Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Aragon101]

It's unwatchable, isn't it? The scene leading up to the Burnt Steak, Burned Engagement moment is just as bad; Sam sitting in her car in Jack's driveway, acting like an awkward schoolgirl. Awful.

Sartorially speaking, the contrast between chic, fashionable Kerry and Sam, who has clearly shopped at LibrariansRUs (with apologies for appalling stereotyping of librarians everywhere) is so stark.

For heaven's sake, this woman blows up suns and can explain physics with doughnuts ... show her some respect, writers, please!

The sad thing is that it's rampant in SG1 amd SGA, they could constantly emphasize that the character was a woman (this goes for just aout any character) like. "OMG! It's a girl! Icky!"

Spoiler:

[Frostfox]

Multiquote appears to have gone AWOL, so I'll just respond in a big lump. Heh, you Have been warned.

Firstly, massive props for this list. I think you've touched on points that every anti can wholeheartedly agree with.

My main gripe with Jack/Sam has always been that it was detrimental to the team dynamic. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever to the contrary. The more they pushed the ship storyline (I refuse to call it an arc because that infers that some actual thought went into the planning of the story and there seems to have been a singular lack of planning involved) the more the intra-team dynamics suffered.

It's no coincidence that many team fans prefrerred the early seasons, before the Sam/Daniel, Sam/Teal'c, Jack/Daniel scenes took such a massive hit. Sam/Daniel was particularly badly hit (and yes there are still S/D shippers out there, I think!) mainly, I suspect, because Sam had more chemistry with Daniel and Daniel had more chemistry with Jack than Jack/Sam ever produced on screen.

Which is why, if they had to do the romance, it should have been a carefully crafted arc. And we know, from all the hot/cold of various different TPTB towards the relationship, and their confession that they didn't have a show bible, that it wasn't carefully planned. It clearly wasn't plotted in such a way as to take into consideration the effect on other aspects of the show.

In agreement with the bolded, which is why relying on romantic chemistry is bad idea, too subjective.

Poor Sam lost every storyline she ever had; the Tok'ra connection (I'm sure I read somewhere that AT had to go and ASK for a storyline at one point, and the one they gave her was lost when Jack/Sam reared its ugly head). Martouf had to go, hence we lost the Jolinar throughline, and even Jacob paid the price so that we could have the slighly embarrassing Always scene, on top of the wholly embarrassing barbecue scene in one appalling ep. Janet died, and Sam lost a friend. All the way along, Sam was becoming more and more isloated and reliant on the ship storyline, to the point where TPTB didn't know what to do with her when Jack left. Ack with a side order of ack. *rages*

This makes me so mad for Sam, for Amanda, for the writers who did handle Sam well and the fans.

I'm a big MS fan but I think AT is as talented as he is, she just didn't get the meaty storylines MS got, no Abyss or Lifeboat or Holiday for her, she gets Grace or Threads or Chimera. Daniel gets to save the universe, Sam gets to kiss the boss! Woo hoo! Excuse me if I am underwhelmed at the use of brilliant actress.

Ohhh, cheesy "destined to be". This. It was never a star-crossed romance, or one that was preordained. The glimpses of AU Jacks and Sams were disastrous for them and the world at large!

The lack of common interests between Jack and Sam is something I come back to a lot. What would they talk about? Really? I see them as having a good, solid working relationship, and a work-based friendship that doesn't extend out of work hours. I have people I work with whom I call friends, but rarely socialise with. That's how I see Jack and Sam.

But above all else, it's the lack of romantic chemistry and the power imbalance that totally squicks me. I mistakenly clicked on a Jack/Sam fic once (it was in a list and I wanted to read the one below that wasn't Jack/Sam) where Jack called her Carter in bed! And not by mistake, mind. He called her Carter!, like it was a pet name or something. Nonononononono. Just no. I don't see them being able or willing to cross that professional line.

So Khent ... brava.

So many reasons to say no to this ill-conceived ship.

They never, in canon, in 10+ years, showed Sam or Jack having an intelligent, adult conversation about their supposed fabulous love for each other. Never, not once.
I cannot imagine what they would talk about if they were in a normal relationship with each other, but as they are in different galaxies, I don't suppose it matters.

Exactly and well said. I cringed at that scene. I simply cannot watch that scene.
(Not sure if AT was expecting yet at the time, but even if that was the case, surely there was something more attractive they could have put her in.)

It's unwatchable, isn't it? The scene leading up to the Burnt Steak, Burned Engagement moment is just as bad; Sam sitting in her car in Jack's driveway, acting like an awkward schoolgirl. Awful.

Sartorially speaking, the contrast between chic, fashionable Kerry and Sam, who has clearly shopped at LibrariansRUs (with apologies for appalling stereotyping of librarians everywhere) is so stark.

For heaven's sake, this woman blows up suns and can explain physics with doughnuts ... show her some respect, writers, please!

You have to be working really, really hard to make a woman as attractive as AT look so frumpy. I can't imagine what they were thinking? Costuming on SG1 was good, they were creative and distinctive. She looked stunning in BDU's for heavens sake! And the contrast between Sam and Kerry? It's utterly bizarre and I cannot think of a single logical reason for it. What does it say about Sam, showing this brilliant woman acting like a lovesick school girl? That she's not good at relationships? She managed to have relationships previously?

But then, this is a relationship with Jack we are talking about! That that alpha of alpha males, before which all other men cower and can never compare. How can any other man she has ever met, ever had a relationship with, compare with him? That paragon of masculine desire, of course he devolves this clever, competent, charming woman into a bundle of hormones and robs her of all her faculties.

Bilious, contrived, hysterical tripe. AT and RDA and Sam and Jack deserved so much more.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Poor Sam lost every storyline she ever had; the Tok'ra connection (I'm sure I read somewhere that AT had to go and ASK for a storyline at one point, and the one they gave her was lost when Jack/Sam reared its ugly head). Martouf had to go, hence we lost the Jolinar throughline, and even Jacob paid the price so that we could have the slighly embarrassing Always scene, on top of the wholly embarrassing barbecue scene in one appalling ep. Janet died, and Sam lost a friend. All the way along, Sam was becoming more and more isloated and reliant on the ship storyline, to the point where TPTB didn't know what to do with her when Jack left. Ack with a side order of ack. *rages*

Well said. I think this is why I've actually come to like Sam more in the years since the show ended. Part of it was that I liked her on Atlantis. So that helps. But after the show ended, in retrospect it was easier for me to see past the ship and notice all of Sam's good qualities as a strong and interesting character. It's just that most of the things I liked about her were pushed aside when they chose to focus on the ship/romance-y stuff instead.

So Khent ... brava.

Molte grazie.

The sad thing is that it's rampant in SG1 amd SGA, they could constantly emphasize that the character was a woman (this goes for just aout any character) like. "OMG! It's a girl! Icky!"

Spoiler:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a196/Aragon101/Random%20Funnies/picardandrikerdoublefacnm1.jpg

That picture is made of awesomeness!! It also made me laugh.

But then, this is a relationship with Jack we are talking about! That that alpha of alpha males, before which all other men cower and can never compare. How can any other man she has ever met, ever had a relationship with, compare with him? That paragon of masculine desire, of course he devolves this clever, competent, charming woman into a bundle of hormones and robs her of all her faculties.

Brilliantly funny description.

[Frostfox]

Well said. I think this is why I've actually come to like Sam more in the years since the show ended. Part of it was that I liked her on Atlantis. So that helps. But after the show ended, in retrospect it was easier for me to see past the ship and notice all of Sam's good qualities as a strong and interesting character. It's just that most of the things I liked about her were pushed aside when they chose to focus on the ship/romance-y stuff instead.

It's really hard for good women actors to find work worthy of their talent. Particularly if they aren't a plastic, Hollywood size zero.
It's getting more common to find interesting women in SF, though they are more common than they once were, they are still out weighed 10 to one by interesting male characters.

Though Sam never passed the Bechdel Test, she was still head and shoulders above SF women in the 70's and 80's (was Servelan the only interesting woman in a decade? And she was an amoral villain. Sarah Jane and Jo Grant? Still both highly stereotypical).
And so Sam and Amanda and the fans deserved her to be treated with a modicum of respect, and for a lot of SG1 she was. But when TPTB failed her (and us) they did it in spectacular form, not just with S/J but with their utter inability to write a credible relationship between adults.

FF

[Aragon101]

It's really hard for good women actors to find work worthy of their talent. Particularly if they aren't a plastic, Hollywood size zero.
It's getting more common to find interesting women in SF, though they are more common than they once were, they are still out weighed 10 to one by interesting male characters.

Though Sam never passed the Bechdel Test, she was still head and shoulders above SF women in the 70's and 80's (was Servelan the only interesting woman in a decade? And she was an amoral villain. Sarah Jane and Jo Grant? Still both highly stereotypical).
And so Sam and Amanda and the fans deserved her to be treated with a modicum of respect, and for a lot of SG1 she was. But when TPTB failed her (and us) they did it in spectacular form, not just with S/J but with their utter inability to write a credible relationship between adults.

FF

Re: the above bolded

That's an interesting choice of words. and i wholeheartedly agree. When i watch SG1 and a shippy moment comes up. I can't help but think "Afternoon Special!" and all the diabetic inducing warm and fuzzies that brings me. just coming up with this on the spot, but what if TPTB recognized that they couldn't do good "adult" relationship stuff which includes things in common, spending time together, maybe even having a conversation or two that isn't work related such as whether one plays an instrument or not (soo sad that they kept Sam's Cello playing for hte bitter end, and STILL took that back) or even just something even simpler like sports or pottery or...

No, That wouldn't be Sam/Jack then. Sam/Jack is two against the universe, which ironically, makes no sense since the universe wants them together.

Crap, now i've got to write another crackfic where God himself tells Jack and Sam to get together. I could even remake End of Days or "The Seventhe Seal"(Awesome movie BTW) where the apocalypse will come if Sam and Jack don't get together!

You know, stupid thought. But wouldn't it have been cool and unique if in one of the two AU's they showed in the early seasons, Jack had marrid JANET? or God Forbid, was still with Sara!?

It's like there's a singularity of ignorance regarding the subject and it's threatening to suck me into it's deep dark crevasse! Save me! Oh god something SAVE me from this! (turns on DS9) Ohh! Odo/Kira, Julian/Bashir, actual adults! All is well again

[jckfan55]

You have to be working really, really hard to make a woman as attractive as AT look so frumpy. I can't imagine what they were thinking? Costuming on SG1 was good, they were creative and distinctive. She looked stunning in BDU's for heavens sake! And the contrast between Sam and Kerry? It's utterly bizarre and I cannot think of a single logical reason for it.

Right! Heck, she would have looked better showing up in desert BDUs with combat boots!

Bilious, contrived, hysterical tripe. AT and RDA and Sam and Jack deserved so much more.

FF

Love your way with words!

[Khentkawes]

Re: the above bolded

That's an interesting choice of words. and i wholeheartedly agree. When i watch SG1 and a shippy moment comes up. I can't help but think "Afternoon Special!" and all the diabetic inducing warm and fuzzies that brings me.

Yep. Not adult or mature in any way I can imagine. When I watch TV (and this is far from just a Stargate thing), I have this little internal Sap Alert that goes off whenever the writing strays into that sickeningly sweet, completely unrealistic warm-fuzziness that I associate with bad Hallmark movies and romance novels. Unfortauntely, it seems like that idealized sappiness is exactly what the writers were aiming for with S/J. I have a very low sap tolerance, so needless to say, the Sap Alert goes off frequently. Actually, I have a low tolerance for sap in real life too. I've been known to irritate my friends by making sarcastic comments about the "excessive sap level" when they tell me about their boyfriends/girlfriends.

You know, stupid thought. But wouldn't it have been cool and unique if in one of the two AU's they showed in the early seasons, Jack had marrid JANET? or God Forbid, was still with Sara!?

Not a stupid idea at all! It would make more sense if the two AUs were wildly different. It never seemed that likely to me (statically speaking) that Sam and Jack would be together in the first two AU's the SGC encounters. I thought the whole point of AUs was that anything could happen and they were all different? So why didn't the writers take advantage of that opportunity and try to shake things up with each new alternate reality?

What's even more irritating to me is Ripple Effect, where there are multiple Sams and they have to state/imply that several of them are married/engaged/on maternity leave. There's a whole room full of Carters working on sciencey stuff and yet the writers have to keep mentioning her love life? Really?
*shrug* I guess I just think that the concept of alternate realities could open up so many interesting avenues for storytelling... and the "who's Carter dating in this reality" angle is not interesting to me. Plus, as stated before, it's a shame that her character had to be so defined by her love life in certain seasons of the show.

[Frostfox]

Re: the above bolded

That's an interesting choice of words. and i wholeheartedly agree. When i watch SG1 and a shippy moment comes up. I can't help but think "Afternoon Special!" and all the diabetic inducing warm and fuzzies that brings me. just coming up with this on the spot, but what if TPTB recognized that they couldn't do good "adult" relationship stuff which includes things in common, spending time together, maybe even having a conversation or two that isn't work related such as whether one plays an instrument or not (soo sad that they kept Sam's Cello playing for hte bitter end, and STILL took that back) or even just something even simpler like sports or pottery or...

No, That wouldn't be Sam/Jack then. Sam/Jack is two against the universe, which ironically, makes no sense since the universe wants them together.

Crap, now i've got to write another crackfic where God himself tells Jack and Sam to get together. I could even remake End of Days or "The Seventhe Seal"(Awesome movie BTW) where the apocalypse will come if Sam and Jack don't get together!

You know, stupid thought. But wouldn't it have been cool and unique if in one of the two AU's they showed in the early seasons, Jack had marrid JANET? or God Forbid, was still with Sara!?

It's like there's a singularity of ignorance regarding the subject and it's threatening to suck me into it's deep dark crevasse! Save me! Oh god something SAVE me from this! (turns on DS9) Ohh! Odo/Kira, Julian/Bashir, actual adults! All is well again

I know why TPTB showed them together in AU's.
Because RDA and the USAF meant that they couldn't do it in the main timeline (which I will always think of as Earth 616 geek moment) so the only way they could string on the fans of J/S was to excuse it as an AU, which didn't count as Sam or Jack or both could be outside the chain of command.
But it still meant the tedium of yet another oh, so, unsubtle hint from TPTB that our blissful lovebirds were Meant To Be and nothing and no one could stop them. Yawn. And, of course, if you think predestination is rubbish and an excuse for poor writing, then it obviously stands out like a sore thumb and shows up as a waste of an opportunity to use AU's to be more creative (Mirror, Mirror set the bench mark and that was in the 60's - written by Jerome Bixby, a real sf writer).

Right! Heck, she would have looked better showing up in desert BDUs with combat boots!

Love your way with words!

Amanda always looked good, even in BDU's (and no need for sexy adaptions of the basic design).

Yep. Not adult or mature in any way I can imagine. When I watch TV (and this is far from just a Stargate thing), I have this little internal Sap Alert that goes off whenever the writing strays into that sickeningly sweet, completely unrealistic warm-fuzziness that I associate with bad Hallmark movies and romance novels. Unfortauntely, it seems like that idealized sappiness is exactly what the writers were aiming for with S/J. I have a very low sap tolerance, so needless to say, the Sap Alert goes off frequently. Actually, I have a low tolerance for sap in real life too. I've been known to irritate my friends by making sarcastic comments about the "excessive sap level" when they tell me about their boyfriends/girlfriends.

I have a higher tolerance for romance in the real world than in the media.
But, getting a bit meta here, most of what late 20th/early 21st century media thinks is romantic, I find cloying and unbelievable and tedious. Romance as portrayed on US based TV (including SG1 here as, while made in Canada, it was targeted at the US market) is a very narrow bracket of what real romantic relationships are like. The themes and tropes it uses are repeated endlessly, one of which is leading man+leading woman, obviously, it follows set formula and very seldom deviates from the socially accepted norms.
There have been studies done on how romance portrayed in mass media (which, when you think about it, is a very recent addition to our culture, mass media is less than 100 years old, a mere eye blink in our history) and how it effects perceptions of love and relationships in peoples actual lives. Interesting stuff.
It is becoming increasingly common to live ones romantic ideals vicariously through romance novels/films/tv, particularly if one finds this area lacking in ones own life. Personally? I will take real romance and love, with all it's hiccups and foibles, over watching a TV couple, any day, but that's a matter of personal taste.

Not a stupid idea at all! It would make more sense if the two AUs were wildly different. It never seemed that likely to me (statically speaking) that Sam and Jack would be together in the first two AU's the SGC encounters. I thought the whole point of AUs was that anything could happen and they were all different? So why didn't the writers take advantage of that opportunity and try to shake things up with each new alternate reality?

Because Sam and Jack and The Love Which Transcends All Realities is special, more important than any other relationship ever. I know, TPTB tell me it is so. Of course the audience is just dying to see another example of another world where our divine lovebirds are together.

Silly Khent, get with the programme, how can you call yourself a real fan?

What's even more irritating to me is Ripple Effect, where there are multiple Sams and they have to state/imply that several of them are married/engaged/on maternity leave. There's a whole room full of Carters working on sciencey stuff and yet the writers have to keep mentioning her love life? Really?
*shrug* I guess I just think that the concept of alternate realities could open up so many interesting avenues for storytelling... and the "who's Carter dating in this reality" angle is not interesting to me. Plus, as stated before, it's a shame that her character had to be so defined by her love life in certain seasons of the show.

She's the Girl. She loves Sir. Sir is a man above and beyond all men, therefore the only way Sam can possibly be interesting is reflecting Sir's glory and being Sir's Woman. I know this because TPTB tell and show me this. What value is Sam the soldier, Sam the scientist, Sam-with-an-independent-existence if not to be half of Sam and Sir?

And we shall sweep under the carpet the little issue of what happens when Sir is no longer there.
Ooh, look! Vala!
Sam who?

FF

[jdjunkie]

You know, stupid thought. But wouldn't it have been cool and unique if in one of the two AU's they showed in the early seasons, Jack had marrid JANET? or God Forbid, was still with Sara!?

Oh hellzapoppin' ... could you have imagined the outcry from certain sections of fandom if Jack had been ... gulp ... involved with ANYONE else?? Think Pete only a zillion times worse. Strangely, Kerry didn't come in for any real lambasting, maybe because she was seen by some as a catalyst for finally getting the lovebirds together in Threads. (If you believe they got together then, which is, you know, highly questionable.)

Poor Laira caught some dreadful flack for daring to fall in love with Jack. I mean, there was Sam, pining back home and hinting about her feeeelings to Janet, and working 29 hours a day to bring him home, and there was Jack, who had the audacity to feel feelings for someone who wasn't Sam The fact that Laira helped him through the trauma of losing everything he held dear and seemed like a gentle, affectionate woman is by the by.

I've read a few fics where Jack and Janet did have a thing in the past, and those fics worked very well.

I would have loved an AU where Jack and Sara were reconciled after Charlie's death. I think it could have happened, and what a great throughline that would have made for Jack in the actual series. That could have been a believable relationship story that would have been intelligent and thought-provoking and would definitely have been one a lot of fans would have rooted for. *sigh*

So many opportunities lost in the face of youknowhat.

[jckfan55]

I would have loved an AU where Jack and Sara were reconciled after Charlie's death. I think it could have happened, and what a great throughline that would have made for Jack in the actual series. That could have been a believable relationship story that would have been intelligent and thought-provoking and would definitely have been one a lot of fans would have rooted for. *sigh*

Me too. I could really see Jack and Sara together.

You notice they never worried about who Daniel or Teal'c were with or not in the alternate realities. Prime example of tptb thinking "the girl's" main concern is romance.

re: the Sap Meter, Khent--I actually have a high tolerance for sappy happy endings. But it takes some talent to do schmaltz well. imho it has to be believable within the world that's been created so you let yourself go with it. imho, S/J was never believable in the world of SG1.

[Frostfox]

Oh hellzapoppin' ... could you have imagined the outcry from certain sections of fandom if Jack had been ... gulp ... involved with ANYONE else?? Think Pete only a zillion times worse. Strangely, Kerry didn't come in for any real lambasting, maybe because she was seen by some as a catalyst for finally getting the lovebirds together in Threads. (If you believe they got together then, which is, you know, highly questionable.)

Well, you've heard of separate beds? Sam and Jack went for separate universes!
But, of course, their love is written in the stars, so it doesn't matter, it is a force of nature that, even galaxies apart, they are one.
Eww, even I can't believe I wrote that dross.

Poor Laira caught some dreadful flack for daring to fall in love with Jack. I mean, there was Sam, pining back home and hinting about her feeeelings to Janet, and working 29 hours a day to bring him home, and there was Jack, who had the audacity to feel feelings for someone who wasn't Sam The fact that Laira helped him through the trauma of losing everything he held dear and seemed like a gentle, affectionate woman is by the by.

Laria? (Had to go look her up, Bad Fan!) Oh, yeah, 100 Days. Another character vilified for daring to come between the greatest love story ever forced into a TV show. Of course poor ikkle Sammykins worked herself to death to save Sir! That's true love SG1 style.

I've read a few fics where Jack and Janet did have a thing in the past, and those fics worked very well.

I would have loved an AU where Jack and Sara were reconciled after Charlie's death. I think it could have happened, and what a great throughline that would have made for Jack in the actual series. That could have been a believable relationship story that would have been intelligent and thought-provoking and would definitely have been one a lot of fans would have rooted for. *sigh*

So many opportunities lost in the face of youknowhat.

I'd have loved more variety in the AU's. I've no interest in long term romance on the show but a brief glimpse into other realities (caveat, interesting ones, ones which go beyond TPTB insistence on Sam 'n Sir) would have been fun.

Me too. I could really see Jack and Sara together.

You notice they never worried about who Daniel or Teal'c were with or not in the alternate realities. Prime example of tptb thinking "the girl's" main concern is romance.

re: the Sap Meter, Khent--I actually have a high tolerance for sappy happy endings. But it takes some talent to do schmaltz well. imho it has to be believable within the world that's been created so you let yourself go with it. imho, S/J was never believable in the world of SG1.

Re the bolded: clearly fans could only be interested in Sam's love life! It's well known that we girlies are only interested in romantic plotlines and are only interested in in Sam as an adjunct to Jack.

FF

[jdjunkie]

You notice they never worried about who Daniel or Teal'c were with or not in the alternate realities. Prime example of tptb thinking "the girl's" main concern is romance.

You know, I hadn't thought about that before, but you're absolutely right. No mention of who Teal'c or Daniel were or were not with. Of course, in one AR, Daniel was dead, which caused much of this But that's just me.

Well, you've heard of separate beds? Sam and Jack went for separate universes!
But, of course, their love is written in the stars, so it doesn't matter, it is a force of nature that, even galaxies apart, they are one.
Eww, even I can't believe I wrote that dross.FF

Neither can I.

In other news: Amanda's been talking about the ship in the official Stargate magazine. (Poor woman can't avoid ship questions even now).

"During Stargate SG-1's 10 seasons on the air, Samantha Carter found herself attracted to a few men, human and alien. A large and very vocal portion of the show's fans, or "shippers", longed for her and Jack O'Neill to get together, but military rules did not permit that.

"My character's relationship with O'Neill was probably the most influential and had the most longevity because he's not dead and hasn't gone away," says Tapping. "There was a flirtatious side of Sam that she was always afraid to show, and an awkward sexuality to her that I find to be quite endearing because she never really explored that side of herself. With O'Neill, I think Sam saw the possiblity of everything. There was a sexuality to it [their relationship] and a maturity. It was also quite intimate and, perhaps, because it was so forbidden, it was almost safe for Sam to think about because she knew she couldn't act on it. So it could be the ultimate fantasy."

There you have it.

Merely a safe bet.

What a relief!

(Oh, and my definition of 'maturity' doesn't tally with the use of the word as seen above).

[Aragon101]

You know, I hadn't thought about that before, but you're absolutely right. No mention of who Teal'c or Daniel were or were not with. Of course, in one AR, Daniel was dead, which caused much of this But that's just me.



Neither can I.

In other news: Amanda's been talking about the ship in the official Stargate magazine. (Poor woman can't avoid ship questions even now).

"During Stargate SG-1's 10 seasons on the air, Samantha Carter found herself attracted to a few men, human and alien. A large and very vocal portion of the show's fans, or "shippers", longed for her and Jack O'Neill to get together, but military rules did not permit that.

"My character's relationship with O'Neill was probably the most influential and had the most longevity because he's not dead and hasn't gone away," says Tapping. "There was a flirtatious side of Sam that she was always afraid to show, and an awkward sexuality to her that I find to be quite endearing because she never really explored that side of herself. With O'Neill, I think Sam saw the possiblity of everything. There was a sexuality to it [their relationship] and a maturity. It was also quite intimate and, perhaps, because it was so forbidden, it was almost safe for Sam to think about because she knew she couldn't act on it. So it could be the ultimate fantasy."

There you have it.

Merely a safe bet.

What a relief!

(Oh, and my definition of 'maturity' doesn't tally with the use of the word as seen above).

I've been told in very explicit terms that cannot be repeated on this forum by some shippers that they just don't CARE what RDA and AT think. Then again these shippers also personally attacked my opinion so i won't say all shippers think this way. Clearly there are many who just enjoy it for whatever reason.

Back when i was a naive teenager, yeah i kinda liked the idea of Sam/Jack, but as i grew up and matured (OMFG!) i realized what a load it really was.

[jdjunkie]

My issue's not with shippers (we're all free to love what we want to love and it makes the fandom world go round). My issue's with the ship itself, which I dislike hugely for what it did to a show and to characters I like a whoooole bunch.

[Aragon101]

My issue's not with shippers (we're all free to love what we want to love and it makes the fandom world go round). My issue's with the ship itself, which I dislike hugely for what it did to a show and to characters I like a whoooole bunch.

I agree, but what i was trying to say was that AT and RDA's opinions are typically put to the side in favor of the one true holy ship. Look at whatever happens when RDA goes to a con. He mocks the ship, yet it makes no difference.