Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Me three.....S.7 was sadly disappointing in true Team goodness, which was a shame since the (imho) "lynchpin" of their team was returned to them.......


Deeds xx

Sadly, the team balance never really got back on an even keel for me in quite the same way after the end of Season Five.
I like Corin Nemic, I thought Jonas had lots of potential, never fully realised and in particular, I liked Sam and Jonas relationship. But I missed Daniel fiercely throughout Season Six and high hopes for his return, which TPTB never quite fulfilled.
There were flashes of teamy goodness after that, but something felt lost to me, I wouldn't pin the blame wholey on the Sam/Jack farce, but it didn't help.

FF

[jdjunkie]

But I missed Daniel fiercely throughout Season Six and high hopes for his return, which TPTB never quite fulfilled.
There were flashes of teamy goodness after that, but something felt lost to me, I wouldn't pin the blame wholey on the Sam/Jack farce, but it didn't help.

FF

Oh, let's not get started on season seven and the massive lost opportunities after Daniel's return. There isn't enough cyberspace in this or any other universe for me to adequately express my feelings on that.

I watched Tangent today. That had a great teamy feel to it, even though they were effectively split ... Jack and Teal'c, Sam and Daniel, with wonderful backup from Hammond and Davis and Jacob. Everyone was playing their part in getting Jack and Teal'c home. My point is, if they could pull off a good team ep like that without having the team together (which happened more and more after that point) why in the name of all that's holy couldn't they do it later on, too?

[Frostfox]

Oh, let's not get started on season seven and the massive lost opportunities after Daniel's return. There isn't enough cyberspace in this or any other universe for me to adequately express my feelings on that.

I watched Tangent today. That had a great teamy feel to it, even though they were effectively split ... Jack and Teal'c, Sam and Daniel, with wonderful backup from Hammond and Davis and Jacob. Everyone was playing their part in getting Jack and Teal'c home. My point is, if they could pull off a good team ep like that without having the team together (which happened more and more after that point) why in the name of all that's holy couldn't they do it later on, too?

They could do it, they did do it, regularly and well. Which is why it ticked me off when they lost it in later seasons, for no good reason and to the detriment to the show as a whole, so they could push an insipid and unconvincing attempt at a relationship which pleased no one in the end.

FF Who is at Eastercon, the biggest British SF con of the year, 1000+ in a hotel at Heathrow with free wifi so expect updates through out the weekend, when I'm vaguely sober.

[jckfan55]

Oh, let's not get started on season seven and the massive lost opportunities after Daniel's return. There isn't enough cyberspace in this or any other universe for me to adequately express my feelings on that.

I watched Tangent today. That had a great teamy feel to it, even though they were effectively split ... Jack and Teal'c, Sam and Daniel, with wonderful backup from Hammond and Davis and Jacob. Everyone was playing their part in getting Jack and Teal'c home. My point is, if they could pull off a good team ep like that without having the team together (which happened more and more after that point) why in the name of all that's holy couldn't they do it later on, too?

A wonderful example.
I think the writers for got each of the team members had a relationship with each of the others. Sam & Daniel, Daniel & Teal'c, Jack and Teal'c etc. I think they especially forgot that Sam had a relationship with Daniel. And by the time they gave him the big storyline in S9 &10 they seemed to forget Daniel had a relationship with either Sam or Teal'c. But that's for another thread.

[jdjunkie]

A wonderful example.
I think the writers for got each of the team members had a relationship with each of the others. Sam & Daniel, Daniel & Teal'c, Jack and Teal'c etc. I think they especially forgot that Sam had a relationship with Daniel. And by the time they gave him the big storyline in S9 &10 they seemed to forget Daniel had a relationship with either Sam or Teal'c. But that's for another thread.

Truth is, I think, as you say, the writers lost sight of ALL the relationships, and by doing that lost sight of SG-1 was all about, for some of us, anyway.

Team is THE thing for me, and that's why Jack/Sam still niggles and rankles to this day. The seismic shift in the dynamic when the writers started shoving that pairing to the fore at the expense of all others was a disaster for the show. It never recovered.

I have major issues with seasons nine and ten. I don't hate them, in fact I rather like some eps (hello The Quest and The Shroud, I'm looking at you) but they don't resonate with me like the early years did.

Oooh, sounds like this is becoming the team thread, which I enjoyed lurking on muchly. Because TEEEAAAAMMMM!

[Frostfox]

A wonderful example.
I think the writers for got each of the team members had a relationship with each of the others. Sam & Daniel, Daniel & Teal'c, Jack and Teal'c etc. I think they especially forgot that Sam had a relationship with Daniel. And by the time they gave him the big storyline in S9 &10 they seemed to forget Daniel had a relationship with either Sam or Teal'c. But that's for another thread.

I found the lack of Sam/Daniel particularly sad. I think, in part, because I had excellent fan fic writers on LJ to keep Daniel/Jack alive for me and there were not really many fanfic writers doing Sam & Daniel stuff. Strong, realistic relationships between men and women are few and far between, it always has to be romantic, which is stupid, 99% of the relationships we have on a day to day basis are not romances, I find the need for so many relationships to be sexualized to be unnecessary and contrived.

Truth is, I think, as you say, the writers lost sight of ALL the relationships, and by doing that lost sight of SG-1 was all about, for some of us, anyway.

Team is THE thing for me, and that's why Jack/Sam still niggles and rankles to this day. The seismic shift in the dynamic when the writers started shoving that pairing to the fore at the expense of all others was a disaster for the show. It never recovered.

I have major issues with seasons nine and ten. I don't hate them, in fact I rather like some eps (hello The Quest and The Shroud, I'm looking at you) but they don't resonate with me like the early years did.

Oooh, sounds like this is becoming the team thread, which I enjoyed lurking on muchly. Because TEEEAAAAMMMM!

Team is why I'd never push for Jack/Daniel on the show, despite it being my favourite in fanfiction; I'm not so invested in SG1 that I can't separate my fanfic preferences from show canon and any one to one relationship takes from SG1 as a whole. It becomes the couple plus those other two characters, regardless of the couple in the pairings.
The team relationship is the real magic and the real reason SG1 was on TV for 10 years, it's pathetic that TPTB were so willing to forget that for a silly romance they had no intention of fulfilling or using as a proper plot device.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Team is why I'd never push for Jack/Daniel on the show, despite it being my favourite in fanfiction; I'm not so invested in SG1 that I can't separate my fanfic preferences from show canon and any one to one relationship takes from SG1 as a whole. It becomes the couple plus those other two characters, regardless of the couple in the pairings. FF

I think fanfic actually has a lot to answer for in terms of fans' expectations of what they want to see in the show. The dividing line between fanon and canon, and what you expect in both, can easily get blurred when you're heavily invested in a pairing. I wonder if this hasn't happened in terms of Jack/Sam to some extent because, honestly, whatever turns up in movie #3 (assuming anything ever does) won't be enough for some fans. Leaving aside that anything will be too much for us ...

One of the 1,642,321 reasons I'm thrilled my pairing isn't canon.

[Aragon101]

I think fanfic actually has a lot to answer for in terms of fans' expectations of what they want to see in the show. The dividing line between fanon and canon, and what you expect in both, can easily get blurred when you're heavily invested in a pairing. I wonder if this hasn't happened in terms of Jack/Sam to some extent because, honestly, whatever turns up in movie #3 (assuming anything ever does) won't be enough for some fans. Leaving aside that anything will be too much for us ...

One of the 1,642,321 reasons I'm thrilled my pairing isn't canon.

Totaly agree about Fanon bein g treated like Canon. It becomes difficult to distinguish between the two when you read so much. I'm reminded of Chris Rock, if you hear something 900 times, yo ustart to lose your mind.

I take fanfic for what it is, enertainment aside from the show. ALL Fanfic is AU to me, none of it is canon nor should it be treated as such.

I'm quite glad my own favored pairing isn't canon, it's complicated and i don't trust TPTB to do it right!

[Frostfox]

I think fanfic actually has a lot to answer for in terms of fans' expectations of what they want to see in the show. The dividing line between fanon and canon, and what you expect in both, can easily get blurred when you're heavily invested in a pairing. I wonder if this hasn't happened in terms of Jack/Sam to some extent because, honestly, whatever turns up in movie #3 (assuming anything ever does) won't be enough for some fans. Leaving aside that anything will be too much for us ...

One of the 1,642,321 reasons I'm thrilled my pairing isn't canon.

You may be right, still, as a whole, I think fanfic is a good thing, a creative thing, to be celebrated and enjoyed.

Totally agree about Fanon being treated like Canon. It becomes difficult to distinguish between the two when you read so much. I'm reminded of Chris Rock, if you hear something 900 times, you start to lose your mind.

I take fanfic for what it is, enterainment aside from the show. ALL Fanfic is AU to me, none of it is canon nor should it be treated as such.

I'm quite glad my own favored pairing isn't canon, it's complicated and i don't trust TPTB to do it right!

All fanfic is canon, by it's very nature; anything not shown on screen is fanon. Therefore, all fanfic is fanon, whether the pairing involved is canon or not.
I am totally able to differentiate between fanon and canon, able to stand back from my OTP and not see it as anything but fanon. Quite happy with the fact it's not canon, thank you very much.
I have trouble explaining to some fans that my fanon pairing doesn't mean I don't have valid, canonical reasons for thinking that Sam and Jack is puerile and trite. I understand that the very obsessed or very young might not be able to distance themselves from the source material, they might not be able to keep their fanon preferences distinct from the show's canon and they don't seem to understand that my level of involvement in SG1, my level of emotional commitment means I can.

FF

[jdjunkie]

You may be right, still, as a whole, I think fanfic is a good thing, a creative thing, to be celebrated and enjoyed.



All fanfic is canon, by it's very nature; anything not shown on screen is fanon. Therefore, all fanfic is fanon, whether the pairing involved is canon or not.
I am totally able to differentiate between fanon and canon, able to stand back from my OTP and not see it as anything but fanon. Quite happy with the fact it's not canon, thank you very much.
I have trouble explaining to some fans that my fanon pairing doesn't mean I don't have valid, canonical reasons for thinking that Sam and Jack is puerile and trite. I understand that the very obsessed or very young might not be able to distance themselves from the source material, they might not be able to keep their fanon preferences distinct from the show's canon and they don't seem to understand that my level of involvement in SG1, my level of emotional commitment means I can.

FF

Well, I think you know I agree with you about the overall merits of fanfic.

*sigh* If I had a penny for every time ... it's all because the canon pairing gets in the way of our fanon preference you know. Apparently.

[Targust]

I'm quite glad my own favored pairing isn't canon, it's complicated and i don't trust TPTB to do it right!

*waves* Boy, is that ever right.

jdjunkie guided me here, the evil, evil woman. I love her anyway.

In my mind, and this is my mind, take it as you will...but the glory of our OTP is that we don't need vindication from TPTB for any "hint" or anything the pairing exists. Its there already. When I began watching SGA I about fell out of my chair at how the whole John/Rodney pairing was simply HANDED over to us, the viewers. When I got more involved with SG-1, it was the same thing with Jack/Daniel. Fanfic just emphasizes what we're seeing on screen.

[Frostfox]

Well, I think you know I agree with you about the overall merits of fanfic.

*sigh* If I had a penny for every time ... it's all because the canon pairing gets in the way of our fanon preference you know. Apparently.

Just because you can't separate your fan favouite pairing from your critical enjoyment of other aspects of the show, don't think that I can't either.

Jack/Daniel is my pairing of choice. But, guess what? I prefer Sam/AT later seasons to Jack/RDA. I'll vote for her in GW poles, sometimes to the exclusion of Jack/RDA or Daniel/MS - but, get this, only if I feel that Sam or AT deserve the vote, I might vote for Teal'c/CJ. I'm a grown up, I've been in fandom since 1982, my OTP gives me great pleasure but it's not sacrosanct and beyond criticism. Nor am I evangelical about it. To each their own, don't tell me how I should be watching and interpreting SG1 and I won't tell you.

*waves* Boy, is that ever right.

jdjunkie guided me here, the evil, evil woman. I love her anyway.

In my mind, and this is my mind, take it as you will...but the glory of our OTP is that we don't need vindication from TPTB for any "hint" or anything the pairing exists. Its there already. When I began watching SGA I about fell out of my chair at how the whole John/Rodney pairing was simply HANDED over to us, the viewers. When I got more involved with SG-1, it was the same thing with Jack/Daniel. Fanfic just emphasizes what we're seeing on screen.

You don't have to be a slash fan to find Sam and Jack, trite, histrionic, juvenile, puerile, and just plain old bad writing. I don't have problems with the Sam/Jack fans, we are all entitled to enjoy different things about SG1.

FF

[Frostfox]

Oh, double post, but I had to let you know, I'm a Hugo nominee again this year. In the immortal words of Jack O'Neill, "This should not get old." and nor does it.
Much celebrating was done (including rather a lot of Welsh whisky!)

Spoiler:

L to R
James Bacon (fanzine editor), Cheryl Baker (semi-prozine editor), Mark Plummer (fanzine editor), me in turquoise (fan artist), Chris Garcia in front (fanzine editor), Paul Cornell (pro, nominations, graphic story and novelette) , Ellen Datlow (pro editor), Farah Mendlesohn (two non fiction nominations) and Claire Brialey (fan writer and fanzine ed) hiding at the back.




Photos by Vince Clarke.

I don't think Paul or Chris have come down off the ceiling yet.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I'm quite glad my own favored pairing isn't canon, it's complicated and i don't trust TPTB to do it right!

Word.

You don't have to be a slash fan to find Sam and Jack, trite, histrionic, juvenile, puerile, and just plain old bad writing. I don't have problems with the Sam/Jack fans, we are all entitled to enjoy different things about SG1.

FF

Wordy McWord. It is entirely possible to be a fan of a pairing, or no pairing, or the original team, or the later team, or both teams, or the 'splosions or the pure sci fi, or any or none of the aforementioned and STILL not like Jack/Sam because you don't like Jack/Sam. It is possible. Just sayin' ...

Hello. Targust. You made it then. Care to share your top three Why I Don't Like Jack/Sam reasons with the class? Points will be given for originality and correct use of punctuation.

[Frostfox]

Wordy McWord. It is entirely possible to be a fan of a pairing, or no pairing, or the original team, or the later team, or both teams, or the 'splosions or the pure sci fi, or any or none of the aforementioned and STILL not like Jack/Sam because you don't like Jack/Sam. It is possible. Just sayin' ...

So, that would cover most of the dedicated fan base then?
Most casual fans, I suspect, don't care much either way.

FF