is perfectly fine; in 10+ years they are bound to have some. But it should never overshadow the premise of SG1, it should add colour, not drain the energy from the show. When your B (or even C) plotline, which face it, all the relationships should be on SG1, is treated to the same level of importance or more screen time than the A plot, something is wrong.
I'm thinking of Affinity here, or Threads. Treating the revolving doors of Sam's romantic fumblings with the same importance as saving the planet/universe/whatever (and making the character into a mockery while doing it) is ludicrous and sells AT and Sam short into the bargain. Much more prevalent in later seasons (and continued with D/V after TPTB lost interest in S/J) you will note, unbalancing episodes and all totally unnecessary.

Fishing and Carson? I'm sorry, I don't watch Atlantis, I don't understand.

FF

Everybody wanted Jack and Sam to go "Fishing" so that's what they got. I've heard about RDA saying that many times at Cons.

And Carson, well, they kill him off in late season 3 only to bring him back in late season 4 after a fan uproar yet it didn't really add anything to season 5 beyond giving McKay his best friend back. (and they pretty much ignore the whole "Clone" angle as far as how Carson feels and such.)

[jckfan55]

The thing about fishing is I think in S5? The Curse, Sam *didn't want to go fishing*--she wanted to work on her motorcycle as it turns out. No awkward exchange or anything. A highlight of Sam being Sam completely unconnected to 'ship.

[Aragon101]

The thing about fishing is I think in S5? The Curse, Sam *didn't want to go fishing*--she wanted to work on her motorcycle as it turns out. No awkward exchange or anything. A highlight of Sam being Sam completely unconnected to 'ship.

Which i actually liked, but then it was twisted int othis grea tbig "Aww Jack and Sam Fishing means the universe will be okay."

Its like if they didn't get together to go fishing, the fate of the space time continuum is at stake! (Hmmm Plot bunny)

[Frostfox]

The thing about fishing is I think in S5? The Curse, Sam *didn't want to go fishing*--she wanted to work on her motorcycle as it turns out. No awkward exchange or anything. A highlight of Sam being Sam completely unconnected to 'ship.

Which is why, as a code for deep meaningful passion, it's pretty pathetic really.
It can mean fishing, wink, wink, nudge, nudge or fishing, depending on who Jack is asking fishing, sometimes it means fishing to Sam, sometimes just fishing. Yawn, wake me up when we get back to the plot, I grew out of silly double-entendre a couple of decades ago.
And the reason for the inconsistency is that different directors/writers have different agendas, some see Sam/Jack as a good thing, others ignore it. The relationship seems disorientated and jerky exactly because it is. As Sky put it, 'too many different Muses'; no cohesive overall plan for the relationship.

Which i actually liked, but then it was twisted int othis grea tbig "Aww Jack and Sam Fishing means the universe will be okay."

Its like if they didn't get together to go fishing, the fate of the space time continuum is at stake! (Hmmm Plot bunny)

Uh oh, a fic writer with a plot bunny. Run away! Run away!

FF

[jdjunkie]

Which is why, as a code for deep meaningful passion, it's pretty pathetic really.
It can mean fishing, wink, wink, nudge, nudge or fishing, depending on who Jack is asking fishing, sometimes it means fishing to Sam, sometimes just fishing. FF

The fishing thing always makes me snort. I mean, Jack asked Daniel to go fishing and Teal'c actually WENT fishing (even though he didn't enjoy it much). So, you know, hardly unique to the One True Pairing ... Still, Sam obviously loved the time the team went fishing at the cabin, because she used it as her password. Yay for team days out!

[Frostfox]

The fishing thing always makes me snort. I mean, Jack asked Daniel to go fishing and Teal'c actually WENT fishing (even though he didn't enjoy it much). So, you know, hardly unique to the One True Pairing ... Still, Sam obviously loved the time the team went fishing at the cabin, because she used it as her password. Yay for team days out!

Snortle. You, jd, are a Bad Woman (tm).

FF

[jckfan55]

I was ok with the fishing password, as it could be seen as just an Sg1 joke. Though it would have been more fun if it was something like Schrodinger. ... or Narim4evr.