Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Fabulously intelligent and absorbing thread...keep it up guys!...

Deeds xx

Isn't it just!

FF

[Frostfox]

I just said this to Aragon and thought I would throw it out here to the floor.

I seem to see TPTB looking at the characters, in this case Sam and Jack, in isolation once they decided to pair them up (as opposed to seasons 1-3 when their touch was much lighter and more subtle). They stopped writing as many meaningful scenes between their chosen lovebirds & the other characters, as though the romance could only exist in a vacuum, if the characters stopped interacting with anyone else.
It isn't just in the scripts but in more subtle & damaging ways too, they stop blocking (framing in shot) Sam & Jack with the other characters; they have to be shot with each other if they share a scene.
It shrieks to me that TPTB are unsure about Sam/Jack, they are unwilling to let the proposed relationship stand without propping it up with every cinematic trick in an increasingly desperate attempt to support it, because, left to itself, the relationship isn't strong enough to carry the story & looked at too closely, with out the props of syrupy music & soft focus camera work, the crack really begin to show.

FF

[Callista]

I just said this to Aragon and thought I would throw it out here to the floor.

I seem to see TPTB looking at the characters, in this case Sam and Jack, in isolation once they decided to pair them up (as opposed to seasons 1-3 when their touch was much lighter and more subtle). They stopped writing as many meaningful scenes between their chosen lovebirds & the other characters, as though the romance could only exist in a vacuum, if the characters stopped interacting with anyone else.
It isn't just in the scripts but in more subtle & damaging ways too, they stop blocking (framing in shot) Sam & Jack with the other characters; they have to be shot with each other if they share a scene.
It shrieks to me that TPTB are unsure about Sam/Jack, they are unwilling to let the proposed relationship stand without propping it up with every cinematic trick in an increasingly desperate attempt to support it, because, left to itself, the relationship isn't strong enough to carry the story & looked at too closely, with out the props of syrupy music & soft focus camera work, the crack really begin to show.

FF

Ironically, this isolation is exactly what ruined the ship for me. Well, "ruined" isn't exactly the right word as I was never on-board with it to begin with, but I think I would have found it much more acceptable if both Jack and Sam (and Daniel and Vala, too, for that matter) could have been shown as being complete enough characters to be able to hold up more than one deep relationship at a time. We all know that was true at the beginning, as in the first three seasons or so, where the four main characters had wonderful and varied relationships with each of the other team members as well as some secondary characters on the side.

Many of the actual stories in the first couple of seasons I found completely ludicrous, but they were saved by how good the developing friendship bonds were. Conversely, there were episodes later on where I thought the story was good but the romantic relationship managed to push out those friendships to where I could have been watching just any old show on TV. The most "special" thing about SG-1 got downplayed to the point that by about season seven and on, I sometimes question whether or not some of them even like each other anymore. And even that would have actually been okay with me, too, if we had been shown some reason for the friendships to cool other than that two of the four (or five) have inexplicably become incapable of caring deeply about more than one person at a time. And then they can't even figure out how to make it work with that one other person when they used to be able to overcome staggering obstacles to accept and work with each other. (Daniel can believably forgive Teal'c for choosing Sha're to present for Goa'ulding and then killing her later and they can form a beautiful deep and honest friendship despite being so different from each other, but Sam and Jack can't simply talk things out and get one or the other of them transferred to another team?)

It's exactly the isolation of the romantic couple (pick whichever one you want) that made it fall for me. I don't know that it would have needed propping up if they'd just allowed it to flow naturally along with (but not in exclusion of) the other interpersonal relationships that were already so well established and interesting to watch. I might still not have liked it, but I would still be able to watch the rest of the show without constantly being reminded that this relationship is the one to watch!!! The rest are just filler!

I also wonder if part of the problem is that some writers and directors and others involved in the production seem to like it and others don't and so you get all these mixed messages depending on who's in charge for each episode. When JM had his thread here on GW, I asked him if anyone made notes to Joel Goldsmith about what kind of music should be added in order to convey what emotions were being stressed. He said that basically Mr. Goldsmith put on whatever he wanted with very little direction. I think the background music can be very powerful when forming a viewer's interpretation of a show and it makes me wonder if some of the scenes that weren't intended to be shippy at all were perceived that way just because they got the J/S shippy music treatment right at the very end by the music guy and no one involved in actually writing the story bothered to swap it with the kind of music that would have suggested whatever emotion was actually intended. And you can carry that on to the lighting guys and the editors or any number of other people involved in actually bringing the words on the paper all the way to the final product. So you end up with occasional episodes where apparently Jack and Sam are head over heels and miserable because they are denying themselves their true destinies intermixed with lots of other episodes where they're just trucking along being friends and coworkers just like they used to be and then the audience starts analyzing every little glance and touch and viewers manage to come up with drastically different interpretations of where the relationship actually stands...from 'they're secretly married and have adopted Cassie' all the way down to 'Huh? Jack and Sam like each other? Whu? Isn't he her boss? I thought she liked that Pete/Martouf/Narim/Orlin guy?'

[Frostfox]

Ironically, this isolation is exactly what ruined the ship for me. Well, "ruined" isn't exactly the right word as I was never on-board with it to begin with, but I think I would have found it much more acceptable if both Jack and Sam (and Daniel and Vala, too, for that matter) could have been shown as being complete enough characters to be able to hold up more than one deep relationship at a time. We all know that was true at the beginning, as in the first three seasons or so, where the four main characters had wonderful and varied relationships with each of the other team members as well as some secondary characters on the side.

This is why I find the relationships so damaging, this focus which distorts all the other relationships and diminishes them, for no good reason.

Many of the actual stories in the first couple of seasons I found completely ludicrous, but they were saved by how good the developing friendship bonds were. Conversely, there were episodes later on where I thought the story was good but the romantic relationship managed to push out those friendships to where I could have been watching just any old show on TV. The most "special" thing about SG-1 got downplayed to the point that by about season seven and on, I sometimes question whether or not some of them even like each other anymore. And even that would have actually been okay with me, too, if we had been shown some reason for the friendships to cool other than that two of the four (or five) have inexplicably become incapable of caring deeply about more than one person at a time. And then they can't even figure out how to make it work with that one other person when they used to be able to overcome staggering obstacles to accept and work with each other. (Daniel can believably forgive Teal'c for choosing Sha're to present for Goa'ulding and then killing her later and they can form a beautiful deep and honest friendship despite being so different from each other, but Sam and Jack can't simply talk things out and get one or the other of them transferred to another team?)

Exactly. I'm particularly with you on the bolded.
The team magic was sacrificed for no good reason, no good characterisation, no good plot.
It didn't do any of the characters any favours, particularly the ones embroiled in the sorry mess.

It's exactly the isolation of the romantic couple (pick whichever one you want) that made it fall for me. I don't know that it would have needed propping up if they'd just allowed it to flow naturally along with (but not in exclusion of) the other interpersonal relationships that were already so well established and interesting to watch. I might still not have liked it, but I would still be able to watch the rest of the show without constantly being reminded that this relationship is the one to watch!!! The rest are just filler!

I also wonder if part of the problem is that some writers and directors and others involved in the production seem to like it and others don't and so you get all these mixed messages depending on who's in charge for each episode. When JM had his thread here on GW, I asked him if anyone made notes to Joel Goldsmith about what kind of music should be added in order to convey what emotions were being stressed. He said that basically Mr. Goldsmith put on whatever he wanted with very little direction. I think the background music can be very powerful when forming a viewer's interpretation of a show and it makes me wonder if some of the scenes that weren't intended to be shippy at all were perceived that way just because they got the J/S shippy music treatment right at the very end by the music guy and no one involved in actually writing the story bothered to swap it with the kind of music that would have suggested whatever emotion was actually intended. And you can carry that on to the lighting guys and the editors or any number of other people involved in actually bringing the words on the paper all the way to the final product. So you end up with occasional episodes where apparently Jack and Sam are head over heels and miserable because they are denying themselves their true destinies intermixed with lots of other episodes where they're just trucking along being friends and coworkers just like they used to be and then the audience starts analyzing every little glance and touch and viewers manage to come up with drastically different interpretations of where the relationship actually stands...from 'they're secretly married and have adopted Cassie' all the way down to 'Huh? Jack and Sam like each other? Whu? Isn't he her boss? I thought she liked that Pete/Martouf/Narim/Orlin guy?'

The had no series 'bible', I think it was Joe M who confessed that. And, as Skydiver pointed out in a different thread, in later seasons TPTB all seemed so enamored with their own individual muses, any overall cohesion seemed to go out of the window. So there was no constancy, no rhythm and no overall plan, making the sorry mess even worse and even more jarring when it would suddenly intrude into an episode for no good reason. Plus you have RDA and the USAF against the romance so it gets twisted into more convoluted and unpleasant shapes by TPTB which do favour it. Just getting messier and messier and more and more ludicrous.
Non of which needed to happen, had they followed the rhythm of the first three seasons and allowed RDA and AT to carry it purely on subtle scenes and their own acting talents.
Pathetic.

FF

[jdjunkie]

They stopped writing as many meaningful scenes between their chosen lovebirds & the other characters, as though the romance could only exist in a vacuum, if the characters stopped interacting with anyone else.
It isn't just in the scripts but in more subtle & damaging ways too, they stop blocking (framing in shot) Sam & Jack with the other characters; they have to be shot with each other if they share a scene. FF

I think shooting them together to the exclusion of other characters did two things for me: It pointed up the fact that TPTB were having to force the "look, see the amazing chemistry" on us because, you know, obviously, we're not intelligent enough to figure out that we're supposed to believe they have feeeelings, and I never did see this much-vaunted chemistry anyway.

And secondly, the lack of Jack/Sam chemistry (romantic chemistry) pointed up the obvious chemistry the characters had with others ... Sam and Daniel; Jack and Teal'c, Jack and Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. I saw more sparks and fizzing in those dynamics than I EVER did with Jack/Sam.

So if the blocking was meant to reinforce the Jack/Sam message, it did the exact opposite. Sorry PTB, but epic fail, here.

[jckfan55]

I recently watched Death Knell. Most of the episode was the *team* worried about Sam (also Jacob & Hammond). Then at the end we get that moment of Sam resting her head on Jack's shoulder. I don't think that has to be shippy, but even AT said she didn't like that at first b/c it looked like Sam had been tough all the way through and then turned into "the girl" having to be comforted. But then she saw that it made sense that after all that & the fatigue etc. who wouldn't want a little comfort?

I can see it being one team mate comforting the other, but I wish it had been Teal'c or Daniel then. then we wouldn't have all this talk of it being a sign of twu luv. Actually the way Jack puts his arm around her seems teamy to me.

[Aragon101]

I recently watched Death Knell. Most of the episode was the *team* worried about Sam (also Jacob & Hammond). Then at the end we get that moment of Sam resting her head on Jack's shoulder. I don't think that has to be shippy, but even AT said she didn't like that at first b/c it looked like Sam had been tough all the way through and then turned into "the girl" having to be comforted. But then she saw that it made sense that after all that & the fatigue etc. who wouldn't want a little comfort?

I can see it being one team mate comforting the other, but I wish it had been Teal'c or Daniel then. then we wouldn't have all this talk of it being a sign of twu luv. Actually the way Jack puts his arm around her seems teamy to me.

In the commentary, they explain that it was a hard decision whether to add it or not, and that they looked to war time situations like Vietnam where Soldiers who'd been in the heat of combat for days on end would break mentally and start crying. I like the ending of Death Knell, it didn't seem shippy to me because it's not like they ran into each other's arms, it was just a moment between the two showing that worry that it had been so close. If Jack had been less hesitant, or Sam more "pleading" with wanting comfort, then yes, i wouldn't have liked it because it suddenly shows Sam dropping all her defenses for "Sir." It actually seemed liek a really angsty moment.

Now the fics that have spawned from that moment? Especially with Jack carrying Sam all the way back to the SGC? Bleh.

That's the problem with Sam/Jack. What SHOULD be a good moment of team drama gets focused in on their twu wuv which really came out of nothing. I'm going to have to rewatch it to see what Teal'c is doing because if i recall, he had a pretty concerned look as he stood guard.

By that same note, i could take half the Sam/John scenes there were in Atlantis including thier last one where they have that almost non-verbal argument about whether he should go rescue Teyla, and show how their friendship is really masking something more, but that's ludicrous, and i only see that as a personal fiction of mine, not canon.

[jdjunkie]

I, too, saw nothing shippy in Death Knell. Sam was exhausted and injured. The hug Jack gave her was definitely a teamy hug; comfort for a colleague. He just sort rested his arm across her shoulder. No sense of intimacy beyond the comforting hug. I can easily see him throwing an arm around Daniel's shoulder, or Teal'c's for that matter, in that situation. And that's the real test ... ship or no ship ... whether your can substitute one of the other characters into the scene.

You're so right that it would have been better if it had come from Teal'c or Daniel, though. (Teal'c would have bene especially nice to see, since their friendship is a joy to behold and there's a lovely chemistry there).

How sad that the ship tinged things in that way for AT and for us.

[Callista]

I recently watched Death Knell. Most of the episode was the *team* worried about Sam (also Jacob & Hammond). Then at the end we get that moment of Sam resting her head on Jack's shoulder. I don't think that has to be shippy, but even AT said she didn't like that at first b/c it looked like Sam had been tough all the way through and then turned into "the girl" having to be comforted. But then she saw that it made sense that after all that & the fatigue etc. who wouldn't want a little comfort?

I can see it being one team mate comforting the other, but I wish it had been Teal'c or Daniel then. then we wouldn't have all this talk of it being a sign of twu luv. Actually the way Jack puts his arm around her seems teamy to me.

That's an interesting point and I agree that I would have preferred one of the other guys to be the one she leaned against or at least that they were all there with her at the end instead of Jack beside her, Teal'c standing several feet away and Daniel elsewhere. I think what makes it look like she turns into "the girl" isn't even in this episode. I think what makes it suspect is in comparison to what happens just a few episodes earlier in "Evolution" where you have a very similar situation but this time it's Jack and Daniel. Jack puts his arm around Daniel, too, but it's to pick him up and help him walk...not because of needing comfort. And then they're immediately making jokes about the whole experience and we never see any sign at all of Daniel needing comfort after what he just went through. Now, I don't believe for a second that Daniel is somehow tougher than Sam (I'd rank them as equally tough, though in different ways), but the next thing we see is Daniel looking 100% other than being on crutches and saying "I'm fine" and wandering off with Teal'c, Jacob and Bra'tak thus brushing off the whole horrific experience as if nothing happened while Jack hangs back with Sam (who is bandaged up far more than her earlier injury would seem to merit). I don't recall exactly, but I think the words Jack and Sam say to each other are perfectly acceptable as a commanding officer and mentor complimenting his protege on a job well done, but yet the staging of the whole thing comes off as shippy because all the other guys have been literally moved out the door.

Now I know it's my own fault for perceiving that scene as well as the one in Death Knell in a shippy light and that logically I can explain it away, but I can't help but feel I've been emotionally manipulated a little into just such a perception. This time I actually think it's the make-up/costuming that makes a lot of the difference, because Sam is made to look all hurt and injured while Daniel looks like he might have just twisted his ankle or something so it does kind of make it look like she's somehow weaker and more in need of comfort than he is. (Which again, I don't believe for a second.)

I really think that in both episodes, the possible shippy interpretation of the final scene taints the whole episode for me. I try to ignore it and pretend that it's not there, and I think I could if each episode is taken on it's own, but when I watch the whole series and see those scenes in the context of how things used to be between all these characters it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

ETA: Dang! I've got to learn to type faster! Two posts got in there while I was typing this!!

[jdjunkie]

Callista I think you're on to something here.

That Gateroom scene in Evolution has always bugged me. We have Daniel, shot in the leg, tortured, dehydrated and who knows what else. Then he gets back to the SGC, is spotted on crutches, and, in the very next second, is gone! Now, either he's the fastest thing on two crutches in the history of ever, or they've simply got him out of the picture (and everyone else for that matter) to facilitate a moment alone between Jack and Sam. Shippy or not.

It is absolutely not your fault for perceiving things in a shippy light. You were being emotionally manipulated. The ship was manipulative, and it's another reason I didn't like.

[Frostfox]

I think shooting them together to the exclusion of other characters did two things for me: It pointed up the fact that TPTB were having to force the "look, see the amazing chemistry" on us because, you know, obviously, we're not intelligent enough to figure out that we're supposed to believe they have feeeelings, and I never did see this much-vaunted chemistry anyway.

And secondly, the lack of Jack/Sam chemistry (romantic chemistry) pointed up the obvious chemistry the characters had with others ... Sam and Daniel; Jack and Teal'c, Jack and Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. I saw more sparks and fizzing in those dynamics than I EVER did with Jack/Sam.

So if the blocking was meant to reinforce the Jack/Sam message, it did the exact opposite. Sorry PTB, but epic fail, here.

Yes, exactly.
When TPTB on DS9 wrote romances, they developed them, progressed them in a realistic, natural manner, they even ended some of them and the characters moved on. Some of the couples had more 'chemistry' than others to my eye but the relationships, even those which failed were interesting, added plot threads, showed us things about the characters and were never a detriment to the show, not forced in, not shown in isolation from the relationships the characters had with others.
I don't think I'm being picky wanting that from SG1 too?

I recently watched Death Knell. Most of the episode was the *team* worried about Sam (also Jacob & Hammond). Then at the end we get that moment of Sam resting her head on Jack's shoulder. I don't think that has to be shippy, but even AT said she didn't like that at first b/c it looked like Sam had been tough all the way through and then turned into "the girl" having to be comforted. But then she saw that it made sense that after all that & the fatigue etc. who wouldn't want a little comfort?

I can see it being one team mate comforting the other, but I wish it had been Teal'c or Daniel then. then we wouldn't have all this talk of it being a sign of twu luv. Actually the way Jack puts his arm around her seems teamy to me.

Jack putting his arm about Sam in Death Knell didn't bother me much. It wasn't shot soft focus, romantic; it was shot as it should have been, one warrior giving comfort to another.
I was way, way more annoyed that Jack and Teal'c had to kill the Krull Warrior. Why the hell couldn't Sam have been the one to get rid of it. Why does the woman have to be rescued by the big tough men? Why can't she be allowed to be the one to kill the monster?

In the commentary, they explain that it was a hard decision whether to add it or not, and that they looked to war time situations like Vietnam where Soldiers who'd been in the heat of combat for days on end would break mentally and start crying. I like the ending of Death Knell, it didn't seem shippy to me because it's not like they ran into each other's arms, it was just a moment between the two showing that worry that it had been so close. If Jack had been less hesitant, or Sam more "pleading" with wanting comfort, then yes, i wouldn't have liked it because it suddenly shows Sam dropping all her defenses for "Sir." It actually seemed liek a really angsty moment.

Now the fics that have spawned from that moment? Especially with Jack carrying Sam all the way back to the SGC? Bleh.

That's the problem with Sam/Jack. What SHOULD be a good moment of team drama gets focused in on their twu wuv which really came out of nothing. I'm going to have to rewatch it to see what Teal'c is doing because if i recall, he had a pretty concerned look as he stood guard.

By that same note, i could take half the Sam/John scenes there were in Atlantis including thier last one where they have that almost non-verbal argument about whether he should go rescue Teyla, and show how their friendship is really masking something more, but that's ludicrous, and i only see that as a personal fiction of mine, not canon.

There's reasons I don't waste my time on S/J fanfic.
Plus the sex is way to vanilla for my taste.

I, too, saw nothing shippy in Death Knell. Sam was exhausted and injured. The hug Jack gave her was definitely a teamy hug; comfort for a colleague. He just sort rested his arm across her shoulder. No sense of intimacy beyond the comforting hug. I can easily see him throwing an arm around Daniel's shoulder, or Teal'c's for that matter, in that situation. And that's the real test ... ship or no ship ... whether your can substitute one of the other characters into the scene.

You're so right that it would have been better if it had come from Teal'c or Daniel, though. (Teal'c would have bene especially nice to see, since their friendship is a joy to behold and there's a lovely chemistry there).

How sad that the ship tinged things in that way for AT and for us.

TPTB have no one to blame but themselves for us reacting so negatively. They polluted perfectly good story lines with stupid, unbelievable characterisation and miserable attempts at lukewarm romance alternating with overblown melodrama. And then then they compounded matters but not even doing anything with their precious romance. It fizzled out and the characters end up in different galaxies. TPTB didn't even give it a decent burial, which, of course, allows them to dig up the dead horse again for the 3rd film, in order to beat it one last time.

FF

[Frostfox]

That's an interesting point and I agree that I would have preferred one of the other guys to be the one she leaned against or at least that they were all there with her at the end instead of Jack beside her, Teal'c standing several feet away and Daniel elsewhere. I think what makes it look like she turns into "the girl" isn't even in this episode. I think what makes it suspect is in comparison to what happens just a few episodes earlier in "Evolution" where you have a very similar situation but this time it's Jack and Daniel. Jack puts his arm around Daniel, too, but it's to pick him up and help him walk...not because of needing comfort. And then they're immediately making jokes about the whole experience and we never see any sign at all of Daniel needing comfort after what he just went through. Now, I don't believe for a second that Daniel is somehow tougher than Sam (I'd rank them as equally tough, though in different ways), but the next thing we see is Daniel looking 100% other than being on crutches and saying "I'm fine" and wandering off with Teal'c, Jacob and Bra'tak thus brushing off the whole horrific experience as if nothing happened while Jack hangs back with Sam (who is bandaged up far more than her earlier injury would seem to merit). I don't recall exactly, but I think the words Jack and Sam say to each other are perfectly acceptable as a commanding officer and mentor complimenting his protege on a job well done, but yet the staging of the whole thing comes off as shippy because all the other guys have been literally moved out the door.

Now I know it's my own fault for perceiving that scene as well as the one in Death Knell in a shippy light and that logically I can explain it away, but I can't help but feel I've been emotionally manipulated a little into just such a perception. This time I actually think it's the make-up/costuming that makes a lot of the difference, because Sam is made to look all hurt and injured while Daniel looks like he might have just twisted his ankle or something so it does kind of make it look like she's somehow weaker and more in need of comfort than he is. (Which again, I don't believe for a second.)

I really think that in both episodes, the possible shippy interpretation of the final scene taints the whole episode for me. I try to ignore it and pretend that it's not there, and I think I could if each episode is taken on it's own, but when I watch the whole series and see those scenes in the context of how things used to be between all these characters it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

ETA: Dang! I've got to learn to type faster! Two posts got in there while I was typing this!!

Personally, I found having Jack and Teal'c kill the Krull Warrior was much more casting Sam as "the girl" than Jack providing a fellow warrior comfort. YMMV, obviously.

Evolution. Don't get me started on Evolution.
That manipulative garbage made me lose all respect for TPTB and still makes me see red.
Casting Sam as the poor ikkle delicate flower who needs Big Alpha Hero Jack is a disservice to both characters and the intelligence of their audience.
The scene which really sticks in my craw is where Big Alpha Hero Jack goes to gaze at the wonder which is Sam, to check that she will be all right with only the scant protection of her father, a Jedi, sorry, Jaffa Master and a 100+ warrior. This woman is a trained officer in the USAF. She has, for seven years, proved herself to be brilliant, resourceful, a warrior, an asset to the SG1 and never has been an ikkle wuv struck girly. And what does this say about Jack's faith in Jacob, Bra'tac and Teal'c? Of course, no matter how good they are as warriors, how well trained, how dedicated to the SG1 and it's allies, they are still not good enough to protect Jack's Woman from the big, nasty universe. And Jack has to leave this paragon of grace and beauty to go rescue that guy, the one who dies a lot, the one who is tearing him from his beloved by carelessly going into a dangerous country to retrieve an artifact for the SGC with no more back up than a fellow scientist. How inconvenient for Big Alpha Hero Jack and delicate ikkie girly Sam!
But TPTB will make up for it at the end of the show. When that man who got between our love birds and that big guy with the gold tattoo and whoever else might be in the scene are all dismissed so they can get another nice soft focus shot of delicate ikkle Sam (with her BIG BANDAGE so you don't forget she's had a boo-boo) and her hero gazing adoringly at each other.

Nasty, manipulative garbage, I know it when I see it.

Callista I think you're on to something here.

That Gateroom scene in Evolution has always bugged me. We have Daniel, shot in the leg, tortured, dehydrated and who knows what else. Then he gets back to the SGC, is spotted on crutches, and, in the very next second, is gone! Now, either he's the fastest thing on two crutches in the history of ever, or they've simply got him out of the picture (and everyone else for that matter) to facilitate a moment alone between Jack and Sam. Shippy or not.

It is absolutely not your fault for perceiving things in a shippy light. You were being emotionally manipulated. The ship was manipulative, and it's another reason I didn't like.

But the relationship is beautiful! It's written in the stars! I know it is, TPTB told showed us it was again and again? How can you deny its perfection and wonder? You must be a misanthrope with not concept of true love not to appreciate its glory.
Sorry, TPTB, some of use don't buy what your are selling and resent you shoehorning your idea of romance into SG1.

FF

[jckfan55]

I really think that in both episodes, the possible shippy interpretation of the final scene taints the whole episode for me. I try to ignore it and pretend that it's not there, and I think I could if each episode is taken on it's own, but when I watch the whole series and see those scenes in the context of how things used to be between all these characters it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at.

[jckfan55]

Yes, exactly.

I was way, way more annoyed that Jack and Teal'c had to kill the Krull Warrior. Why the hell couldn't Sam have been the one to get rid of it. Why does the woman have to be rescued by the big tough men? Why can't she be allowed to be the one to kill the monster?
FF

Me too. They had to put in that trite thing with the "monster" not really being dead. I would have loved for the missile to have worked and J & T find Sam sitting there waiting or better they run into her on her way back to the gate.

[Frostfox]

Me too. They had to put in that trite thing with the "monster" not really being dead. I would have loved for the missile to have worked and J & T find Sam sitting there waiting or better they run into her on her way back to the gate.

Oh! Wouldn't that have been more fun? She should have been sat there at the DHD waiting for them.

You are also right that it's cumulative drip, drip, drip which makes S/J so insidious and pervasive. Compounded by it never progressing, never going anywhere, just a pointless intrusion into story lines which don't need it or benefit from its inclusion.

FF