Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Aragon101]

So, that would cover most of the dedicated fan base then?
Most casual fans, I suspect, don't care much either way.

FF

True that it is only the stronger fans that care one way or the other, but it wouldn't be an issue if it was just something that was noticed by hte fans (such as Jack/Daniel) which wasn't being pushed "canonically".

SG1 reminds me of a Cop Show, episode after episode, with maybe a little bit of a serial arc between episodes.

I think it would have been better if they treated it like CSI, with several arcs for each character that are relatively planned. But that's just it. SG1 was basically a fly by the seat of the pants show. Nothing was planned, and what little was didn't exactly feel right because it was all jumps and starts (look at Jonas for instance)

It's a matter of balance IMO. Jack/Sam was not balanced at all. If you really think about it, there's maybe 10 episodes total that actually show some 'growth' between the pair, and some of those are just alternate realities making the ship seem "destined".

Unfortunately i think this has led to a new problem. They've taken these criticisms on slow or no character build up or development and gone to the other extreme in SGU.

To this day, i can't believe any romantic scenes in Stargate that weren't "tragic" in the sense that it ends up going nowhere. Yet, it's those tragic romances where nothing ends up coming of it that are the most believable. Or when they just focus on friendship without BLATANT UST, it actually comes out much much stronger. (Spacemonkey anyone?)

I also think TPTB either didn't think things through clearly, or they sabotaged potential storylines and character dynamics in favor of their OTP. The reason i like Sam/Sheppard so much is that they're actually very similar, and i see a sort of equality between them despite their differences. They've had many similar experiences and we all know Sheppard loves scientists. There's a deleted scene where Sam and Shep talk on the balcony and Shep invites her for a beer to celebrate Ronon's return. It's purely friendly, but they share a funny yet deeper moment of Sam settling into Atlantis, and that's it. no romance whatsoever. Those are the scenes i love to be mixed in with the action.

Yet, at the same time, i can believe Sam/John more than Sam/Jack given the fact that Sam/John have had *Gasp!* actual conversations! You see them working together and even joking around amicably without a constipated tension between them. This is one of hte reasons there are Sam/Cam shippers IMO as well since Sam/Cam never had that underlying tension that just ruins those friendship moments.

It's just like real life, If you have the subtlety of a sledgehammer, success will elude you

[Frostfox]

True that it is only the stronger fans that care one way or the other, but it wouldn't be an issue if it was just something that was noticed by hte fans (such as Jack/Daniel) which wasn't being pushed "canonically".

SG1 reminds me of a Cop Show, episode after episode, with maybe a little bit of a serial arc between episodes.

That's what I meant when I said that the format of SG1 was quite old fashioned, more serialised, arc based SF was becoming in favour, due to the success' of B5 and DS9 with the format. SG1 harked back to earlier shows such as TNG with some arc, some character growth, but essentially, keeping the status quo and the honking great reset button at the end of each episode, putting the characters back where they started from.

I think it would have been better if they treated it like CSI, with several arcs for each character that are relatively planned. But that's just it. SG1 was basically a fly by the seat of the pants show. Nothing was planned, and what little was didn't exactly feel right because it was all jumps and starts (look at Jonas for instance)

Sadly, I feel you are correct. It would not have taken much tweaking to have gone beyond that tried and tested formula. I felt sorry for Corin, having a character brought in as a replacement for another, given scripts clearly written for the original character (I'm particularly thinking of Frozen here) then being casually written out because they have the original back, seemed very harsh and not at all well planned. It would have been much better to keep Jonas around, even if not as a regular.

It's a matter of balance IMO. Jack/Sam was not balanced at all. If you really think about it, there's maybe 10 episodes total that actually show some 'growth' between the pair, and some of those are just alternate realities making the ship seem "destined".

It's really jarring, isn't it? And quite clear that some of the producers/directors want nothing to do with the sorry mess, while others want to play around with it. Which means it disappears for whole runs of episodes, with the characters acting as though there is nothing but a professional relationship between them, only to turn up again, when a director is used who favours it. Which, of course, makes the characters look like idiots who can't carry on a normal relationship. Dreadful lack of forward planning and about as realistic as a Soap (where plotlines peter out only to be resurrected much later down the line).
Said it before; had this mess been better written, had consequences, been shown with a modicum of reality and believability, I wouldn't find it so ridiculous and stupid.

Unfortunately i think this has led to a new problem. They've taken these criticisms on slow or no character build up or development and gone to the other extreme in SGU.

I'll reserve judgment until I've seen SGU.

To this day, i can't believe any romantic scenes in Stargate that weren't "tragic" in the sense that it ends up going nowhere. Yet, it's those tragic romances where nothing ends up coming of it that are the most believable. Or when they just focus on friendship without BLATANT UST, it actually comes out much much stronger. (Spacemonkey anyone?)

Hence my calling it melodrama, it all feels too contrived, too artificial, doesn't ebb and flow like a real relationship. Sam and Jack is akin to a pair of teenagers in something like Beverly Hills 91210, or any other teenage soap. Rather than two adults trying to find their way around a difficult situation (the regulations and their oaths to the USAF) and acting in a mature and believable manner.
And, yes, because all that supposedly tragic and angst ridden stuff and they are never shown enjoying each other in a normal, realistic way once the supposed 'romance' raises it's head. It all has to be Very Dramatic and Terribly Important between Sam and Jack. And very unrealistic and silly if you prefer your dramas to show real relationships and the real dilemmas posed by them.

Too late now, SG1 is over, closed canon, we have what we got and have to ignore the silliness sometimes foisted on the characters.

I also think TPTB either didn't think things through clearly, or they sabotaged potential storylines and character dynamics in favor of their OTP. The reason i like Sam/Sheppard so much is that they're actually very similar, and i see a sort of equality between them despite their differences. They've had many similar experiences and we all know Sheppard loves scientists. There's a deleted scene where Sam and Shep talk on the balcony and Shep invites her for a beer to celebrate Ronon's return. It's purely friendly, but they share a funny yet deeper moment of Sam settling into Atlantis, and that's it. no romance whatsoever. Those are the scenes i love to be mixed in with the action.

Yet, at the same time, i can believe Sam/John more than Sam/Jack given the fact that Sam/John have had *Gasp!* actual conversations! You see them working together and even joking around amicably without a constipated tension between them. This is one of hte reasons there are Sam/Cam shippers IMO as well since Sam/Cam never had that underlying tension that just ruins those friendship moments.

It's just like real life, If you have the subtlety of a sledgehammer, success will elude you

Love that last line!
And it's good to know that your fanfic provides you with such joy, without having to insist that everyone else is wrong and your views on the characters are the only ones which matter.

FF

[Targust]

Hello. Targust. You made it then. Care to share your top three Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam reasons with the class? Points will be given for originality and correct use of punctuation.

*clears throat*

My Top Three Reasons Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam:

1. I don't see the chemistry past the Carter/Sir. I don't see moments of closeness or even friendship like I see with Jack/Daniel. Heck, I think Jack/Janet has more chemistry than Jack/Sam.
2. The whole concept is lame. If TPTB wanted a strong, kick ass female character, why have her fall for her commanding officer? I think its insulting.
3. I don't like Sam as a character, period. She's poorly written. Watching SG-1, I don't have any feelings towards her being a woman in a man's military, or think she's brilliant, or even think she's funny or cool. I think the writers and TPTB could have done so much more with the character, but they chose not to, and its sad because there's potential there.

Why not? I will add two more:

4. Because some of the folks who are begging for some sort of Jack/Sam ship verification in the upcoming movie (if its going to be made) are crazy and make me not want to admit to being in this fandom.

5. Writin' Jack/Daniel pron is so much hotter! Woot!

*runs*

[Frostfox]

*clears throat*

My Top Three Reasons Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam:

1. I don't see the chemistry past the Carter/Sir. I don't see moments of closeness or even friendship like I see with Jack/Daniel. Heck, I think Jack/Janet has more chemistry than Jack/Sam.

Agreed, which is why using the elusive 'chemistry', when writing the show, is a bad idea. I find that Sam and Jack have chemistry, it's only when 'romantic' scenes come up that it seems to flee and the scenes come over so forced and false, I find it really jarring and it pulls me out of the show.

2. The whole concept is lame. If TPTB wanted a strong, kick ass female character, why have her fall for her commanding officer? I think its insulting.

It's such a tired, sad, old cliché, isn't it? And TPTB clearly didn't think of the ramifications and realistic fall out of such a relationship for the characters. If the relationship became public knowledge, all Sam's achievements, promotions, all her years of work at the SGC would be dismissed as nepotism and 'sleeping her way to the top'. Where as Jack would get a slap on the back and congratulations for nailing the pretty bird - yes, the hypocrisy ticks me off too, but that is what would happen, even in the 21c.

3. I don't like Sam as a character, period. She's poorly written. Watching SG-1, I don't have any feelings towards her being a woman in a man's military, or think she's brilliant, or even think she's funny or cool. I think the writers and TPTB could have done so much more with the character, but they chose not to, and its sad because there's potential there.

I do like Sam, but it is a risk that TPTB ran; if they focus on two of their characters to the detriment of all the other characters and their relationships on the show, then they lose the part of the audience who don't like those particular characters. They lost the balance several times over the years, with various different characters.

Why not? I will add two more:

4. Because some of the folks who are begging for some sort of Jack/Sam ship verification in the upcoming movie (if its going to be made) are crazy and make me not want to admit to being in this fandom.

This doesn't bother me; there are obsessed fans in all fandoms and all parts of fandom. And I don't like discussing other fans behind their backs, so this thread, where the fans of Sam/Jack don't come, isn't the place to talk about them. I'm quite happy to debate the issue with them, sometimes fans need to be reminded that their way of viewing the show isn't universal and that other fan's opinions are equally pertinent and valid.

5. Writin' Jack/Daniel pron is so much hotter! Woot!

*runs*

Oh, agreed, S/J fanfic is too vanilla for my taste, but to each their own, I don't often feel int the mood for it but if I'm going to read SG1 het fanfic it is going to be Jack/Janet or Sam/Teal'c, not canonical but much more interesting than banal Sam/Sir.

FF

[discodiva]

*clears throat*

My Top Three Reasons Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam:

1. I don't see the chemistry past the Carter/Sir. I don't see moments of closeness or even friendship like I see with Jack/Daniel. Heck, I think Jack/Janet has more chemistry than Jack/Sam.

This.

2. The whole concept is lame. If TPTB wanted a strong, kick ass female character, why have her fall for her commanding officer? I think its insulting.

This. again...

3. I don't like Sam as a character, period. She's poorly written. Watching SG-1, I don't have any feelings towards her being a woman in a man's military, or think she's brilliant, or even think she's funny or cool. I think the writers and TPTB could have done so much more with the character, but they chose not to, and its sad because there's potential there.

This. again. again..

Why not? I will add two more:

4. Because some of the folks who are begging for some sort of Jack/Sam ship verification in the upcoming movie (if its going to be made) are crazy and make me not want to admit to being in this fandom.

It's a 4'fer..this yet again...

5. Writin' Jack/Daniel pron is so much hotter! Woot!

*runs*

Oooooo...sooooo this!.......not that I write...but boy, do I appreciate all those in my fandom who do!...


Deeds xx

[madaboutdanny]

*clears throat*

My Top Three Reasons Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam:
3. I don't like Sam as a character, period. She's poorly written. Watching SG-1, I don't have any feelings towards her being a woman in a man's military, or think she's brilliant, or even think she's funny or cool. I think the writers and TPTB could have done so much more with the character, but they chose not to, and its sad because there's potential there.
*runs*

This! I so agree with you!

[Targust]

Agreed, which is why using the elusive 'chemistry', when writing the show, is a bad idea. I find that Sam and Jack have chemistry, it's only when 'romantic' scenes come up that it seems to flee and the scenes come over so forced and false, I find it really jarring and it pulls me out of the show.FF

Any "attempt" of "romance" between the two just seems so...forced, in my opinion. I didn't believe it because it seemed so forced and contrived. Its like if they don't believe it, why should I?

It's such a tired, sad, old cliché, isn't it? And TPTB clearly didn't think of the ramifications and realistic fall out of such a relationship for the characters. If the relationship became public knowledge, all Sam's achievements, promotions, all her years of work at the SGC would be dismissed as nepotism and 'sleeping her way to the top'. Where as Jack would get a slap on the back and congratulations for nailing the pretty bird - yes, the hypocrisy ticks me off too, but that is what would happen, even in the 21c.
FF

Exactly what you said. Right there. Its baffling how this can be ok for people.

[Targust]

Oooooo...sooooo this!.......not that I write...but boy, do I appreciate all those in my fandom who do!...
Deeds xx

Hee!

[Frostfox]

Any "attempt" of "romance" between the two just seems so...forced, in my opinion. I didn't believe it because it seemed so forced and contrived. Its like if they don't believe it, why should I?

And the more they forced it, the less palatable and less believable it became; as I said, using all the music cues and blocking the characters together. As though they couldn't trust the relationship to stand or fall on it's own merits, they had to keep propping it up.

Exactly what you said. Right there. Its baffling how this can be ok for people.

I can't believe that professional writers couldn't think through the ramifications of what they were trying to achieve when writing the relationship. It's their job to do that, not us viewers having to hand-wave or find excuses for poor plot and characterisation.

FF

[Aragon101]

And the more they forced it, the less palatable and less believable it became; as I said, using all the music cues and blocking the characters together. As though they couldn't trust the relationship to stand or fall on it's own merits, they had to keep propping it up.



I can't believe that professional writers couldn't think through the ramifications of what they were trying to achieve when writing the relationship. It's their job to do that, not us viewers having to hand-wave or find excuses for poor plot and characterisation.

FF

OMG, i'd SOO green you for that if i could i can't stand it when i run into someone willing to make every excuse for what the show did. Fanfic is different, Fanfic can go places that TPTB weren't willing to go until one of the characters left the show. But i detest the idea of excusing poor writing and plot points in order to make the universe fit in with the ship rather than the ship fit with the universe. I'm talking about the SHOW of course.

Personally, the worst IMO was one person telling me about this whole psychological profile done on Sam and Jack and why it would take them 8 years to get together because of all their hangups and such. They are FICTIONAL characters on a TV show! I shouldn't HAVE to go into such depth to see a relationship possibility with them. It should be natural and progress over the course of time. And progression means you know... hanging out together outside of work, sharing activities outside of work, having similar interests outside of work. Basically, see them outside of work having fun and enjoying each other's company. Yet what did we keep on seeing? Jack likes beer and Simpsons, Sam like Motorcycles and Naquadah Generators.

Sheridan and Delenn had a great buildup to their relationship, episode after episode you saw progression, and it never overpowered the main story. Is it that hard to just be patient and let it happen naturally instead of being impatient and jumping 10 steps in a single bound?

[jckfan55]

Team, team, team.

[Frostfox]

OMG, i'd SOO green you for that if i could i can't stand it when i run into someone willing to make every excuse for what the show did. Fanfic is different, Fanfic can go places that TPTB weren't willing to go until one of the characters left the show. But i detest the idea of excusing poor writing and plot points in order to make the universe fit in with the ship rather than the ship fit with the universe. I'm talking about the SHOW of course.

Fanfic is wonderful, fanfic is great for exploring aspects of the show which TPTB didn't have the time, inclination or impetus to show in the 45 brief minutes they got every week.
I hold TPTB and the show to different standards than fanfic. Not higher standards, different ones.

Personally, the worst IMO was one person telling me about this whole psychological profile done on Sam and Jack and why it would take them 8 years to get together because of all their hangups and such. They are FICTIONAL characters on a TV show! I shouldn't HAVE to go into such depth to see a relationship possibility with them. It should be natural and progress over the course of time. And progression means you know... hanging out together outside of work, sharing activities outside of work, having similar interests outside of work. Basically, see them outside of work having fun and enjoying each other's company. Yet what did we keep on seeing? Jack likes beer and Simpsons, Sam like Motorcycles and Naquadah Generators.

Hanging together outside work and such wasn't allowed due to the military relationship between the characters, I'd have taken that as a hint, if I was writing the show. If my characters can't have a normal relationship due to their ranks, it might be a not very subtle hint that the wonderful relationship you are crafting isn't all that wonderful really.
I also don't get the need to code everything to do with the relationship in some sort of 'sekret speshel' manner. Fishing which means, wink wink, nudge, nudge, passion everlasting. Unless, of course, it doesn't. Unless Jack and Teal'c had a 'passion everlasting' too? 'Sekret' and 'speshel' smacks of juvenile and contrived and beneath the dignity of decorated USAF officers and grown adults.

Sheridan and Delenn had a great buildup to their relationship, episode after episode you saw progression, and it never overpowered the main story. Is it that hard to just be patient and let it happen naturally instead of being impatient and jumping 10 steps in a single bound?

JMS had his faults but he had planned B5 carefully and it showed.

Team, team, team.

Preach it jckfan55, preach it.

FF

[jdjunkie]

(Spacemonkey anyone?)

Yes please.

I think Jack/Janet has more chemistry than Jack/Sam.

Jack/Janet would have worked fantastically well, and I believe it was something the writers thought about initially. I always thought there was a great spark between them, and could quite easily see something in their past. Pity they didn't go that route. It would have been inifintely preferable ... and more believable.

Team, team, team.

Yes, yes, yes!

[Frostfox]

Jack/Janet would have worked fantastically well, and I believe it was something the writers thought about initially. I always thought there was a great spark between them, and could quite easily see something in their past. Pity they didn't go that route. It would have been inifintely preferable ... and more believable.

I don't look for romance in my TVSF, and it would have led to medical complications, but I think I could have believed in Jack and Janet. Certainly more believable than Sam and Jack, but isn't every proto-relationship on SG1 more realistic than Sam/Sir?

FF

[Targust]

Yes please.



Jack/Janet would have worked fantastically well, and I believe it was something the writers thought about initially. I always thought there was a great spark between them, and could quite easily see something in their past. Pity they didn't go that route. It would have been inifintely preferable ... and more believable.

Janet, IMHO, had a lot more spunk and fire to her personality than Sam ever did. There was also respect there between the two characters, and I didn't see that in the Jack/Sam interactions. It was always fun to see Janet and Jack on screen together!

Also, I admired Janet. She didn't take any of Jack's BS.

I immortalized her in two of my fics...she's drinking mint juleps and making a killing on the Jack/Daniel bets.