Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jckfan55]

Jack and Janet wouldn't have as much of that pesky superior/subordinate ick going on since as CMO she's sort of a power unto herself despite her rank.

[Frostfox]

Janet, IMHO, had a lot more spunk and fire to her personality than Sam ever did. There was also respect there between the two characters, and I didn't see that in the Jack/Sam interactions. It was always fun to see Janet and Jack on screen together!

Also, I admired Janet. She didn't take any of Jack's BS.

I immortalized her in two of my fics...she's drinking mint juleps and making a killing on the Jack/Daniel bets.

Janet certainly had fire.
I must admit to liking her interactions with Sam too, though I know you aren't a Sam fan, I thought they came across as very natural with each other.
And Janet was certainly shown as standing up to Jack in a way Sam never was allowed to.

Jack and Janet wouldn't have as much of that pesky superior/subordinate ick going on since as CMO she's sort of a power unto herself despite her rank.

Yeah, the power dynamic seemed much more even and healthy than Sam and Jack where it was always an issue.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Janet certainly had fire.
I must admit to liking her interactions with Sam too, though I know you aren't a Sam fan, I thought they came across as very natural with each other.
And Janet was certainly shown as standing up to Jack in a way Sam never was allowed to.



Yeah, the power dynamic seemed much more even and healthy than Sam and Jack where it was always an issue.

FF

Sam and Janet always seemed to have a nice, relaxed friendship thing going. It seemed much more natural than the Sam and Vala friendship, which always felt contrived to me. It came across a bit like Jack/Sam (no, bear with me here) as in "Look, here's a relationship, we're showing you it, now buy it."

I didn't. In either case.

Time and again I come back to the power imbalance between Jack and Sam. It was, and never could be, a relationship of equals. It squicks me out totally. And I can't understand why some people can just handwave that. The ramifications are huge and unhappy. It would never, in a million years, work out happily.

[Aragon101]

Sam and Janet always seemed to have a nice, relaxed friendship thing going. It seemed much more natural than the Sam and Vala friendship, which always felt contrived to me. It came across a bit like Jack/Sam (no, bear with me here) as in "Look, here's a relationship, we're showing you it, now buy it."

I didn't. In either case.

Time and again I come back to the power imbalance between Jack and Sam. It was, and never could be, a relationship of equals. It squicks me out totally. And I can't understand why some people can just handwave that. The ramifications are huge and unhappy. It would never, in a million years, work out happily.

Sadly, most military Sci-fi ends up like that for some reason. Just look at Mass Effect.

Although Mass Effect at least showed yo uthe characters having *gasp* real conversations and bonding! ZOMG.

Sorry, been replaying Mass Effect so i have a good profile for Mass Effect 2 and the little plot bynny has been nibbling away at hte back of my eyes... I smell a one-shot coming up! (go angst!)

[jckfan55]

Sam and Janet always seemed to have a nice, relaxed friendship thing going. It seemed much more natural than the Sam and Vala friendship, which always felt contrived to me. It came across a bit like Jack/Sam (no, bear with me here) as in "Look, here's a relationship, we're showing you it, now buy it."

I didn't. In either case.

That horrible returning from shopping! scene? Bleh.

And here's a brain scrubber: I was glancing quickly at my subscriptions and thought I saw "Sam O'Neill/..."
shudders

[Aragon101]

That horrible returning from shopping! scene? Bleh.

And here's a brain scrubber: I was glancing quickly at my subscriptions and thought I saw "Sam O'Neill/..."
shudders

I always saw Vala as not being used to having friends, so since Sam's teh only other "Girl" on the team, she follows her around like a puppy. I think Sam felt a little sorry for her and befriended her because of that, but it was nowhere near as awesome as the original team dynamics. It was never really 'equal" or "natural" because you just can't see them enjoying the same things. (Ohh who ELSE does that sounds like?)

And Janet... sigh... what an awesome character. Little else needs to be said for the good Doctor

[jckfan55]

I always saw Vala as not being used to having friends, so since Sam's teh only other "Girl" on the team, she follows her around like a puppy. I think Sam felt a little sorry for her and befriended her because of that, but it was nowhere near as awesome as the original team dynamics. It was never really 'equal" or "natural" because you just can't see them enjoying the same things. (Ohh who ELSE does that sounds like?)

I can see that based on what we saw about the 2 characters independently. But we rarely saw them have any but the most superficial interactions. The two cases that help me buy them as becoming friends are in the Quest where Vala pats Sam on the back & in the one where Sam goes to the alternate reality & Vala gives her a hug when she gets back. And both of those were added by the actresses. We were "told" rather than "shown" most of the time.
And to get back on topic--as I think FF has said, Jack "looking like he swallowed a wasp" in "significant" moments doesn't tell me of J/S lurve either.

[Aragon101]

I can see that based on what we saw about the 2 characters independently. But we rarely saw them have any but the most superficial interactions. The two cases that help me buy them as becoming friends are in the Quest where Vala pats Sam on the back & in the one where Sam goes to the alternate reality & Vala gives her a hug when she gets back. And both of those were added by the actresses. We were "told" rather than "shown" most of the time.
And to get back on topic--as I think FF has said, Jack "looking like he swallowed a wasp" in "significant" moments doesn't tell me of J/S lurve either.

Given that most Vala Scenes were either "Muscles" or "Sexy Daniel" scenes as well, i'm not surprised. It's sad to think that the two biggest scenes were the actresses themselves and not the writing.

Like... don't these people get PAID to write convincing stories? That's the saddest bit. We've got so assume so much because they only have 44 minutes that it all feels very forced and instant. We don't see any build up. If they wanted to push certain things, then they needed to invest the time to do it properly, not the bugs bunny watch the first step mack of LuLuness!

[Frostfox]

Sam and Janet always seemed to have a nice, relaxed friendship thing going. It seemed much more natural than the Sam and Vala friendship, which always felt contrived to me. It came across a bit like Jack/Sam (no, bear with me here) as in "Look, here's a relationship, we're showing you it, now buy it."

I didn't. In either case.

I totally bought Sam and Janet's friendship. Huge kudos to the writers and both actors, they sold it all the way down the line.
Sam and Vala, not so much, like you, I felt it too contrived and forced. Given that AT was still playing Sam and CB is another good actress, I can only thing that it was the writing which failed them. Two charismatic actress' on screen together, it should have been a gift.

Time and again I come back to the power imbalance between Jack and Sam. It was, and never could be, a relationship of equals. It squicks me out totally. And I can't understand why some people can just handwave that. The ramifications are huge and unhappy. It would never, in a million years, work out happily.

It's a biggie, isn't it. And once you see the elephant in the room, once you realise it's there, you can't not see it, it's too intrusive and wrong.

That horrible returning from shopping! scene? Bleh.

And here's a brain scrubber: I was glancing quickly at my subscriptions and thought I saw "Sam O'Neill/..."
shudders

Eww, don't say things like that, I've just eaten!

I always saw Vala as not being used to having friends, so since Sam's teh only other "Girl" on the team, she follows her around like a puppy. I think Sam felt a little sorry for her and befriended her because of that, but it was nowhere near as awesome as the original team dynamics. It was never really 'equal" or "natural" because you just can't see them enjoying the same things. (Ohh who ELSE does that sounds like?)

And Janet... sigh... what an awesome character. Little else needs to be said for the good Doctor

I get the bolded, I think that's a valid point and a very reasonable explanation of the characters and motivations, but, as jckfan55 says, it was done clumsily and too much 'tell' and not enough 'show'. Strangely enough, that same issue rears its head with Sam and Jack too.

I can see that based on what we saw about the 2 characters independently. But we rarely saw them have any but the most superficial interactions. The two cases that help me buy them as becoming friends are in the Quest where Vala pats Sam on the back & in the one where Sam goes to the alternate reality & Vala gives her a hug when she gets back. And both of those were added by the actresses. We were "told" rather than "shown" most of the time.

Exactly, I think we are on the same page here, jckfan55. We had two seasons to show a growing relationship between the two women, I just didn't buy it. But then, they had 10+ seasons to sell Sam/Jack to me and failed miserably with that too.

And to get back on topic--as I think FF has said, Jack "looking like he swallowed a wasp" in "significant" moments doesn't tell me of J/S lurve either.

Fans of S/J tell me that Jack wasn't allowed to look happy, relaxed and pleased to be be the her company of Sam, which does begger the question, why bother with showing a relationship where they aren't allowed to be happy, relaxed or pleased to be around each other?

Given that most Vala Scenes were either "Muscles" or "Sexy Daniel" scenes as well, i'm not surprised. It's sad to think that the two biggest scenes were the actresses themselves and not the writing.

Like... don't these people get PAID to write convincing stories? That's the saddest bit. We've got so assume so much because they only have 44 minutes that it all feels very forced and instant. We don't see any build up. If they wanted to push certain things, then they needed to invest the time to do it properly, not the bugs bunny watch the first step mack of LuLuness!

They can write convincing stories, they did write convincing stories, they just couldn't write romance and relationships convincingly.

FF

[poundpuppy29]

ditto about Jack & Janet having more chemistry than Jack & Sam ITA 100% Sam had more chemistry with Agent Barret. Janet did have more fire then Sam and Jack needs someone with fire. I don't dislike Sam but I don't love her either I think I like the idea of Sam more than what was written for her.

OT but I liked the Vala Sam friendship I saw it in the Quest and on I even like the shopping scene liked seeing that side of Sam she was happy for once to have someone to be girly with.

[Frostfox]

ditto about Jack & Janet having more chemistry than Jack & Sam ITA 100% Sam had more chemistry with Agent Barret. Janet did have more fire then Sam and Jack needs someone with fire. I don't dislike Sam but I don't love her either I think I like the idea of Sam more than what was written for her.

OT but I liked the Vala Sam friendship I saw it in the Quest and on I even like the shopping scene liked seeing that side of Sam she was happy for once to have someone to be girly with.

I totally agree, Sam could have been better written. I think I like her because I like Amanda. I think she's a very good actress, empathic and charming. I think she brought more empathy and charm to Sam than TPTB did.

I know it's a fannish habit of praising the actors for every nuance of good characterisation and TPTB for every bad bit of characterisation, which isn't really fair of us, but in this case, at least for me, it's true.
I certainly like Jack, Daniel and Teal'c more than I like RDA, MS and CJ, but I like AT more than Sam. Just the way I am, no right or wrong about it.

Sam and Vala, a new female friend for Sam, after the loss of Janet, was important and strong female relationships are so often ignored in TV. I know I mention it a lot, but do Google 'Bechdel Test' - women are so very, very rarely shown talking to each other unless it is about a man, a relationship or work. Think about your life and what your talk to you girlfriends about, we are so much more than our man or our relationship or our work.
I think I felt that we could have had a better relationship in the two years we had, between Vala and Sam. I'm not dismissing what we got, I just wanted a bit more.

FF

[jdjunkie]

And here's a brain scrubber: I was glancing quickly at my subscriptions and thought I saw "Sam O'Neill/..."
shudders

I'll set up a counselling session in the corner straight away ...

And Janet... sigh... what an awesome character. Little else needs to be said for the good Doctor

Awesome and then some.

And to get back on topic--as I think FF has said, Jack "looking like he swallowed a wasp" in "significant" moments doesn't tell me of J/S lurve either.

Swallowed a wasp, and badly in need of prune juice and the nearest exit.

Fans of S/J tell me that Jack wasn't allowed to look happy, relaxed and pleased to be be the her company of Sam, which does begger the question, why bother with showing a relationship where they aren't allowed to be happy, relaxed or pleased to be around each other?FF

Oh please ... not allowed??? Then why bother? A perfect recipe for happily ever after wasn't it?

ditto about Jack & Janet having more chemistry than Jack & Sam ITA 100% Sam had more chemistry with Agent Barret. Janet did have more fire then Sam and Jack needs someone with fire. I don't dislike Sam but I don't love her either I think I like the idea of Sam more than what was written for her.

I thought Sam and Barrett were an interesting pairing. Pity they didn't explore that. But then they couldn't, because pairing Sam with anyone other than Jack showed that pairing up for the dull, chemistry-less thing it was.

And a very big YES to the bolded.

[Frostfox]

Oh please ... not allowed??? Then why bother? A perfect recipe for happily ever after wasn't it?



I thought Sam and Barrett were an interesting pairing. Pity they didn't explore that. But then they couldn't, because pairing Sam with anyone other than Jack showed that pairing up for the dull, chemistry-less thing it was.

And a very big YES to the bolded.

'Why bother' is an important point.
In real life one can get oneself into complicated relationships which defy convention and seem unsuitable and impenetrable to outsiders. Sometimes, particularly sophisticated books or films or TV can address such interesting issues.

SG1 isn't such a show, nor is it claiming to be. It does what it sets out to do, it's an entertaining, engaging TVSF show with some very talented actors and PTB working on it.

It isn't high art or iconoclastic drama, it doesn't pretend to be. So relationships won't be either. To make Sam/Jack work with canon as shown on SG1, there has to be too much convoluted, coded subtext, something which is great in a realistic portrayal of a relationship but which falls completely flat and feels utterly out of place in SG1.
Or just isn't there. Dedicated fans of the pairing have to do convoluted, hand-waving, plot gymnastics to make S/J work (such as the coded 'fishing' which can mean sex or can mean, er, 'fishing'). The rest of SG1 is just not that deep and subtle, there's no way that just one aspect of the show (S/J) can be a marvel of attenuated storytelling, worthy of a Pulitzer, when the rest of the show is a solid SF action/adventure.
Of course, if you are a huge fan of the relationship, go ahead, don't let me stop you. If doing the mental gymnastics to make S/J work is fun for you, have at it.
Just don't be surprised if other fans don't see the greatest love story ever committed to the TV screen as anything but melodrama and cliché and rather pathetic.

FF

[Aragon101]

Given the route taken with SGU, i think TPTB have always wanted to do the pulitzer prize winning stuff instead of the fun entertaining SF stuff. S/J is done and there's nothing else to do about it except give them levitating kids, but at the same time, while their ability to entertain and come up with cool plots and premises is high, they're ability to sell a relationship with any kind of angst is quite frankly atrocious because they can't seem to avoid the melodrama.

It's a lack of subtlety and letting hte viewer draw the conclusion. The back and forth tug of war between whether they're a ship or just friends gets very very annoying because it'll be like a whack a mole! Pops up out of NOWHERE.

[Khentkawes]

Oh, double post, but I had to let you know, I'm a Hugo nominee again this year. In the immortal words of Jack O'Neill, "This should not get old." and nor does it.
Much celebrating was done (including rather a lot of Welsh whisky!)

A little late, but... CONGRATS!

On another note, I looked at your pictures and had to think a moment to figure out why I knew the name Paul Cornell... then I realized: DOCTOR WHO! I love the three episodes of DW that he wrote.

Hello. Targust. You made it then. Care to share your top three Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam reasons with the class? Points will be given for originality and correct use of punctuation.

Watch out! The Grammar Police has spies everywhere.

I don't look for romance in my TVSF, and it would have led to medical complications, but I think I could have believed in Jack and Janet. Certainly more believable than Sam and Jack, but isn't every proto-relationship on SG1 more realistic than Sam/Sir?

I don't usually look for romance in my TVSF either (actually, I don't think I look for romance in any of my TV shows. ). I realized that the only SFTV pairings that I actually subscribe to happen to be both canon in their respective shows and relationships where I can see some significant chemistry. Notably however, one of those relationships is basically relegated to backstory for the entire series, two end tragically, and only one actually culminates in a real relationship (albeit an extremely angsty one). I'm starting to think that this may reflect some cynicism on my part.

Jack and Janet wouldn't have as much of that pesky superior/subordinate ick going on since as CMO she's sort of a power unto herself despite her rank.

Would have greened you for this if I hadn't just greened you for the "Team, Team, Team" post.

I don't dislike Sam but I don't love her either I think I like the idea of Sam more than what was written for her.

That's the most perfect description of my feelings about Sam that I've ever heard. I like the idea of her being a strong, independent military woman and scientist. I just didn't care for the way they tried to illustrate that in the show. There was something about the writing... I just couldn't find anything compelling about her character.

So ends my random post for today.