Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

On a lighter note, here's a little crack!fic i wrote to take the piss out of the situation

True Love Warps Space and Time

i was grilled over an open flame by several shippers who (and a quote) said i was petty and had no right to write it

Wow. How insecure of them. I thought it was a hoot. Maybe a lack of perspective on their part? Taking it all too seriously?

As Aragon points out, Sam and Jack was their special baby, the golden couple, so much more important than any other relationship on the show, er... so special they ended up with several million light years between them but, hey, the third movie will have the long anticipated wedding on the gateramp, and the ending will be nine months later at the birth of the twins, Janet and Jacob. Just you wait.

FF

Oh, the third movie. Apart from the fact that I doubt it will ever get made, I still doubt we'll see them get together, romantic scene or no romantic scene. It'll be the same old same old, hinted-at nonsense. Oh and you got the baby names wrong, FF. One of them will be named Grace. *sigh*

[Frostfox]

Wow. How insecure of them. I thought it was a hoot. Maybe a lack of perspective on their part? Taking it all too seriously?

Fandom should be fun, life is too serious anyway and it's just a couple of characters in a TV show, at the end of the day.

Oh, the third movie. Apart from the fact that I doubt it will ever get made, I still doubt we'll see them get together, romantic scene or no romantic scene. It'll be the same old same old, hinted-at nonsense. Oh and you got the baby names wrong, FF. One of them will be named Grace. *sigh*

Ah, sorry, looks like Aragon was correct; triplets.

FF

[jckfan55]

There was plenty to please the fans of Sam and Jack in early seasons, without the character assassination and farce of later seasons. When they were writing Sam and Jack as team mates, it worked, it worked well, it was only when, as you say, they moved away from what they are good at writing, the humour and adventure and the friendship, that it all went horribly wrong.

And really S/J as team mates, student/mentor was so much more interesting.

Don't be daft! It was like a scab which was never allowed to heal, every time it seemed gone, TPTB had to knock the top off it and set it bleeding again.

FF

You have a way with the analogy FF.

[jdjunkie]

Ah, sorry, looks like Aragon was correct; triplets.

FF

Oh, brain bleach, stat! The thought of bay-bees from that relationship is ... unrealistic, at the very least. I see that idea as fanon wish-fulfilment. No wonder RDA quailed at the thought at the Aussie con!

I was wondering, we're here pointing out the Jack/Sam negatives (and they are manyfold) but are there ANY positives to be found, either for the characters, for the team or for the show itself? Thoughts?

[Aragon101]

Oh, brain bleach, stat! The thought of bay-bees from that relationship is ... unrealistic, at the very least. I see that idea as fanon wish-fulfilment. No wonder RDA quailed at the thought at the Aussie con!

I was wondering, we're here pointing out the Jack/Sam negatives (and they are manyfold) but are there ANY positives to be found, either for the characters, for the team or for the show itself? Thoughts?

Hmmm that's a good question. Basically any Jack/Sam scene is making Sam seem more like "the girl" than anything other scenes. not to mention the kind of humor they do so often, "isn't that that planet where the thing made Carter take off her..." and Sam interrupts?

See that's thats the thing, Whenever it's Jack/Sam, typically the humor is either Jack self-deprecating (Carter, all i understood was Matrix and those movies were terribly confusing" or it's making Sam the "Girl"

I totally prefered Daniel/Sam conversations like when Sam's picking apart "Signs". It's two friends chatting and having fun, it's not pointing out that the other has boobs.

Jack/Sam do have their good moments, but it's teamy moments like in upgrades and they're at O'Malleys

or Jack in FailSafe i think it was "Carter! i can see my house!"

One of my favorites is when Jack Jacob and Sam are arguing and Jacob goes

Jacob: I'm sorry Jack, i honestly didn't think we were going to make it.

Jack: Well maybe next time you'll think before you speak.

Jacob: And miss teh last chance i have to be right?

Jack: What!?

Sam: Welcome to my life.

Amanda Tapping was right in the way she asked to be written, write her as one of the guys, and she'll add the "femininity"

The problem i have with Jack/Sam is the forced Romance, not the friendship or mentor/student relationship.

[Callista]

I was wondering, we're here pointing out the Jack/Sam negatives (and they are manyfold) but are there ANY positives to be found, either for the characters, for the team or for the show itself? Thoughts?

There are many scenes between the two of them that I think are good. I like Jack's reaction to the little stick-figure picture of Sam that the girl in "Learning Curve" did. I like them together in "Solitudes". I like how Jack supports Sam when she figures out they left Daniel behind in "Fire and Water". I like Sam telling Jack about her time in Washington in "Secrets". But I don't perceive any of those as being romantic, even them snuggled up to keep warm in "Solitudes". I see all of those as friendship and team moments similar to other moments each character has had with other members of the team.

But, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive in the romantic relationship angle between them.

Certainly not from a team perspective because that's my main gripe with it: it did major damage to the team dynamic I love so much.

I can't think of anything positive in respect to either of their characters, because I find myself having to ignore the romantic relationship in order to maintain the original respect and affinity I had for both of them.

I suppose there may be a positive effect for the show as a whole if a lot of viewers continued to watch because they do like the relationship. However, I suspect that actually the opposite happened because I kind of think a big reason why many viewers so dislike seasons nine and ten is because the writers had so entwined Jack and Sam in this romance that they lost sight of all the things that made Sam a great character in the early years and so when Jack was gone, they had trouble writing anything for Sam on her own merit. By that point they'd killed off her connection to the Tok'ra by literally killing Jacob as well as pretty much forgetting that she'd ever been taken over by one and the Tok'ra's old enemy and reason for being on the show had been wiped out as well. Her connection with the Tollan got literally killed off as well back in season 5. I don't think they ever really showed her as the leader of the team in season 8, either...perhaps because they still wanted Jack to be shown as the main leader. (I can understand that from the point of view that you don't want your big name star to be relegated basically to a recurring role like Hammond had, but it didn't do Sam's character any favors by never actually showing her effectively leading the team off world when there was any sort of an emergency.) They'd also tied the Asgaard in with Jack even though I think Sam was actually more involved with helping them throughout the series, but by that point I think most people think of the Asgaard as more a Jack story-line than having to do with Sam.

So, while Daniel still had the ascended storyline and Teal'c still had the Jaffa freedom line, there wasn't really anything left for Sam. They didn't develop any special stories for Sam except for her romantic relationships for several years. All that's left for her at that point is working on her computer and fixing machines, and doing complicated things that are very important, but not really the kind of action or dialog that people want to watch on TV. And instead of developing a whole new story for Sam at that late date they just brought in a couple of new characters and continued to occasionally hint that maybe she was still seeing Jack even though he now lived a couple of thousand miles away....which I don't think really makes any viewer all that happy, shipper or not.

So, no, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive that the romantic relationship brought to the show unless there really are enough 'shippers' to keep it going. Of course, I recognize some fans of the relationship may consider the relationship to be the most positive thing about the show and I can completely understand that. It just depends on what a viewer is watching for in the first place.

[Frostfox]

And really S/J as team mates, student/mentor was so much more interesting.

You have a way with the analogy FF.

And mentor/student is a much, much more unusual and interesting relationship than the tired, limp old leading man/leading woman, seen on so, so many TV shows.

Oh, brain bleach, stat! The thought of bay-bees from that relationship is ... unrealistic, at the very least. I see that idea as fanon wish-fulfilment. No wonder RDA quailed at the thought at the Aussie con!

I was wondering, we're here pointing out the Jack/Sam negatives (and they are manyfold) but are there ANY positives to be found, either for the characters, for the team or for the show itself? Thoughts?

Oh, there's good Sam and Jack interaction throughout, it's just that TPTB obsession with their pet project means that some of them are sadly lost on me because of that insidious drip, drip, drip of the drippy, limp and soggy relationship they seemed so fond of.

That scene which I find so abhorrent in Heroes, should be about friendship, love and loss.
Sam's friendship (love, even) for Jack. Her friendship (love) for Janet. Her pain and loss and relief that Jack hasn't been killed too.

But, because of the way it was shot, the framing, the location (a private room), the music (slather those violins in syrup!), they turned that grief/relief into something nasty and inclusive. Made it about Sam and Sir, about how their love is everything, more important than Janet, more important than the girl Sam and Janet were supposedly raising (when Janet first adopted Cassie, it was made clear that Sam was helping bring her up, of course, that had to go out of the window when Sam and Sir became the only emotional relationship Sam is allowed), the world ceases to exist, it is all about Sam and Jack.

Which is why I find it an unhealthy relationship and poorly portrayed. Do these writers and directors have spouses? Friends? Have they ever lost anyone close? How on earth can they consider making 'Sam wuvs Sir' more important than 'Sam is incredibly relieved Jack is okay but they just lost Janet and Cassie is an orphan again'? And that is what the music, the visual cues and the directing is saying, forget the rest, this is a Sam and Jack moment, it is special.

And it taints the relationship and makes me hate the pair of them and I don't like TPTB making me feel like that over characters I like!

They should have shot that scene 'straight'. No soppy music, no hidden liaison, simple, straightforward friendship. Sam's grief over Janet spilling over into relief about Jack, pure and simple, it's not a moment for them to resurrect their pet romance again, it's a moment for genuine emotion and the sharing of pain. But that's not what we got. And it was another blow to the characters integrity and the show's good taste. If they had done that, guess what? The Jack/Sam fans would have seen it as a romantic moment. The rest of us would have not been feeling manipulated and saddened by the sorry affair.

Contrast it to the scene between Sam and Teal'c, when she is trying to find the words for Janet's memorial. The honesty of the emotion shines through. It is a scene about Sam and Teal'c and Janet, not Sam and the man she loves to the exclusion of all others, oh yes, and that other woman who died, but we don't care really because it wasn't Jack.

FF

[Frostfox]

And really S/J as team mates, student/mentor was so much more interesting.


You have a way with the analogy FF.

There are many scenes between the two of them that I think are good. I like Jack's reaction to the little stick-figure picture of Sam that the girl in "Learning Curve" did. I like them together in "Solitudes". I like how Jack supports Sam when she figures out they left Daniel behind in "Fire and Water". I like Sam telling Jack about her time in Washington in "Secrets". But I don't perceive any of those as being romantic, even them snuggled up to keep warm in "Solitudes". I see all of those as friendship and team moments similar to other moments each character has had with other members of the team.

But, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive in the romantic relationship angle between them.

Certainly not from a team perspective because that's my main gripe with it: it did major damage to the team dynamic I love so much.

I can't think of anything positive in respect to either of their characters, because I find myself having to ignore the romantic relationship in order to maintain the original respect and affinity I had for both of them.

I suppose there may be a positive effect for the show as a whole if a lot of viewers continued to watch because they do like the relationship. However, I suspect that actually the opposite happened because I kind of think a big reason why many viewers so dislike seasons nine and ten is because the writers had so entwined Jack and Sam in this romance that they lost sight of all the things that made Sam a great character in the early years and so when Jack was gone, they had trouble writing anything for Sam on her own merit. By that point they'd killed off her connection to the Tok'ra by literally killing Jacob as well as pretty much forgetting that she'd ever been taken over by one and the Tok'ra's old enemy and reason for being on the show had been wiped out as well. Her connection with the Tollan got literally killed off as well back in season 5. I don't think they ever really showed her as the leader of the team in season 8, either...perhaps because they still wanted Jack to be shown as the main leader. (I can understand that from the point of view that you don't want your big name star to be relegated basically to a recurring role like Hammond had, but it didn't do Sam's character any favors by never actually showing her effectively leading the team off world when there was any sort of an emergency.) They'd also tied the Asgaard in with Jack even though I think Sam was actually more involved with helping them throughout the series, but by that point I think most people think of the Asgaard as more a Jack story-line than having to do with Sam.

So, while Daniel still had the ascended storyline and Teal'c still had the Jaffa freedom line, there wasn't really anything left for Sam. They didn't develop any special stories for Sam except for her romantic relationships for several years. All that's left for her at that point is working on her computer and fixing machines, and doing complicated things that are very important, but not really the kind of action or dialog that people want to watch on TV. And instead of developing a whole new story for Sam at that late date they just brought in a couple of new characters and continued to occasionally hint that maybe she was still seeing Jack even though he now lived a couple of thousand miles away....which I don't think really makes any viewer all that happy, shipper or not.

So, no, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive that the romantic relationship brought to the show unless there really are enough 'shippers' to keep it going. Of course, I recognize some fans of the relationship may consider the relationship to be the most positive thing about the show and I can completely understand that. It just depends on what a viewer is watching for in the first place.

Wow. Just, wow.
What a beautifully articulated post, a concise distillation of all the reasons I post here. There's nothing I can add but thank you so very much.

FF

[Killdeer]

Amazing post Callista - I agree with everything. Here's virtual GREEN since I can't green you for real.

[Aragon101]

I wonder if we could possibly get a single post that brings all these issues up in a point form and succinct way. I'd love to have something i could just say "You wanna know why i feel thi way? Here." and give them the link to the post. It'd be like that itme i got a link to some psychological analysis on both characters and why it make sense that they waited 8 years. (my reply was less than agreeable, something along the lines of "don't use pseudo-science on fictional characters to disguise bad writing")

Any takers? That'd be a mission and a half, writing out in point form and without extreme prejudice all the wonderfully logical and sensible points we've made over time here

[Frostfox]

I wonder if we could possibly get a single post that brings all these issues up in a point form and succinct way. I'd love to have something i could just say "You wanna know why i feel thi way? Here." and give them the link to the post. It'd be like that itme i got a link to some psychological analysis on both characters and why it make sense that they waited 8 years. (my reply was less than agreeable, something along the lines of "don't use pseudo-science on fictional characters to disguise bad writing")

Any takers? That'd be a mission and a half, writing out in point form and without extreme prejudice all the wonderfully logical and sensible points we've made over time here

LOL at the bolded!

And I don't think Gateworld allows posts long enough to encompass all the ways Jack and Sam is a bad idea.
I can try to sum up MY opinion in one line?

"It's poorly written; it does not forward the plot, it does not add any convincing character motivation, it takes focus from the team: it detracts, distracts and disrupts rather than adding anything of importance to SG1."

Everything else I've ever written about the sorry mess is just an example of that.

FF

[jdjunkie]

There are many scenes between the two of them that I think are good. I like Jack's reaction to the little stick-figure picture of Sam that the girl in "Learning Curve" did. I like them together in "Solitudes". I like how Jack supports Sam when she figures out they left Daniel behind in "Fire and Water". I like Sam telling Jack about her time in Washington in "Secrets". But I don't perceive any of those as being romantic, even them snuggled up to keep warm in "Solitudes". I see all of those as friendship and team moments similar to other moments each character has had with other members of the team.

But, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive in the romantic relationship angle between them.

Certainly not from a team perspective because that's my main gripe with it: it did major damage to the team dynamic I love so much.

I can't think of anything positive in respect to either of their characters, because I find myself having to ignore the romantic relationship in order to maintain the original respect and affinity I had for both of them.

I suppose there may be a positive effect for the show as a whole if a lot of viewers continued to watch because they do like the relationship. However, I suspect that actually the opposite happened because I kind of think a big reason why many viewers so dislike seasons nine and ten is because the writers had so entwined Jack and Sam in this romance that they lost sight of all the things that made Sam a great character in the early years and so when Jack was gone, they had trouble writing anything for Sam on her own merit. By that point they'd killed off her connection to the Tok'ra by literally killing Jacob as well as pretty much forgetting that she'd ever been taken over by one and the Tok'ra's old enemy and reason for being on the show had been wiped out as well. Her connection with the Tollan got literally killed off as well back in season 5. I don't think they ever really showed her as the leader of the team in season 8, either...perhaps because they still wanted Jack to be shown as the main leader. (I can understand that from the point of view that you don't want your big name star to be relegated basically to a recurring role like Hammond had, but it didn't do Sam's character any favors by never actually showing her effectively leading the team off world when there was any sort of an emergency.) They'd also tied the Asgaard in with Jack even though I think Sam was actually more involved with helping them throughout the series, but by that point I think most people think of the Asgaard as more a Jack story-line than having to do with Sam.

So, while Daniel still had the ascended storyline and Teal'c still had the Jaffa freedom line, there wasn't really anything left for Sam. They didn't develop any special stories for Sam except for her romantic relationships for several years. All that's left for her at that point is working on her computer and fixing machines, and doing complicated things that are very important, but not really the kind of action or dialog that people want to watch on TV. And instead of developing a whole new story for Sam at that late date they just brought in a couple of new characters and continued to occasionally hint that maybe she was still seeing Jack even though he now lived a couple of thousand miles away....which I don't think really makes any viewer all that happy, shipper or not.

So, no, I'm afraid I can't think of anything positive that the romantic relationship brought to the show unless there really are enough 'shippers' to keep it going. Of course, I recognize some fans of the relationship may consider the relationship to be the most positive thing about the show and I can completely understand that. It just depends on what a viewer is watching for in the first place.

Beautifully put. Thanks for distilling it down so perfectly.

Contrast it to the scene between Sam and Teal'c, when she is trying to find the words for Janet's memorial. The honesty of the emotion shines through. It is a scene about Sam and Teal'c and Janet, not Sam and the man she loves to the exclusion of all others, oh yes, and that other woman who died, but we don't care really because it wasn't Jack.

FF

Which just goes to prove that the writers can write friendship well. And everyone, whatever their viewing persuasion, likes the team and the friendships therein. So, why didn't they concentrate on this popular and successful aspect of the show's personal dynamics, instead of shoe-horning in an unpalatable and divisive and unsuccessful love thang between Jack and Sam. Head meet desk.

I can try to sum up MY opinion in one line?

"It's poorly written; it does not forward the plot, it does not add any convincing character motivation, it takes focus from the team: it detracts, distracts and disrupts rather than adding anything of importance to SG1." FF

And that, my friend, should be this thread's mantra.

Be afraid: I've mastered the multi-quote. Heh.

[jckfan55]

"It's poorly written; it does not forward the plot, it does not add any convincing character motivation, it takes focus from the team: it detracts, distracts and disrupts rather than adding anything of importance to SG1."

FF

Well said. re: the highlighted part--how often have we heard that teamy friendship moments were cut b/c they didn't advance the story. But J/S uncomfortable looks did?

[Aragon101]

Well said. re: the highlighted part--how often have we heard that teamy friendship moments were cut b/c they didn't advance the story. But J/S uncomfortable looks did?

It's one of those things that make you want to grab one of TPTB and SHAKE THE BEJESUS OUT OF THEM

[Frostfox]

Well said. re: the highlighted part--how often have we heard that teamy friendship moments were cut b/c they didn't advance the story. But J/S uncomfortable looks did?

Exactly! But TPTB couldn't see their pet relationship as anything but fabulous and assumed everyone else felt the same. Wrong.

It's not that difficult, write convincing friendship between them and the fans of J/S would see it as 'shippy' anyway! And the rest of us wouldn't be offended. What's too lose?

FF (currently in a posh hotel in Winchester, sponging on their free WiFi, for an SF convention, so my posting will be a bit hit and miss over the weekend, there is beer to be drunk, programme items to be gone to and fans to talk to)