Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

And that's not counting the cliche 'last scene in the movie" confirmarion with Sam standing in the conference room of the Hammond looking down at earth, and Jack walking up and taking her hand showing off thier rings or something.

The problem with these scenes IMO is that they confirm, but they dont' really fit. we've gotten a ton of tiny hints, but nothing concrete. To sudden see them "married" is another of the standard HUGE steps forward TPTB have done with their relationship without showing us any build up between them. We're supposed to believe that they're having this relationship "off-screen" but because there's never been any confirmation "on-screen" it just comes out feeling pathetic.

My worst fear is that they give us a Jack/Sam scene as the final scene of the movie. That would be the final straw. And however they did it would be twee and toe-curling, if past experience is anything to go by. It somehow makes that whole storyline more important than anything else. And it so isn't. It would leave a very nasty aftertaste in the mouth.

One of the few things I liked about Unending was the fact that the final scene was the team going through the Gate, carrying on the adventure.

How sad would it be if the final scene anyone sees of SG-1 is Sam finally snaring her man. That's why I can happily live with my ten seasons of SG-1 in which I can confidently believe Jack and Sam didn't get together.

As to the deleted Trio scene ... I still maintain that if TPTB had wanted that scene in, it would have been in. The whole "lack of time" excuse was simply that, an excuse. They didn't go there just to string along part of the fanbase all over again. And yet again, Jack isn't mentioned by name. The coy ambiguousness is laughable.

Nope....
Deeds xx

Thought you might say that. And I wholeheartedly agree

And Killdeer, rearding your last spoilered sentence: I intend on doing the exact same thing.

[Frostfox]

So, just throwing this out there ... if they do Go There in the third movie (show that Jack and Sam are together, oh, did I really just write that?! ) how do you think they'll do it? And is there any way to make it remotely palatable to those of us who dislike it?

Uh, you had to ask, didn't you!

Given TPTB's love of not so subtle subtlety, i'm betting it'll either be tiny hints throughout the movie like each of them having matching rings, or maybe both claiming to have "flown in", just that god awful dreck that is "supposed" to be subtle, but stands out like a cow on a freeway

And that's not counting the cliche 'last scene in the movie" confirmarion with Sam standing in the conference room of the Hammond looking down at earth, and Jack walking up and taking her hand showing off thier rings or something.

I will heave if that's the final scene.

The problem with these scenes IMO is that they confirm, but they dont' really fit. we've gotten a ton of tiny hints, but nothing concrete. To sudden see them "married" is another of the standard HUGE steps forward TPTB have done with their relationship without showing us any build up between them. We're supposed to believe that they're having this relationship "off-screen" but because there's never been any confirmation "on-screen" it just comes out feeling pathetic.

I hadn't thought of that, you are quite correct, it will be a jarring lurch from what they showed in season ten of SG1 to suddenly having them married. Last we heard they were in separate galaxies.

Proof that TPTB do not know WTF they're doing with Sam/Jac? the infamous Trio scene. He ALMOST says "Carter admits she's having an af(Affair) Uhh in a relationship with O'neill.

and even more, the actual lines are so vague that it's ridiculous.

Keller: Anyone back home?
Sam: Uhhmm..
Keller Ah! Thought so. Spill it.
Sam: Well it's complicated.
Keller: Show me a relationship that isn't.
Sam: Yeah i know... He's in Washington, i'm here.
Keller: Long distance relationship huh?
Sam: Yeah... He's gonna retire soon so who knows?
Keller: Really? retire? Older man huh?
Sam: He's... not that much older.

Look at what Sam says, it's "complicated", they're 3 million light years apart so they're not exactly "together". He's goig to "retire soon" which implies that she's waiting for that... but why? What huge difference will O'Neill retiring make to thier relationship? Is he suddenly going to come to Atlantis to be with her? Is she going to give up the SGC to be with him in his cabin? I don't see her getting any joy out of this relationship, and even more, i don't even think they have what couldbe deemed a real two way relationship like TPTB want at this time. And this is Atlantis Season 4, only about a year before the third movie is supposed to be.

I never believed they had any intention of putting that scene in Atlantis. I might hate Sam/Jack, but I think TPTB teasing the fans of the relationship is reprehensible and mean spirited.
Even had they left that scene in, it was so vague, so stupidly coy, not mentioning Jack by name. For heavens sake, this is a supposed relationship between two of your main characters, try treating them with a bit of respect; not like school children, but like mature adults. Coy is not attractive in a grown woman.

I laughed my socks off at 'not much older' though; TPTB definition of 'not much older' and the rest of the world's definition is somewhat different.

With about as much finesse and style as a brick...

Nope....

Deeds xx

That is insulting to bricks!

Had to split my post, too long.
Home from the convention. Knackered as one is after sitting up too late at night, drinking rather a lot of beer and having too much fun (plus driving the length of the country). And we do it all again in a fortnight for Eastercon.

FF

[Frostfox]

Re the movie, should it ever get made -

Spoiler:

It's been described as Jack-centric and Sam-heavy. But not a word about those other two characters, other than that they'll be in it (which is more than I can say for Cam and Vala, and I like Cam and Vala). I've just gotten this feeling, and I could be very wrong, that it's going to be mostly focused on Jack and Sam with Daniel and Teal'c playing backup. How much of that focus on those two will have to do with their relationship I couldn't say, but still. I was never into SG-1 for the Jack & Sam show. YMMV of course, but all reasons I don't plan to watch the movie unless I read reviews from people I trust telling me that this wasn't the case.

If, still a very big if the film gets made and it's the Sam/Jack love hour, I for one won't be watching or buying it.
I don't think TPTB will be that stupid because I don't think we are the only ones who'd feel this way and I think they are aware of that. I know they have displayed a sad lack of subtlety in the past, I hope for the best while I fear for the worse.

My worst fear is that they give us a Jack/Sam scene as the final scene of the movie. That would be the final straw. And however they did it would be twee and toe-curling, if past experience is anything to go by. It somehow makes that whole storyline more important than anything else. And it so isn't. It would leave a very nasty aftertaste in the mouth.

One of the few things I liked about Unending was the fact that the final scene was the team going through the Gate, carrying on the adventure.

How sad would it be if the final scene anyone sees of SG-1 is Sam finally snaring her man. That's why I can happily live with my ten seasons of SG-1 in which I can confidently believe Jack and Sam didn't get together.

As to the deleted Trio scene ... I still maintain that if TPTB had wanted that scene in, it would have been in. The whole "lack of time" excuse was simply that, an excuse. They didn't go there just to string along part of the fanbase all over again. And yet again, Jack isn't mentioned by name. The coy ambiguousness is laughable.


Thought you might say that. And I wholeheartedly agree

And Killdeer, rearding your last spoilered sentence: I intend on doing the exact same thing.

I will really see red if Sam/Jack alone are either the first or last scene in what will most likely be the end of SG1. They are no more important than Teal'c and Daniel and every time TPTB forget that they insult the fanbase, the actors and diminish the magical team which gave them 10 years of SG1.

I agree with the consensus; that we are most likely to get coy references, something they think is clever but is really just another sad cliché. I'll guarantee that they won't please all the fans, what they should really concentrate on is writing a good SG1 story, which uses all the characters to their best, which doesn't try to slavishly recreate SG1 for half a decade ago (which is why ignoring season's 9 and 10 would be a mistake) and for heavens sake, no more time travel/AU/it was all a dream and no great big honking reset button.

FF

[Aragon101]

On a similar note, Star Trek TNG for me ended with "All Good Things"

I first saw that when i was but a young lad, i didn't really "get it" as i wasn't into the fandom or even writing at that time. Now that i look at it. I quite literally stop thinking for a second and go "Holy ****!" it's that good.

Yet what does All Good Things really show us? It shows us the dynamic the crews had over time, the struggles, and a brilliant science fiction story to boot! (Anti-Time!? I only recently really understood how awesome that idea is!)

Unending was an attempt at something like that methinks. and honestly, i could live with SG1 ending there. But no! They keep pushing the story and ruining what should have been a great ending. Neither DTD movie fared all that well, and the ridiculous reset buttons they use are just BLEH. All Good Things had a reset button for the problem, but the characters change tremendously and you see it at the end when the command staff is PLAYING CARDS and riding off into the sunset! How can you ask for a better finale after 2 hours of unbelievably good storytelling?

I truly think Stargate is already dead in the water, a third movie is kicking the tombstone of a dead horse since it's already been buried, especially if they pull that horse (Sam/Jack) out to give it one final thwack.

[Frostfox]

On a similar note, Star Trek TNG for me ended with "All Good Things"

I first saw that when i was but a young lad, i didn't really "get it" as i wasn't into the fandom or even writing at that time. Now that i look at it. I quite literally stop thinking for a second and go "Holy ****!" it's that good.

Yet what does All Good Things really show us? It shows us the dynamic the crews had over time, the struggles, and a brilliant science fiction story to boot! (Anti-Time!? I only recently really understood how awesome that idea is!)

Unending was an attempt at something like that methinks. and honestly, i could live with SG1 ending there. But no! They keep pushing the story and ruining what should have been a great ending. Neither DTD movie fared all that well, and the ridiculous reset buttons they use are just BLEH. All Good Things had a reset button for the problem, but the characters change tremendously and you see it at the end when the command staff is PLAYING CARDS and riding off into the sunset! How can you ask for a better finale after 2 hours of unbelievably good storytelling?

I truly think Stargate is already dead in the water, a third movie is kicking the tombstone of a dead horse since it's already been buried, especially if they pull that horse (Sam/Jack) out to give it one final thwack.

I don't think I've seen All Good Things, I never got into TNG, so I can't really comment.
With SG1, really it ended with Unending for me. Ark of Truth ties up some loose ends and Continuum looked very pretty but I could live without either of them.
All TV shows end and while it is the nature of all PTB to milk as much as they can from the franchise, diminishing returns, both financial and critical mean that SG1 is pretty much done. Fans are moving on to Supernatural or whatever is the TV show du jour, the recut of Children of the Gods sank into the bargain bin without a trace and the longer they leave it, the fewer fans remain and the notoriously fickle general public forget even faster. Had MGM/Bridge been able to churn out a couple of telefilms every 18 months, the franchise might have limped on a bit longer, but, really, it's only delaying the end and SG1, and with it, Sam and Jack's pathetic excuse for a romance, is over.

FF

[jckfan55]

Well, I'm not the biggest Carter fan. Of The Big Four (I'm really an original team fan at heart, although my Cam love is great and Vala love is ... limited) I found her to be the least engaging and interesting. Sometimes she actively irritated me. But I did enjoy her very much in the last two seasons. In fact, in Unending *shudder* she was pretty much my favourite character.

The fact that I enjoyed her most in the shipless final seasons is not coincidental. As kick-ass scientist and SG team member and loyal friend I liked her well enough.

I thought the Sam and Daniel dynamic was great and really lost out to Jack/Sam. So did Jack and Daniel, which, to me, ripped the heart and soul out of the series.

And on topic: still not liking Jack/Sam.

Well, Sam became tied for me with Jack as favorite character--just not as a pair. I think the problem with S/J is that they forgot that the TEAM was the special thing. Each brought something important to it. I don't think it was all S/J's fault--I also blame the tendency to split off the characters for ease of filming etc. But it's telling that when Jack left they didn't know what to do with Sam.
It's not like there weren't stories to tell. How would the team adapt to a new General? How would Sam handle command without her mentor there? (if they had kept her as SG1Leader ) TEam and new addition?

[Frostfox]

Well, Sam became tied for me with Jack as favorite character--just not as a pair. I think the problem with S/J is that they forgot that the TEAM was the special thing. Each brought something important to it. I don't think it was all S/J's fault--I also blame the tendency to split off the characters for ease of filming etc. But it's telling that when Jack left they didn't know what to do with Sam.
It's not like there weren't stories to tell. How would the team adapt to a new General? How would Sam handle command without her mentor there? (if they had kept her as SG1Leader ) TEam and new addition?

There were lots of plot and character faults which have absolutely nothing to do with the S/J mess.
Some of the problems were clearly not of TPTB's making (for example, scheduling issues due to actor leave/RDA's reduced hours/AT's pregnancy) But one definitely gets the feeling that TPTB didn't realise what gold they had with that magic team interaction; they couldn't see the damage they did when they paired of characters from the team into couples (Daniel/Vala is as destructive to the team as Sam/Jack).

Another point to consider: there is some sort of weirdly shallow TV perception that 'true love' is perfect, needs no justification, no reason, no logic, that as soon as they slap that moniker on it, it becomes beyond any need for good writing, internal logic, realistic characterisation.
And 'true love' is what TPTB wanted to imply with all those dull and repetitive AU's, "Look," they cry, "It's written in the stars, they are together in every universe!"

Reality and love in the real world is infinitely more complicated, important and nuanced than we could ever hope for in a TV SF show, but some effort towards believability would have been appreciated, the caricature of love painted by the Sam/Jack relationship is just too broad, too clumsy to take seriously.

The only reason I pay any mind to it at all is the damage done to the team and the other relationships on the show by TPTB's rather pathetic, and in later seasons, rather desperate, attempts to make it work.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Apparently, I don't log on to GW very often anymore... so despite my best intentions, I can't green anyone here, although I did try.

I wonder if we could possibly get a single post that brings all these issues up in a point form and succinct way. I'd love to have something i could just say "You wanna know why i feel thi way? Here." and give them the link to the post. It'd be like that itme i got a link to some psychological analysis on both characters and why it make sense that they waited 8 years. (my reply was less than agreeable, something along the lines of "don't use pseudo-science on fictional characters to disguise bad writing")

Any takers? That'd be a mission and a half, writing out in point form and without extreme prejudice all the wonderfully logical and sensible points we've made over time here

I actually tried to write a list like that recently, mostly for the exact reason you mention here. I wanted to be able to pull out my list and refer to it any time the conversation came up. I think I got to eight separate issues that I had with S/J. I could dig up my list and post it here if you'd like? Obviously my personal problems with S/J might differ from yours (or anyone's). Hmmmmm.... but now that you've mentioned it, I'm tempted to skim through this thread and see if I can come up with a decent summary of our complaints.

Maybe I have too much time on my hands.

And is there any way to make it remotely palatable to those of us who dislike it?

No. For me, I've just seen too much of it for too long. Too many little hints and shippy moments squashed into the series over a prolonged period of time. I've long since passed my endurance point. So personally, I don't think there's any way they could make it palatable to me. At best, if they included some very subtle moment (matching rings, or Sam and Jack arriving together) then maybe I could just cringe and ignore it.

Given TPTB's love of not so subtle subtlety,

Lol. Nice way to put it. Not-so-subtle subtlety... yeah, about as subtle as being hit over the head with a two-by-four.

And that's not counting the cliche 'last scene in the movie" confirmarion with Sam standing in the conference room of the Hammond looking down at earth, and Jack walking up and taking her hand showing off thier rings or something.

I have to admit... that's pretty much what I would expect to see. If the third movie is ever made, that is. Which I am NOT expecting to happen.

On a similar note, Star Trek TNG for me ended with "All Good Things"

I first saw that when i was but a young lad, i didn't really "get it" as i wasn't into the fandom or even writing at that time. Now that i look at it. I quite literally stop thinking for a second and go "Holy ****!" it's that good.

Yet what does All Good Things really show us? It shows us the dynamic the crews had over time, the struggles, and a brilliant science fiction story to boot! (Anti-Time!? I only recently really understood how awesome that idea is!)

Unending was an attempt at something like that methinks. and honestly, i could live with SG1 ending there. But no! They keep pushing the story and ruining what should have been a great ending. Neither DTD movie fared all that well, and the ridiculous reset buttons they use are just BLEH. All Good Things had a reset button for the problem, but the characters change tremendously and you see it at the end when the command staff is PLAYING CARDS and riding off into the sunset! How can you ask for a better finale after 2 hours of unbelievably good storytelling?

Oh, how I wish I could green you for the wonderful TNG love. Virtual green, will have to suffice. I have an unending love for ST:TNG, and although I enjoy the movies that came after it (in spite of the poorly written, sloppy, and self-indulgent bits), I completely agree that "All Good Things..." was as close to perfect as a final episode could be. It preserved everything that the series was about, including the camaraderie of the crew. I re-watched it a few months back and was amazed by how truly incredible it was.

I do think that SG-1's "Unending" was trying to recreate that special feeling. I'm one of the few who was satisfied with "Unending." It's not perfect. It's not as subtle as truly brilliant sci-fi should be. But I've come to realize that SG-1 was never subtle or sophisticated enough for me to consider it "brilliant sci-fi." It was fun, it was teamy, it was adventurous. And I think "Unending" caught enough of that spirit for me to be satisfied with it. It was good enough for the type of show that SG-1 was. Ark of Truth was needed for purely plot reasons. Continuum didn't really do anything for the franchise IMO, other than give those who didn't like the season 9-10 stuff (and the Ori) one last semi-old-school SG-1 story. But really, I do agree that SG-1 is done. That doesn't bother me. It would bother me more if they tried to drag out the same old stories with the same old writing issues. *cough* Sam/Jack *cough*

[Aragon101]

Apparently, I don't log on to GW very often anymore... *snip*

I'd LOVE to see that list, i have my own complaints, but what i'd love is a simple concise list i can just point to and go "There." whenever i get asked instead of having to contend with arguments.

And yes, All Good Things was honestly the best Sci-fi finale i've ever seen. a brilliantly made episode that shows off everything that made the show popular and lovable. But that' the thing about TNG, it was harder Sci-fi than SG1. SG1 was about the characters and the team, which was sacrificed in favor of the shipping which never went anywhere because of the intricacies of writing(i.e. can't change main cast, like what happened to Riker) or what happened to end us up with sam/jack.

WWJD in this case? I don't need to ask, here's a visual clue.



The saddest thing about this whole thing, is that the fans themselves have done a better job shipping Sam/Jack together in fanfiction. But i wil not, nay, CANNOT ever see those two characters together given what we've seen in Canon in a real romantic relationship that isn't the product of mind altering drugs or aliens. I actually think that's WHY there's so much fanfic on those two out there, because TPTB failed so miserably at it, that the fans who enjoy it for whatever reason (can be perfectly valid, i'm not debating that) feel that wishfulfillment need to see them together and have it done RIGHT.

But as far as SG1 in Canon? Sam/Jack is about as palatable as licking my car's exhaust pipe.

[Frostfox]

Apparently, I don't log on to GW very often anymore... so despite my best intentions, I can't green anyone here, although I did try.

I actually tried to write a list like that recently, mostly for the exact reason you mention here. I wanted to be able to pull out my list and refer to it any time the conversation came up. I think I got to eight separate issues that I had with S/J. I could dig up my list and post it here if you'd like? Obviously my personal problems with S/J might differ from yours (or anyone's). Hmmmmm.... but now that you've mentioned it, I'm tempted to skim through this thread and see if I can come up with a decent summary of our complaints.

Maybe I have too much time on my hands.

Nah, post it! It's fun. And a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, but I'm also interested in why as everyone's reasons, everyone's 'hot button' is different.

No. For me, I've just seen too much of it for too long. Too many little hints and shippy moments squashed into the series over a prolonged period of time. I've long since passed my endurance point. So personally, I don't think there's any way they could make it palatable to me. At best, if they included some very subtle moment (matching rings, or Sam and Jack arriving together) then maybe I could just cringe and ignore it.

jckfan55
How often have we heard that teamy friendship moments were cut b/c they didn't advance the story. But J/S uncomfortable looks did?

As jckfan55 points out, they were quick to dump character interaction in favour of action scenes but left in limp and gratuitous Sam love Sir scenes which didn't forward any important plot and made both characters look dreadful.

Lol. Nice way to put it. Not-so-subtle subtlety... yeah, about as subtle as being hit over the head with a two-by-four.

I have to admit... that's pretty much what I would expect to see. If the third movie is ever made, that is. Which I am NOT expecting to happen.

Oh, how I wish I could green you for the wonderful TNG love. Virtual green, will have to suffice. I have an unending love for ST:TNG, and although I enjoy the movies that came after it (in spite of the poorly written, sloppy, and self-indulgent bits), I completely agree that "All Good Things..." was as close to perfect as a final episode could be. It preserved everything that the series was about, including the camaraderie of the crew. I re-watched it a few months back and was amazed by how truly incredible it was.

I do think that SG-1's "Unending" was trying to recreate that special feeling. I'm one of the few who was satisfied with "Unending." It's not perfect. It's not as subtle as truly brilliant sci-fi should be. But I've come to realize that SG-1 was never subtle or sophisticated enough for me to consider it "brilliant sci-fi." It was fun, it was teamy, it was adventurous. And I think "Unending" caught enough of that spirit for me to be satisfied with it. It was good enough for the type of show that SG-1 was. Ark of Truth was needed for purely plot reasons. Continuum didn't really do anything for the franchise IMO, other than give those who didn't like the season 9-10 stuff (and the Ori) one last semi-old-school SG-1 story. But really, I do agree that SG-1 is done. That doesn't bother me. It would bother me more if they tried to drag out the same old stories with the same old writing issues. *cough* Sam/Jack *cough*

I'm in agreement over the bolded. I started watching SG1 for the slash, found I enjoyed all the core characters, including the strong supporting cast, ended up liking Sam more than Jack(!) and I enjoy the fandom. I've made some great friends and acquaintances here and on LJ.
But I won't pretend SG1 is something it isn't; it's not great TV drama, it's an enjoyable bit of SF escapism with a brilliant bit of casting and writing at the core which gave us a team we could all care about, no matter how silly or hackneyed the plot.

I'd LOVE to see that list, i have my own complaints, but what i'd love is a simple concise list i can just point to and go "There." whenever i get asked instead of having to contend with arguments.

And yes, All Good Things was honestly the best Sci-fi finale i've ever seen. a brilliantly made episode that shows off everything that made the show popular and lovable. But that' the thing about TNG, it was harder Sci-fi than SG1. SG1 was about the characters and the team, which was sacrificed in favor of the shipping which never went anywhere because of the intricacies of writing(i.e. can't change main cast, like what happened to Riker) or what happened to end us up with sam/jack.

WWJD in this case? I don't need to ask, here's a visual clue.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...palm_super.jpg

The saddest thing about this whole thing, is that the fans themselves have done a better job shipping Sam/Jack together in fanfiction. But i wil not, nay, CANNOT ever see those two characters together given what we've seen in Canon in a real romantic relationship that isn't the product of mind altering drugs or aliens. I actually think that's WHY there's so much fanfic on those two out there, because TPTB failed so miserably at it, that the fans who enjoy it for whatever reason (can be perfectly valid, i'm not debating that) feel that wishfulfillment need to see them together and have it done RIGHT.

But as far as SG1 in Canon? Sam/Jack is about as palatable as licking my car's exhaust pipe.

I've always held that fans, without the constraints of producing a 45 minute action/adventure TV show for a middle of the road, main-steam, white, straight, North American audience, are much better at producing convincing romance than the show writers.

I just get narked because the whole sorry mess was unnecessary; fans will see 'ship. Fans will read into TV shows what they want to see. If TPTB give them scenes or plot lines which help, great, fans will pick up on that and add it to the fanon for the show.

But, because writing a realistic romance is not one of this PTB's skills (let's be honest, even the romances which did work on the show were only briefly shown [Jack/Sara] or came to fruition in the first three seasons [Daniel/Shar'e] after season 3, the only way was downhill) the more they tried, the more of a train wreck it became. When they really started to force S/J down our throats in season seven, even RDA wouldn't play into it, it was when the relationship became heavy handed that the sour looks and lack of involvement from Jack became glaringly obvious and that had to be RDA. Which left poor Amanda twisting in the wind, trying to act against that brick wall and made Sam look like a right idiot at times, non of which were AT's fault but it wasn't just once, it was every time S/J raised it's ugly head and it was glaringly obvious.

You would have thought that TPTB would have noticed (it's their job, for heaven's sake) but they didn't seem to or if they did, they didn't care, perhaps that is where the over compensation of musical and visual clues came from? It got so bad, I'm surprised we didn't get little animated love hearts at the corner of the screen every time Sam gazes adoringly at the oblivious Jack.

But, it still didn't work; the basic premise of the relationship is flawed and unbelievable, no matter how you try to tart it up it remains flawed and unbelievable, nothing can change that.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I actually tried to write a list like that recently, mostly for the exact reason you mention here. I wanted to be able to pull out my list and refer to it any time the conversation came up. I think I got to eight separate issues that I had with S/J. I could dig up my list and post it here if you'd like? Obviously my personal problems with S/J might differ from yours (or anyone's). Hmmmmm.... but now that you've mentioned it, I'm tempted to skim through this thread and see if I can come up with a decent summary of our complaints.

Oh, I wish you would put that list together and post. Our thoughts are many and varied and it would be nice to hash out our thinkies.

The saddest thing about this whole thing, is that the fans themselves have done a better job shipping Sam/Jack together in fanfiction. But i wil not, nay, CANNOT ever see those two characters together given what we've seen in Canon in a real romantic relationship that isn't the product of mind altering drugs or aliens. I actually think that's WHY there's so much fanfic on those two out there, because TPTB failed so miserably at it, that the fans who enjoy it for whatever reason (can be perfectly valid, i'm not debating that) feel that wishfulfillment need to see them together and have it done RIGHT.

I think you may have a point there. The fans are great at wish fulfilment, whatever the pairing. The great thing about wish fulfilment in fanfic is I don't have to read it. When it's in your face on TV, it's a little harder to ignore.

[Aragon101]

I think you may have a point there. The fans are great at wish fulfilment, whatever the pairing. The great thing about wish fulfilment in fanfic is I don't have to read it. When it's in your face on TV, it's a little harder to ignore.

True enough, but i think that's part of the issue. People take fanfic to the level where they take a well written fanfic and begin to think of it as Canon. Especially with Sam/Jack because there's just so much of it.

I write Sam/John, but i never consider that when i'm watching the show

Also i don't see why a sci-fi adventure about a team can't have believable romance.it just needs to happen subtly and naturally.

[Frostfox]

Oh, I wish you would put that list together and post. Our thoughts are many and varied and it would be nice to hash out our thinkies.

I think you may have a point there. The fans are great at wish fulfilment, whatever the pairing. The great thing about wish fulfilment in fanfic is I don't have to read it. When it's in your face on TV, it's a little harder to ignore.

True enough, but i think that's part of the issue. People take fanfic to the level where they take a well written fanfic and begin to think of it as Canon. Especially with Sam/Jack because there's just so much of it.

I write Sam/John, but i never consider that when i'm watching the show

Also i don't see why a sci-fi adventure about a team can't have believable romance.it just needs to happen subtly and naturally.

Fanfic is wonderful!
I spent my quiet time at the weekend, when not socialising at the con, reading Paian's fabulous "Come What May". I have a hard drive full of brilliant stories.

I love the interwebs for making fanfic easier to get hold of, I'm old enough to remember the pre-internet days and paper fanzines and there is so much more to read out there than there was ten years ago (even if Sturgeon's Law still applies).

Re the bolded, that is the crux of the matter, relationships should aim to be subtle and natural, not a histrionic caricature of love which detracts from all the other aspects of SG1.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Okay, so this is my attempt at a master list summarizing as many major issues as I could recall (I gotta admit, it feels like I've just written some kind of Anti-Shippers manifesto ). I started with the major things that irritate me, then added some other specific issues that have come up at various points in this thread. Feel free to discuss, add other issues I didn't account for, etc. As I said before, some of these are more subjective than others.

Khentkawes' personal list of dislikes in regards to TV romance and S/J ship

• Romantic scenes/undertones undermine and distract from the focus on the Team as a whole (and the awesomeness of said Team).
  
  
• Other characters are pushed to the background in favor of focusing on the romantic angle or pairing
  This is often a matter of blocking and camera angles, as much as actual screen time. In Evolution, the decision to focus the last moments of the episode only on Sam and Jack while the other characters are literally maneuvered out of the camera's focus would be one of the most obvious examples.
  
  
• Inconsistent characterization in order to further the romance
  
  
• Characters become defined by the romantic relationship. All character development becomes centered around the romance and the "pairing."
  Sam loses other storylines such as her connection to the Tok'ra/Jolinar/Martouf, her relationship with Jacob... her character development is centered around her love life and her attachment to Jack. At the same time, we see less emphasis on Jack's relationships with Teal'c and Daniel, as the focus is shifted primarily to his relationship with Sam. The same can be said of Sam to some extent, as her friendship with Daniel is ignored at the same time as her relationship with Jack becomes more prominent in the show.
  
  
• "Teenager-ish" or immature portrayal of characters and emotions
  The longer the romance is drawn out, the more it seems like a teenager-ish dilemma of "does he like me or doesn't he?" Neither character will take the initiative to assertively address their feelings, discuss them, and make a mature decision. Sam often appears needy ("Threads," her need for Jack's opinion on her engagement in "Affinity," etc.) while Jack appears passive, uncertain, and completely out of his depth (his lack of reaction in "Divide & Conquer," "Lost City," "Threads" when Sam brings up the subject of "feelings," etc.).
  
  
• Predictable and "flat" romantic stereotypes
  Due to the proliferation of TV shows which rely on a romance (or long-drawn out sexual tension) between the male and female leads, TV shows often reinforce the stereotype that an intelligent, attractive man and an intelligent, attractive woman cannot work together and maintain a purely platonic relationship. By pairing up Sam and Jack (the Alpha!male and Alpha!female of SG-1), the writers fell directly into this common and predictable TV trope. YMMV on this one, depending on how you feel about stereotypes.
  
  
• Cheesy "fate" or "destiny" cliches.
  By showing Sam and Jack together in multiple alternate realities, the writers imply that their romance was simply "meant to be," "destined," or "written in the stars." These romantic cliches do not allow for any serious consideration of the relationship, or any examination of why (if?) Sam's and Jack's personalities would suit a long-term romantic relationship
  
  
• Uneven power dynamic
  Jack is Sam's superior officer. She is his subordinate. It is appropriate for her to differ to him in the field, and to respect his authority over her. This is a professional relationship, and (completely aside from any possible issues with the regulations) outsiders might perceive that Jack could abuse his authority over her. Professionally, they are not equals. That is not a slight against Sam, just a fact of the way the military works (or any hierarchical power structure). The possibility for abuse (and general squickiness) of this uneven power dynamic makes the relationship seem... odd. At least to some of us.
  
  
• Lack of romantic chemistry
  Chemistry is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but for those of us who don't see any romantic chemistry in the Sam/Jack relationship... all the yelling in the world won't convince us otherwise. However, examples include Jack's general uncomfortable looks and Sam's awkwardness when compared to Jack's easy rapport with Sara/Keri and Sam's much more relaxed and confident behavior around Narim/Martouf/Joe Faxton/Pete/Malcolm Barrett.

Other specific issues with Sam/Jack:

• Sam and Jack's "relationship" is simply drawn out for too long to be believable. If the writers were going to pursue a romantic storyline, they should have actually done something with it (in season 4, preferably) instead of drawing it out. It would have appeared more mature for the characters, and would have been a smarter writing move.
  
  
• Not-so-subtle romantic "hints" were shoe-horned into random episodes.
  Instead of being subtly incorporated into the overall storyline, the "romance" progressed in fits and starts, suddenly being thrust into various episodes ("Divide & Conquer," "Beneath the Surface," "Evolution," "Heroes," "Lost City," "Threads," etc.) with little to no build-up, and rarely contributing anything to the main storyline of the episode in question.
  
  
• By focusing on the romance angle, the writers lost the chance to develop a unique and interesting mentoring relationship between Sam and Jack. In the earlier seasons, Jack was shown as mentoring Sam and using his experience to guide her throughout her career. These sorts of mentor/teacher relationships are rarely seen on TV between a male and female character (usually because the writers go with the more obvious romantic angle), and would have been both refreshingly new and interesting had it been allowed to develop.
  
  
• By focusing on Sam's romance/love life, she is often reduced to the stereotypical role of "the Girl" instead of focusing on her brilliance, ingenuity, and general kick-butt abilities as a scientist and soldier.
  
  
• The apparent lack of common interests between Sam and Jack.
  Um... exactly what are they going to do together? Aside from their careers, they seem to have little in common. Sam's scientific research will always be a significant part of her life, which Jack seems mostly uninterested in sharing with her.
  
  
• Age difference
  Again, YMMV, but Jack is more often treated as a contemporary of Jacob... Sam's father. Which can be a bit squicky, for some viewers.

[Aragon101]

Okay, so this is my attempt at a master list summarizing as many major issues as I could recall (I gotta admit, it feels like I've just written some kind of Anti-Shippers manifesto ). I started with the major things that irritate me, then added some other specific issues that have come up at various points in this thread. Feel free to discuss, add other issues I didn't account for, etc. As I said before, some of these are more subjective than others.

Khentkawes' personal list of dislikes in regards to TV romance and S/J ship

*snip*

That's pretty much my problems with the Ship, but i have a few addendums.

• The fact that it's so clearly and even jokingly implied that Jack is the only survivor of the "Black Widow" curse of Carter, hense meaning he must be special and their love is cosmic.
  
• The way the entire universe seems to want to get them together, even to the point where Kerry and Jacob advise them to go for it despite all the issues it would bring up.
  
• The writer's lack of romantic subtlety. Basically, they can't film a scene without clearly marking whether it's shippy or not by musical cues, soft lighting and such, they can't let the scene naturally seem shippy, they have to artificicially induce it.
  
• The lack of any confirmation one way or another for 15 bloody years.
• one more, the evident inability for Sam to find anyone apart from Jack that doesn't die once they've got decent chemistry and have gotten to know each other, and the weak attempt with Pete, someone whom i've come to call "the embodiment of all that is weak in men"