Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Khentkawes]

Nice additions. This one made me laugh:

[*] one more, the evident inability for Sam to find anyone apart from Jack that doesn't die once they've got decent chemistry and have gotten to know each other, and the weak attempt with Pete, someone whom i've come to call "the embodiment of all that is weak in men"[/list]

LOL. So funny. I actually kinda like Pete (well... maybe more "feel sorry for," than actually "like"), but your title for him amuses me greatly.

[Aragon101]

Nice additions. This one made me laugh:



LOL. So funny. I actually kinda like Pete (well... maybe more "feel sorry for," than actually "like"), but your title for him amuses me greatly.

He's not a "bad" guy, just not the best or even really "good" given his actions in Chimera. But it's almost as if TPTB were trying to throw the fans for a loop going "SEE SEE!!! NO CURSE! HE LIVED! WE"RE MAKING SAM THREE DIMENSIONAL! NO NO NO, DON"T LOOK AT HER FORGIVING HIM STALKING HER WHICH IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER, JUST LOOK AND SEE THAT SHE CAN FIND SOMEONE OTHER THAN JACK!" and then promptly took every opportunity to show us that Sam still loves Sir.

Why? Why must you taint my beloved SG1 with such contrite and weak attempts at character dynamics? Please TPTB, please answer me!

[Callista]

Great job, Khent! I think that pretty much sums everything up for me. I don't have anything to add to your list.

[discodiva]

Okay, so this is my attempt at a master list summarizing as many major issues as I could recall (I gotta admit, it feels like I've just written some kind of Anti-Shippers manifesto ). I started with the major things that irritate me, then added some other specific issues that have come up at various points in this thread. Feel free to discuss, add other issues I didn't account for, etc. As I said before, some of these are more subjective than others.


{snippetity-doo-dah for length}

Music to my poor old jaded ears!...you have been greened accordingly!...


Deeds xx

[Frostfox]

Okay, so this is my attempt at a master list summarizing as many major issues as I could recall (I gotta admit, it feels like I've just written some kind of Anti-Shippers manifesto ). I started with the major things that irritate me, then added some other specific issues that have come up at various points in this thread. Feel free to discuss, add other issues I didn't account for, etc. As I said before, some of these are more subjective than others.

Khentkawes' personal list of dislikes in regards to TV romance and S/J ship

• Romantic scenes/undertones undermine and distract from the focus on the Team as a whole (and the awesomeness of said Team).

Thank you for putting this first.
This point is, and always will be, my main problem with Sam/Jack.

• Other characters are pushed to the background in favor of focusing on the romantic angle or pairing
  This is often a matter of blocking and camera angles, as much as actual screen time. In Evolution, the decision to focus the last moments of the episode only on Sam and Jack while the other characters are literally maneuvered out of the camera's focus would be one of the most obvious examples.
  
  
• Inconsistent characterization in order to further the romance
  
  
• Characters become defined by the romantic relationship. All character development becomes centered around the romance and the "pairing."
  Sam loses other storylines such as her connection to the Tok'ra/Jolinar/Martouf, her relationship with Jacob... her character development is centered around her love life and her attachment to Jack. At the same time, we see less emphasis on Jack's relationships with Teal'c and Daniel, as the focus is shifted primarily to his relationship with Sam. The same can be said of Sam to some extent, as her friendship with Daniel is ignored at the same time as her relationship with Jack becomes more prominent in the show.
  
  
• "Teenager-ish" or immature portrayal of characters and emotions
  The longer the romance is drawn out, the more it seems like a teenager-ish dilemma of "does he like me or doesn't he?" Neither character will take the initiative to assertively address their feelings, discuss them, and make a mature decision. Sam often appears needy ("Threads," her need for Jack's opinion on her engagement in "Affinity," etc.) while Jack appears passive, uncertain, and completely out of his depth (his lack of reaction in "Divide & Conquer," "Lost City," "Threads" when Sam brings up the subject of "feelings," etc.).
  
  
• Predictable and "flat" romantic stereotypes
  Due to the proliferation of TV shows which rely on a romance (or long-drawn out sexual tension) between the male and female leads, TV shows often reinforce the stereotype that an intelligent, attractive man and an intelligent, attractive woman cannot work together and maintain a purely platonic relationship. By pairing up Sam and Jack (the Alpha!male and Alpha!female of SG-1), the writers fell directly into this common and predictable TV trope. YMMV on this one, depending on how you feel about stereotypes.
  
  
• Cheesy "fate" or "destiny" cliches.
  By showing Sam and Jack together in multiple alternate realities, the writers imply that their romance was simply "meant to be," "destined," or "written in the stars." These romantic cliches do not allow for any serious consideration of the relationship, or any examination of why (if?) Sam's and Jack's personalities would suit a long-term romantic relationship.

Cheesy. Perfect word to describe the sorry, over blown mess.

• Uneven power dynamic
  Jack is Sam's superior officer. She is his subordinate. It is appropriate for her to differ to him in the field, and to respect his authority over her. This is a professional relationship, and (completely aside from any possible issues with the regulations) outsiders might perceive that Jack could abuse his authority over her. Professionally, they are not equals. That is not a slight against Sam, just a fact of the way the military works (or any hierarchical power structure). The possibility for abuse (and general squickiness) of this uneven power dynamic makes the relationship seem... odd. At least to some of us.
  
  
• Lack of romantic chemistry
  Chemistry is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but for those of us who don't see any romantic chemistry in the Sam/Jack relationship... all the yelling in the world won't convince us otherwise. However, examples include Jack's general uncomfortable looks and Sam's awkwardness when compared to Jack's easy rapport with Sara/Keri and Sam's much more relaxed and confident behavior around Narim/Martouf/Joe Faxton/Pete/Malcolm Barrett.

You can never make people see romantic chemistry, so relying heavily on it to carry your romance, without backing it up with good writing and convincing characterisation, is always a bad idea.

Other specific issues with Sam/Jack:

• Sam and Jack's "relationship" is simply drawn out for too long to be believable. If the writers were going to pursue a romantic storyline, they should have actually done something with it (in season 4, preferably) instead of drawing it out. It would have appeared more mature for the characters, and would have been a smarter writing move.
  
  
• Not-so-subtle romantic "hints" were shoe-horned into random episodes.
  Instead of being subtly incorporated into the overall storyline, the "romance" progressed in fits and starts, suddenly being thrust into various episodes ("Divide & Conquer," "Beneath the Surface," "Evolution," "Heroes," "Lost City," "Threads," etc.) with little to no build-up, and rarely contributing anything to the main storyline of the episode in question.

Oh, yes indeed. Let us ignore our A plot for a moment to go put on the tinkly piano music and soft focus lense to show yet another scene of Sam making cow eyes while Jack looks deeply uncomfortable. Jack/Sam in a nutshell.

• By focusing on the romance angle, the writers lost the chance to develop a unique and interesting mentoring relationship between Sam and Jack. In the earlier seasons, Jack was shown as mentoring Sam and using his experience to guide her throughout her career. These sorts of mentor/teacher relationships are rarely seen on TV between a male and female character (usually because the writers go with the more obvious romantic angle), and would have been both refreshingly new and interesting had it been allowed to develop.

It's really sad that they missed on that angle, one the USAF would have been behind too.

• By focusing on Sam's romance/love life, she is often reduced to the stereotypical role of "the Girl" instead of focusing on her brilliance, ingenuity, and general kick-butt abilities as a scientist and soldier.
  
  
• The apparent lack of common interests between Sam and Jack.
  Um... exactly what are they going to do together? Aside from their careers, they seem to have little in common. Sam's scientific research will always be a significant part of her life, which Jack seems mostly uninterested in sharing with her.

When SG1 started, Jack had his telescope on the roof, so conceivably, they could both have had an interest in astronomy. Of course, that was before Jack devolved into a running set of one liners and quips and his intelligence regressed too. Now, as written by TPTB? I cannot conceive of a more miss matched pair.

• Age difference
  Again, YMMV, but Jack is more often treated as a contemporary of Jacob... Sam's father. Which can be a bit squicky, for some viewers.

Bit squicky for me; 1952 to 1969? Imagine what Jack was up to in 1969 when his blushing bride was born? Or, rather, don't, if you want to keep hold of breakfast. TPTB didn't help by hanging a lantern on how alike Jack and Jacob were, everything from casting to attitude conspired to make them 'like brothers' in Jacob's words. And combined with the cliché of Mum dieing early, gave an unpalatable whiff of Sam as the proud owner of an Electra Complex. Not clever writing and totally unnecessary.

Thank you very much for a well considered and well written assessment of why Jack and Sam should be part of a Team, not in a relationship.

FF

[jckfan55]

He's not a "bad" guy, just not the best or even really "good" given his actions in Chimera. But it's almost as if TPTB were trying to throw the fans for a loop going "SEE SEE!!! NO CURSE! HE LIVED! WE"RE MAKING SAM THREE DIMENSIONAL! NO NO NO, DON"T LOOK AT HER FORGIVING HIM STALKING HER WHICH IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER, JUST LOOK AND SEE THAT SHE CAN FIND SOMEONE OTHER THAN JACK!" and then promptly took every opportunity to show us that Sam still loves Sir.

Why? Why must you taint my beloved SG1 with such contrite and weak attempts at character dynamics? Please TPTB, please answer me!

Making the characters act in ways you know they wouldn't to fit your story is one of my peeves. I have no problem with Sam being a bit clumsy with romance & being flustered by flattery early on. I can even buy that she hasn't had much of a love life w/ her devotion to work.

On the other hand, she has enough self respect to
1) not continue with a guy who has trust issues & stalked her (
2) not continue to pine over a guy there's no way she can have & embarrass herself.
That's not mentioning that I really don't see S/J working. I can't see them having anything in common away from work.

ETA: pete was such a straw man. Other than her having some fun going to movies and dancing there wasn't much there to make us believe she'd see him as a serious option. Yet they had him keep coming back. Better to let him go in his first episode. They didn't have to kill him. Sam should have kicked him to the curb)

[Frostfox]

That's pretty much my problems with the Ship, but i have a few addendums.

• The fact that it's so clearly and even jokingly implied that Jack is the only survivor of the "Black Widow" curse of Carter, hense meaning he must be special and their love is cosmic.
  
• The way the entire universe seems to want to get them together, even to the point where Kerry and Jacob advise them to go for it despite all the issues it would bring up.
  
  
• The writer's lack of romantic subtlety. Basically, they can't film a scene without clearly marking whether it's shippy or not by musical cues, soft lighting and such, they can't let the scene naturally seem shippy, they have to artificicially induce it.
  
• The lack of any confirmation one way or another for 15 bloody years.
• one more, the evident inability for Sam to find anyone apart from Jack that doesn't die once they've got decent chemistry and have gotten to know each other, and the weak attempt with Pete, someone whom i've come to call "the embodiment of all that is weak in men"

The 'whole universe wants them to get together' is the sort of stupidity which makes this relationship so laughable. Sam and Jack are no more special or magical than any other couple on the show, indeed they are less convincing than 99% of the other pairings. 'Written in the stars' is a hand wave for bad writing and childish indulgence.

Re. the bolded: exactly, if the relationship can't stand up without all those props, it should have been dropped. Real chemistry doesn't need special music or camera shots, it shines off the screen, even when actors are just sharing the same scene.

He's not a "bad" guy, just not the best or even really "good" given his actions in Chimera. But it's almost as if TPTB were trying to throw the fans for a loop going "SEE SEE!!! NO CURSE! HE LIVED! WE"RE MAKING SAM THREE DIMENSIONAL! NO NO NO, DON"T LOOK AT HER FORGIVING HIM STALKING HER WHICH IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER, JUST LOOK AND SEE THAT SHE CAN FIND SOMEONE OTHER THAN JACK!" and then promptly took every opportunity to show us that Sam still loves Sir.

Why? Why must you taint my beloved SG1 with such contrite and weak attempts at character dynamics? Please TPTB, please answer me!

This made me laugh so much I woke the cat, who now hates you. I can't believe TPTB didn't notice the damage they were doing to their characters with such hackneyed tripe, it was right out of a Mills and Boon or a trashy daytime TV soap.

Making the characters act in ways you know they wouldn't to fit your story is one of my peeves. I have no problem with Sam being a bit clumsy with romance & being flustered by flattery early on. I can even buy that she hasn't had much of a love life w/ her devotion to work.

On the other hand, she has enough self respect to
1) not continue with a guy who has trust issues & stalked her (
2) not continue to pine over a guy there's no way she can have & embarrass herself.
That's not mentioning that I really don't see S/J working. I can't see them having anything in common away from work.

ETA: pete was such a straw man. Other than her having some fun going to movies and dancing there wasn't much there to make us believe she'd see him as a serious option. Yet they had him keep coming back. Better to let him go in his first episode. They didn't have to kill him. Sam should have kicked him to the curb)

Exactly. Nothing wrong with Sam not being a genius at relationships but no way was she as emotionally retarded as TPTB made her. They did scenes which made me cringe for her.

For heavens sake, this is your lead actress, who has given you her skills and talent for eight long years. Why the hell dress her like a frumpy school teacher in comparison to the fresh-from-Jack's-bed girlfriend? What on earth were they thinking? And her stilted stuttering while Jack looks desperate for escape from this woman who's interrupted his weekend with the girlfriend. I was so embarrassed for the character and actress both. I still cringe thinking about the destruction of Sam's dignity for such an unconvincing and contrived scene. Utter rubbish and should never have been a part of SG1. And while Sam is being an idiot over her love life, Daniel is saving the universe. Talk about inequality of plot lines. Sam and Amanda both deserved more.

FF

[Aragon101]

The 'whole universe wants them to get together' is the sort of stupidity which makes this relationship so laughable. Sam and Jack are no more special or magical than any other couple on the show, indeed they are less convincing than 99% of the other pairings. 'Written in the stars' is a hand wave for bad writing and childish indulgence.

Re. the bolded: exactly, if the relationship can't stand up without all those props, it should have been dropped. Real chemistry doesn't need special music or camera shots, it shines off the screen, even when actors are just sharing the same scene.



This made me laugh so much I woke the cat, who now hates you. I can't believe TPTB didn't notice the damage they were doing to their characters with such hackneyed tripe, it was right out of a Mills and Boon or a trashy daytime TV soap.



Exactly. Nothing wrong with Sam not being a genius at relationships but no way was she as emotionally retarded as TPTB made her. They did scenes which made me cringe for her.
For heavens sake, this is your lead actress, who has given you her skills and talent for eight long years. Why the hell dress her like a frumpy school teacher in comparison to the fresh-from-Jack's-bed girlfriend? What on earth were they thinking? And her stilted stuttering while Jack looks desperate for escape from this woman who's interrupted his weekend with the girlfriend. I was so embarrassed for the character and actress both. I still cringe thinking about the destruction of Sam's dignity for such an unconvincing and contrived scene. Utter rubbish and should never have been a part of SG1. And while Sam is being an idiot over her love life, Daniel is saving the universe. Talk about inequality of plot lines. Sam and Amanda both deserved more.

FF

Oh... i'd SOOO green you if i could. I'm saving this post for reference along with the Master list

[Frostfox]

Oh... i'd SOOO green you if i could. I'm saving this post for reference along with the Master list

Laughs! I don't do it for the green! I post for the love of Sam and Jack and well written TV shows everywhere.

FF :nox

[Khentkawes]

Thank you for putting this first.
This point is, and always will be, my main problem with Sam/Jack.

Me too. I got hooked on SG-1 for the teamy awesomeness. So the negative effect on the team will always be my biggest complaint.

You can never make people see romantic chemistry, so relying heavily on it to carry your romance, without backing it up with good writing and convincing characterisation, is always a bad idea.

Exactly. Very well put. I know that the chemistry is enough for some fans to see ship... heck, Sam/Daniel shippers (do they still exist? I know there used to be a small contingent of them) have very little canon basis except chemistry. And that's fine for fanfic. If a fan sees chemistry between two characters and wants to explore that in fanfic, then I say more power to them! But you're right... chemistry alone isn't really enough for a fully developed romantic relationship to be shown on screen. Especially because it's so subjective. For S/J ship, I just never saw the romantic chemistry.

When SG1 started, Jack had his telescope on the roof, so conceivably, they could both have had an interest in astronomy. Of course, that was before Jack devolved into a running set of one liners and quips and his intelligence regressed too. Now, as written by TPTB? I cannot conceive of a more miss matched pair.

I thought of the telescope and possible mutual interest in astronomy. And I've heard shippers argue that Sam and Jack have more in common than it seems, partially because Jack is so much smarter than he makes himself out to be. But while I can see where that argument is coming from, I can't buy it. We're never really shown on screen that they have anything in common outside of work. In fact, we're shown the opposite. The writers chose to emphasize their differences. We don't see scenes where Sam and Jack are chatting about astronomy over lunch. So, while I can sort of see the argument... I still think it's reading something into the show that we are never actually shown.

Making the characters act in ways you know they wouldn't to fit your story is one of my peeves. I have no problem with Sam being a bit clumsy with romance & being flustered by flattery early on. I can even buy that she hasn't had much of a love life w/ her devotion to work.

On the other hand, she has enough self respect to
1) not continue with a guy who has trust issues & stalked her (
2) not continue to pine over a guy there's no way she can have & embarrass herself.
That's not mentioning that I really don't see S/J working. I can't see them having anything in common away from work.

This! Especially the bolded part. What the ship did to Sam never made any sense to me.

I'm saving this post for reference along with the Master list

Feel free to reuse the Master List with my blessing... just so long as I don't have to field any counter-arguments it might provoke.

[Killdeer]

Khentkawes, amazing post! Loads of GREEN, since I am unable to give you actual green at the moment.

[Frostfox]

Me too. I got hooked on SG-1 for the teamy awesomeness. So the negative effect on the team will always be my biggest complaint.

And it was a wholly unnecessary negative effect; better, more planned, more realistic writing would have made Jack/Sam much more palatable, possibly even believable.

Exactly. Very well put. I know that the chemistry is enough for some fans to see ship... heck, Sam/Daniel shippers (do they still exist? I know there used to be a small contingent of them) have very little canon basis except chemistry. And that's fine for fanfic. If a fan sees chemistry between two characters and wants to explore that in fanfic, then I say more power to them! But you're right... chemistry alone isn't really enough for a fully developed romantic relationship to be shown on screen. Especially because it's so subjective. For S/J ship, I just never saw the romantic chemistry.

I can see the friendship between RDA and AT. Not a problem. The friendships between all the cast still hold firm (did you see the look an AT's face when doing her scene with MS in Sanctuary? What a grin). Genuine affection and actor compatibility was crucial to SG1's success. But, partly due to RDA's conscious acting choices (particularly obvious from season 7 onwards, when, for me, it all started to go really wrong), a credible romantic plot thread needs more. It comes down to convincing writing, convince us that this pair are attracted to each other.

• Don't fall back on stupid things like 'written in the stars' ie. Showing them together in AU's - that frustrates fans of the relationship and bores the rest of your viewers. In particular, don't show your lovebirds snogging while the two other members of the team save the story and the planet. (Möbius)
  
• Don't isolate your romantic couple. In reality, no relationship is healthy if they cut off all friendships/relationships with everyone else and such relationships never end well. In TV land it is again a sign of poor, lazy writing and in the case of SG1, it cuts a team of four into a couple and those other two guys and divided their fanbase.
  
• Don't rely on props. If your romance can't survive without audio/visual clues and other special treatment, it's not as convincing as you think it is. And the bulk of your audience who are not invested in it, will go crawling up the walls or tune out every time you do it, waiting for the real plot of your TV SF show to come back.
  
• Don't forget you are writing SG1, not a daytime soap. If you feel the overwhelming need to write contrived and manipulative romance, perhaps you should get a job on a different sort of show? Stick to writing an action adventure show. If you absolutely must drop romance in, don't do it to the detriment of other aspects of the show, particularly not to the detriment of the team relationship which made your programme so popular in the first place.
  
• Don't treat your lead female character like a love struck teenage idiot. Don't make your lead male character into a joke. Your audience is more savvy than you think, they can appreciate subtlety and wit. They can also spot shoddy and manipulative writing. Treat your cast and audience with respect and they will reciprocate.

I thought of the telescope and possible mutual interest in astronomy. And I've heard shippers argue that Sam and Jack have more in common than it seems, partially because Jack is so much smarter than he makes himself out to be. But while I can see where that argument is coming from, I can't buy it. We're never really shown on screen that they have anything in common outside of work. In fact, we're shown the opposite. The writers chose to emphasize their differences. We don't see scenes where Sam and Jack are chatting about astronomy over lunch. So, while I can sort of see the argument... I still think it's reading something into the show that we are never actually shown.

I read a very good fanfic on LJ about this very thing (it was gen but showed a realistic and moving connection between Sam and Jack and the US space programme). But, as shown in canon on the show, sadly I think you are correct.

This! Especially the bolded part. What the ship did to Sam never made any sense to me.

Feel free to reuse the Master List with my blessing... just so long as I don't have to field any counter-arguments it might provoke.

Personally, I was more offended by the way they treated Sam/Amanda than Jack/RDA, even though they did neither character any favours and the relationship as a whole reflected badly on both of them. However, RDA is a long established actor, now retired. Amanda's a young actress and the business is notoriously difficult for actresses, particularly past the age of 30. I felt it more for Amanda, watching a character she had worked hard to bring into full three dimensional life from what started out as a mere cypher, warped from a genius astrophysicist and courageous military officer into a simpering school ma'am bothering her boss about 'feeeeeelings'. And I felt for the writers who had helped make Sam an interesting character over the years. How must it have felt to them, watching their creation recast as just the love interest of the lead? What a waste. Especially because, as soon as RDA left, TPTB had to confess to Amanda that they didn't know what to do with her character. Very sad.

FF

[jdjunkie]

Okay, so this is my attempt at a master list summarizing as many major issues as I could recall (I gotta admit, it feels like I've just written some kind of Anti-Shippers manifesto ). I started with the major things that irritate me, then added some other specific issues that have come up at various points in this thread. Feel free to discuss, add other issues I didn't account for, etc. As I said before, some of these are more subjective than others.

Khentkawes' personal list of dislikes in regards to TV romance and S/J ship

• Romantic scenes/undertones undermine and distract from the focus on the Team as a whole (and the awesomeness of said Team).
  
  
• Other characters are pushed to the background in favor of focusing on the romantic angle or pairing
  This is often a matter of blocking and camera angles, as much as actual screen time. In Evolution, the decision to focus the last moments of the episode only on Sam and Jack while the other characters are literally maneuvered out of the camera's focus would be one of the most obvious examples.
  
  
• Inconsistent characterization in order to further the romance
  
  
• Characters become defined by the romantic relationship. All character development becomes centered around the romance and the "pairing."
  Sam loses other storylines such as her connection to the Tok'ra/Jolinar/Martouf, her relationship with Jacob... her character development is centered around her love life and her attachment to Jack. At the same time, we see less emphasis on Jack's relationships with Teal'c and Daniel, as the focus is shifted primarily to his relationship with Sam. The same can be said of Sam to some extent, as her friendship with Daniel is ignored at the same time as her relationship with Jack becomes more prominent in the show.
  
  
• "Teenager-ish" or immature portrayal of characters and emotions
  The longer the romance is drawn out, the more it seems like a teenager-ish dilemma of "does he like me or doesn't he?" Neither character will take the initiative to assertively address their feelings, discuss them, and make a mature decision. Sam often appears needy ("Threads," her need for Jack's opinion on her engagement in "Affinity," etc.) while Jack appears passive, uncertain, and completely out of his depth (his lack of reaction in "Divide & Conquer," "Lost City," "Threads" when Sam brings up the subject of "feelings," etc.).
  
  
• Predictable and "flat" romantic stereotypes
  Due to the proliferation of TV shows which rely on a romance (or long-drawn out sexual tension) between the male and female leads, TV shows often reinforce the stereotype that an intelligent, attractive man and an intelligent, attractive woman cannot work together and maintain a purely platonic relationship. By pairing up Sam and Jack (the Alpha!male and Alpha!female of SG-1), the writers fell directly into this common and predictable TV trope. YMMV on this one, depending on how you feel about stereotypes.
  
  
• Cheesy "fate" or "destiny" cliches.
  By showing Sam and Jack together in multiple alternate realities, the writers imply that their romance was simply "meant to be," "destined," or "written in the stars." These romantic cliches do not allow for any serious consideration of the relationship, or any examination of why (if?) Sam's and Jack's personalities would suit a long-term romantic relationship
  
  
• Uneven power dynamic
  Jack is Sam's superior officer. She is his subordinate. It is appropriate for her to differ to him in the field, and to respect his authority over her. This is a professional relationship, and (completely aside from any possible issues with the regulations) outsiders might perceive that Jack could abuse his authority over her. Professionally, they are not equals. That is not a slight against Sam, just a fact of the way the military works (or any hierarchical power structure). The possibility for abuse (and general squickiness) of this uneven power dynamic makes the relationship seem... odd. At least to some of us.
  
  
• Lack of romantic chemistry
  Chemistry is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but for those of us who don't see any romantic chemistry in the Sam/Jack relationship... all the yelling in the world won't convince us otherwise. However, examples include Jack's general uncomfortable looks and Sam's awkwardness when compared to Jack's easy rapport with Sara/Keri and Sam's much more relaxed and confident behavior around Narim/Martouf/Joe Faxton/Pete/Malcolm Barrett.

Other specific issues with Sam/Jack:

• Sam and Jack's "relationship" is simply drawn out for too long to be believable. If the writers were going to pursue a romantic storyline, they should have actually done something with it (in season 4, preferably) instead of drawing it out. It would have appeared more mature for the characters, and would have been a smarter writing move.
  
  
• Not-so-subtle romantic "hints" were shoe-horned into random episodes.
  Instead of being subtly incorporated into the overall storyline, the "romance" progressed in fits and starts, suddenly being thrust into various episodes ("Divide & Conquer," "Beneath the Surface," "Evolution," "Heroes," "Lost City," "Threads," etc.) with little to no build-up, and rarely contributing anything to the main storyline of the episode in question.
  
  
• By focusing on the romance angle, the writers lost the chance to develop a unique and interesting mentoring relationship between Sam and Jack. In the earlier seasons, Jack was shown as mentoring Sam and using his experience to guide her throughout her career. These sorts of mentor/teacher relationships are rarely seen on TV between a male and female character (usually because the writers go with the more obvious romantic angle), and would have been both refreshingly new and interesting had it been allowed to develop.
  
  
• By focusing on Sam's romance/love life, she is often reduced to the stereotypical role of "the Girl" instead of focusing on her brilliance, ingenuity, and general kick-butt abilities as a scientist and soldier.
  
  
• The apparent lack of common interests between Sam and Jack.
  Um... exactly what are they going to do together? Aside from their careers, they seem to have little in common. Sam's scientific research will always be a significant part of her life, which Jack seems mostly uninterested in sharing with her.
  
  
• Age difference
  Again, YMMV, but Jack is more often treated as a contemporary of Jacob... Sam's father. Which can be a bit squicky, for some viewers.

Multiquote appears to have gone AWOL, so I'll just respond in a big lump. Heh, you Have been warned.

Firstly, massive props for this list. I think you've touched on points that every anti can wholeheartedly agree with.

My main gripe with Jack/Sam has always been that it was detrimental to the team dynamic. I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever to the contrary. The more they pushed the ship storyline (I refuse to call it an arc because that infers that some actual thought went into the planning of the story and there seems to have been a singular lack of planning involved) the more the intra-team dynamics suffered.

It's no coincidence that many team fans prefrerred the early seasons, before the Sam/Daniel, Sam/Teal'c, Jack/Daniel scenes took such a massive hit. Sam/Daniel was particularly badly hit (and yes there are still S/D shippers out there, I think!) mainly, I suspect, because Sam had more chemistry with Daniel and Daniel had more chemistry with Jack than Jack/Sam ever produced on screen.

Poor Sam lost every storyline she ever had; the Tok'ra connection (I'm sure I read somewhere that AT had to go and ASK for a storyline at one point, and the one they gave her was lost when Jack/Sam reared its ugly head). Martouf had to go, hence we lost the Jolinar throughline, and even Jacob paid the price so that we could have the slighly embarrassing Always scene, on top of the wholly embarrassing barbecue scene in one appalling ep. Janet died, and Sam lost a friend. All the way along, Sam was becoming more and more isloated and reliant on the ship storyline, to the point where TPTB didn't know what to do with her when Jack left. Ack with a side order of ack. *rages*

Ohhh, cheesy "destined to be". This. It was never a star-crossed romance, or one that was preordained. The glimpses of AU Jacks and Sams were disastrous for them and the world at large!

The lack of common interests between Jack and Sam is something I come back to a lot. What would they talk about? Really? I see them as having a good, solid working relationship, and a work-based friendship that doesn't extend out of work hours. I have people I work with whom I call friends, but rarely socialise with. That's how I see Jack and Sam.

But above all else, it's the lack of romantic chemistry and the power imbalance that totally squicks me. I mistakenly clicked on a Jack/Sam fic once (it was in a list and I wanted to read the one below that wasn't Jack/Sam) where Jack called her Carter in bed! And not by mistake, mind. He called her Carter!, like it was a pet name or something. Nonononononono. Just no. I don't see them being able or willing to cross that professional line.

So Khent ... brava.

So many reasons to say no to this ill-conceived ship.

[jckfan55]

Exactly. Nothing wrong with Sam not being a genius at relationships but no way was she as emotionally retarded as TPTB made her. They did scenes which made me cringe for her.
[
For heavens sake, this is your lead actress, who has given you her skills and talent for eight long years. Why the hell dress her like a frumpy school teacher in comparison to the fresh-from-Jack's-bed girlfriend? What on earth were they thinking? And her stilted stuttering while Jack looks desperate for escape from this woman who's interrupted his weekend with the girlfriend. I was so embarrassed for the character and actress both. I still cringe thinking about the destruction of Sam's dignity for such an unconvincing and contrived scene. Utter rubbish and should never have been a part of SG1. And while Sam is being an idiot over her love life, Daniel is saving the universe. Talk about inequality of plot lines. Sam and Amanda both deserved more.

FF

Exactly and well said. I cringed at that scene. I simply cannot watch that scene.
(Not sure if AT was expecting yet at the time, but even if that was the case, surely there was something more attractive they could have put her in.)

[jdjunkie]

Exactly and well said. I cringed at that scene. I simply cannot watch that scene.
(Not sure if AT was expecting yet at the time, but even if that was the case, surely there was something more attractive they could have put her in.)

It's unwatchable, isn't it? The scene leading up to the Burnt Steak, Burned Engagement moment is just as bad; Sam sitting in her car in Jack's driveway, acting like an awkward schoolgirl. Awful.

Sartorially speaking, the contrast between chic, fashionable Kerry and Sam, who has clearly shopped at LibrariansRUs (with apologies for appalling stereotyping of librarians everywhere) is so stark.

For heaven's sake, this woman blows up suns and can explain physics with doughnuts ... show her some respect, writers, please!