Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

I forget exactly the circumstances, but it was back before Crystal Skull came out. I think Sean was at an awards show and a reporter asked him about some rumor that he's going to be in Indiana Jones 4. Sean just got this "WTF?" look on his face and deadpans. "Yes! I'm the star you see!" or something to that same sarcastic effect and just has this really "What the hell are you on?" vibe about him. it was quite amusing.

Oh, I can hear Sean Connery saying that. He doesn't suffer fools gladly, what a daft question.

FF

[jdjunkie]

And the sad thing? They could have got just as much mileage, and much more coherent characterisation, if they had kept Sam and Jack as just part of that magical Team who all care about each other so much.
But, no, Sam and Jack have to be different, have to have that special bond (only found in cheap romances and desperate soap-operas), written in the stars, he cares about her more than he cares for Teal'c, more than he cares for Daniel. Because... um, drawing a blank here on the why they have this magical bond. FF

Also draws blank. And the reason for that is because there was no magical bond. At least, no magical bond that wasn't entirely manufactured and so poorly written that it had to be reinforced with doe eyes and shippy tinkly Piano Music o Doom.

It was ham-fisted in every possible way.

You have to ask yourself how convincing and natural a relationship is if its appearance on screen has to be reinforced with airy-fairy music and soft focus. "Heads-up audience, this scene is Sam and Jack and so, you know, star-crossed romance ahead ... cue piano."

I was pondering just this morning as I watched some Josh and Donna on West Wing (now there's a great ship; adult, funny, touching, believable, superbly written, unlike Jack/Sam in every possible way) if there was anything the writers could have done to make Jack/Sam palatable to me. And the answer is no, because the power dynamic squicks me out to the very max for starters. I could never get beyond Carter and Sir, and I don't believe they could either.

For me, it was doomed from its ill-conceived start.

[Frostfox]

Also draws blank. And the reason for that is because there was no magical bond. At least, no magical bond that wasn't entirely manufactured and so poorly written that it had to be reinforced with doe eyes and shippy tinkly Piano Music o Doom.

It was ham-fisted in every possible way.

You have to ask yourself how convincing and natural a relationship is if its appearance on screen has to be reinforced with airy-fairy music and soft focus. "Heads-up audience, this scene is Sam and Jack and so, you know, star-crossed romance ahead ... cue piano."

I was pondering just this morning as I watched some Josh and Donna on West Wing (now there's a great ship; adult, funny, touching, believable, superbly written, unlike Jack/Sam in every possible way) if there was anything the writers could have done to make Jack/Sam palatable to me. And the answer is no, because the power dynamic squicks me out to the very max for starters. I could never get beyond Carter and Sir, and I don't believe they could either.

For me, it was doomed from its ill-conceived start.

Josh and Donna never dominated West Wing, they never detracted from the rest of the show and the other characters. Their relationship was nuanced and subtle and well written, not words you could use to describe S/J, at least not with a straight face.

As you say, they had to telegraph S/J all the way down the line, once they took it from being subtle chemistry between both characters and actors and made it Big and Important. Because, it was so much more Big and Important than Sam's relationship with Daniel and Teal'c or Jack's relationship with Daniel and Teal'c. So out went gentle subtlety and in came the Shippy Hammer O' Doom, whacking the fans across the head with no mercy. Because it's so Big and Important, violins were drowned in syrup and tubs of vaseline were smeared across camera lenses.

But for all that effort, it didn't work, it wasn't convincing; TPTB still didn't have the courage to follow through with their convictions, so the relationship didn't go anywhere.
Did they retire Jack? No, mentioned in season 8 back in 2005, never carried through.
Did Jack or Sam ever have an intelligent, adult conversation about their much lauded 'relationship'? No, RDA and the USAF would have nixed it.
Did TPTB use the relationship to make a meaningful statement about the human condition? No, it's all coy, coded messages and high school angst. Grown adults in positions of authority acting like teenagers is neither attractive or interesting.
Did TPTB use the relationship to show the difficulties of the chain of command? No, they ignored it when it didn't serve their purpose and then trooped it out again when they wanted to elicit and emotional response from characters or the poor, long suffering audience.
Did they move the relationship forward when Jack left SG1? No, don't be silly, TPTB were too obsessed with stringing the poor fans of S/J along until the very last scene of SG1 ever.

I could go on but you get the picture? And I haven't even started on all the other reasons why the relationship was a bad idea (Jack being a contemporary of Jacob - even to the point of looking like him. Lack of any romantic chemistry. The power inequality between the characters. The sheer lack of joy the relationship seems to bring them - have you ever seen such a miserable pair in each others company? I know relationships can't be all hearts and flowers, but, for heavens sake, any relationship based solely on something/one you can't have, is doomed to failure, or at the very least, doomed to a one night stand and then getting on with your life with someone you have a modicum of chemistry with. Etc, etc, etc)

FF

[jckfan55]

You take a scene where there's a moment of noticing that a team mate is an attractive member of the opposite sex--which could be kind of fun as a once in a blue moon thing--and decide "cool, let's pair 'em off!" And then as you say handle it terribly, drown it in bad melodrama and harm both characters.

It's kind of like the way they handled "dumb Jack." His refusal to get names right etc, that was kind of funny so they then amped it up and we got "dumbJack." It's like they lost all subtlety over the years--probably with the loss of people like Glassner & Greenburg.

[Frostfox]

You take a scene where there's a moment of noticing that a team mate is an attractive member of the opposite sex--which could be kind of fun as a once in a blue moon thing--and decide "cool, let's pair 'em off!" And then as you say handle it terribly, drown it in bad melodrama and harm both characters.

Exactly, there is nothing wrong with playing about lightly like that, it's fun, it's harmless and adds a bit of colour to the show.
But, no, it all had to be Very Important and Written in the Stars.
And that damaged SG1 and did the characters no favours.

It's kind of like the way they handled "dumb Jack." His refusal to get names right etc, that was kind of funny so they then amped it up and we got "dumbJack." It's like they lost all subtlety over the years--probably with the loss of people like Glassner & Greenburg.

I don't want to rag on RDA, who is fabuous, but one does get the feeling, in later seasons, that the directors didn't reign in his natural goofy humour enough. And that writers were too keen to play on it rather than giving him more meaty stuff to work with (look at what he did with Abyss, when he was given the right material).
Again, it worked best when subtle.

FF

[Killdeer]

But, no, Sam and Jack have to be different, have to have that special bond (only found in cheap romances and desperate soap-operas), written in the stars, he cares about her more than he cares for Teal'c, more than he cares for Daniel. Because... um, drawing a blank here on the why they have this magical bond.
I never saw anything, in 10 years of SG1 to convince me this special bond, so far above and beyond what the Team shared, was credible, realistic or in character for either of them.

it didn't work, it wasn't convincing; TPTB still didn't have the courage to follow through with their convictions, so the relationship didn't go anywhere.
Did they retire Jack? No, mentioned in season 8 back in 2005, never carried through.
Did Jack or Sam ever have an intelligent, adult conversation about their much lauded 'relationship'? No, RDA and the USAF would have nixed it.
Did TPTB use the relationship to make a meaningful statement about the human condition? No, it's all coy, coded messages and high school angst. Grown adults in positions of authority acting like teenagers is neither attractive or interesting.
Did TPTB use the relationship to show the difficulties of the chain of command? No, they ignored it when it didn't serve their purpose and then trooped it out again when they wanted to elicit and emotional response from characters or the poor, long suffering audience.
Did they move the relationship forward when Jack left SG1? No, don't be silly, TPTB were too obsessed with stringing the poor fans of S/J along until the very last scene of SG1 ever.

I could go on but you get the picture? And I haven't even started on all the other reasons why the relationship was a bad idea (Jack being a contemporary of Jacob - even to the point of looking like him. Lack of any romantic chemistry. The power inequality between the characters. The sheer lack of joy the relationship seems to bring them - have you ever seen such a miserable pair in each others company? I know relationships can't be all hearts and flowers, but, for heavens sake, any relationship based solely on something/one you can't have, is doomed to failure, or at the very least, doomed to a one night stand and then getting on with your life with someone you have a modicum of chemistry with. Etc, etc, etc)

FF

As usual Frostfox you have hit the nail on the head. I absolutely agree.

I was pondering just this morning as I watched some Josh and Donna on West Wing (now there's a great ship; adult, funny, touching, believable, superbly written, unlike Jack/Sam in every possible way) if there was anything the writers could have done to make Jack/Sam palatable to me. And the answer is no, because the power dynamic squicks me out to the very max for starters. I could never get beyond Carter and Sir, and I don't believe they could either.

For me, it was doomed from its ill-conceived start.

Yes, the power dynamic makes it impossible for me to ever ship them, no matter how it was written. That it was written so badly only made it worse.

The Stargate writers tried a variety of ships on both shows, and IMO did all of them badly, but most of them I always felt that I could have supported if they had been written better. *John/Teyla shippers look at me in disbelief* Yes, even that one, if it had been written differently from the beginning. But not Jack/Sam - there is simply no way to get around the power dynamic of the older experienced colonel and the somewhat naive young captain.

I actually ran across a LJ conversation recently - the conversation was old (2004) - and one of the comments was talking about authority figures in relationships, and they mentioned Jack/Sam. I would link it here, but I'm not sure about how people feel about that. But anyway, to summarize, basically the argument was that Jack is an authority figure to Sam, wherein Sam expects Jack to tell her what to do, and this person didn't think (and I agree) that Sam would be able to shake that mindset in a relationship. Maybe that's just because I personally would not be able to - I don't compartmentalize that well - and I couldn't go from calling someone "Sir" and following orders at work to dealing with them as an equal at home. But...that's me.

[Frostfox]

Yes, the power dynamic makes it impossible for me to ever ship them. The Stargate writers tried a variety of ships on both shows, and did all of them badly, but most of them I always felt that I could have supported if they had been written better. *John/Teyla shippers look at me in disbelief* Yes, even that one, if it had been written differently from the beginning. But not Jack/Sam - there is simply no way to get around the power dynamic of the older experienced colonel and the somewhat naive young captain.

I actually ran across a LJ conversation recently - the conversation was old (2004) - and one of the comments was talking about authority figures in relationships, and they mentioned Jack/Sam. I would link it here, but I'm not sure about how people feel about that. But anyway, to summarize, basically the argument was that Jack is an authority figure to Sam, wherein Sam expects Jack to tell her what to do, and this person didn't think (and I agree) that Sam would be able to shake that mindset in a relationship. Maybe that's just because I personally would not be able to - I don't compartmentalize that well - and I couldn't go from calling someone "Sir" and following orders at work to dealing with them as an equal at home. But...that's me.

I, for one would be interested in that LJ conversation.

The power dynamic is just one of the myriad of reasons why S/J would be a train wreck, in the hands of these writers, who have never shown any sign of the deftness of touch such an emotionally charged situation would cause.
It's not a particular hot button with me, but, boy is it a big can of worms, never addressed in any way on the show.

Now, in a different TV show, not an action/adventure SF show, well, certainly not this SF show, the dynamic could be very interesting. I'm not in any way convinced that it would lead to a 'happily ever after' if such a thing could ever exist, but it could be interesting to explore.

With these writers and directors, it's just a mess, ignoring the real power dynamics if favour of the melodrama of forbidden love and school yard coyness, which is a disservice to both characters and the show.

FF

[jdjunkie]

But anyway, to summarize, basically the argument was that Jack is an authority figure to Sam, wherein Sam expects Jack to tell her what to do, and this person didn't think (and I agree) that Sam would be able to shake that mindset in a relationship. Maybe that's just because I personally would not be able to - I don't compartmentalize that well - and I couldn't go from calling someone "Sir" and following orders at work to dealing with them as an equal at home. But...that's me.

Absolutely. I cannot begin to believe that they would be able to leave the General and Lt Colonel at the door the minute they stepped out of their professional life and into their private one. It's simply not believable. They were never equals and that squicks me out in any relationship.

And, at the end of the day, if TPTB had really wanted this relationship to mean anything, they would have retired Jack from the miitary (he could have led the base as a civilian and still played an active role in the series) and left Sam in the field. Or, they could have given Sam an R&D role oustide the military and have Jack remain in the AF. But they didn't. They never had the courage of their convictions, and the characters suffered for it ... and we, the long-suffering, ship-inflicted audience ... suffered most of all.

[Frostfox]

Absolutely. I cannot begin to believe that they would be able to leave the General and Lt Colonel at the door the minute they stepped out of their professional life and into their private one. It's simply not believable. They were never equals and that squicks me out in any relationship.

And, at the end of the day, if TPTB had really wanted this relationship to mean anything, they would have retired Jack from the miitary (he could have led the base as a civilian and still played an active role in the series) and left Sam in the field. Or, they could have given Sam an R&D role oustide the military and have Jack remain in the AF. But they didn't. They never had the courage of their convictions, and the characters suffered for it ... and we, the long-suffering, ship-inflicted audience ... suffered most of all.

There were myriad ways around the issue, had TPTB the will to do it. But they stuck with the old bait and switch, teasing and dragging the sorry mess beyond all realistic comprehension, and, rather sadly, losing the respect of both pro and anti fans over the years.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Here's something to gladden the heart.

RDA was at a con in Australia this weekend, and, according to one report, was asked whether Sam and Jack should end up together. His answer was, according to the report poster, "along the lines of no, because it'd be against Air Force rules, and would so cheapen both their portrayal of the Air Force and the Air Force itself. Or something".

Good to hear.

I always believed he didn't buy into the ship, what with the whole looking uncomfortable and pained thing he had going on every time it raised its head.

Very good to hear. And not terribly surprising, to me. I never really thought that RDA seemed to embrace the ship angle either. Largely because I agree with you about the way he played the shippy scenes. So awkward.

Well, it's not like his opinion matters anymore since his not an EP anymore

I might agree with you, except that I've always gotten the impression that the producers gave RDA the freedom to do whatever he liked. Brad Wright has often spoken of how much he admires RDA. And RDA himself has said that he had a lot of freedom to shape his character. I doubt the producers would go against him. If anything, I think TPTB would bend over backwards to accommodate his wishes. That's just my opinion obviously, but it's not without reason.

I honestly believe the third movie is dead in the water.

I agree. For me, it's no big deal. *shrug* Time moves on and I'm satisfied with the end that SG-1 was given.

Time is passing; fans are fickle and move on. Yes, we diehards are still around, but the average fan is off with the latest new shiny.

I consider myself a die-hard fan... but that doesn't preclude the possibility of moving on either. I have moved on to other shows. SG-1 will probably always be one of a handful of shows that I go back to re-watch again and again. But that doesn't mean I'm not also enjoying my own shiny new toy. At heart, I'm a sci-fi fan. And I can still find other sci-fi to entertain me.

I still say there was simply no need for S/J except for those who are locked into the outdated notion that lead actor + lead actress=romance.

This. On my personal list of "Why I think S/J romance was a bad idea" that's #2 (#1 is the damage it did to the team dynamic). The cliched formula of leading guy + leading girl = story book romance... I can spot it a mile away. Usually, nothing good can come from it. And SG-1 is certainly not the only show to suffer from this outdated formula. I think it's one of the reasons I can't seem to give Warehouse 13 a decent chance. Every time I try to watch it, I cringe and foresee a train wreak coming. It feels like too many writers use this kind of romance as crutch. They think if they follow the formula, everything will be fine. But more often than not, the dynamic feels flat and it's far too predictable to spark my interest.

[Aragon101]

Very good to hear. And not terribly surprising, to me. I never really thought that RDA seemed to embrace the ship angle either. Largely because I agree with you about the way he played the shippy scenes. So awkward.



I might agree with you, except that I've always gotten the impression that the producers gave RDA the freedom to do whatever he liked. Brad Wright has often spoken of how much he admires RDA. And RDA himself has said that he had a lot of freedom to shape his character. I doubt the producers would go against him. If anything, I think TPTB would bend over backwards to accommodate his wishes. That's just my opinion obviously, but it's not without reason.



I agree. For me, it's no big deal. *shrug* Time moves on and I'm satisfied with the end that SG-1 was given.



I consider myself a die-hard fan... but that doesn't preclude the possibility of moving on either. I have moved on to other shows. SG-1 will probably always be one of a handful of shows that I go back to re-watch again and again. But that doesn't mean I'm not also enjoying my own shiny new toy. At heart, I'm a sci-fi fan. And I can still find other sci-fi to entertain me.



This. On my personal list of "Why I think S/J romance was a bad idea" that's #2 (#1 is the damage it did to the team dynamic). The cliched formula of leading guy + leading girl = story book romance... I can spot it a mile away. Usually, nothing good can come from it. And SG-1 is certainly not the only show to suffer from this outdated formula. I think it's one of the reasons I can't seem to give Warehouse 13 a decent chance. Every time I try to watch it, I cringe and foresee a train wreak coming. It feels like too many writers use this kind of romance as crutch. They think if they follow the formula, everything will be fine. But more often than not, the dynamic feels flat and it's far too predictable to spark my interest.

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with 2 lead characters having a romance, but when it gets to the point where the universe itself pushes them together, without any sort of honest examination of the issues at hand, then it gets pathetic.

Everybody and their mother's knew TPTB wanted to ship Sam and Jack right off hte bat. Just look at Broca Divide for pete's sake, There buf rot the grace of god? They had the subtlety of a hammer in showing us how their relationship developed.

That's just it. Sam and Jack's development was "uhh, other realities did it, why not us?"

Then again, look at a relationship like those in DS9, even though you had leads "Odo/Kira, Jadzia/Worf" and such, it never became more important than the story itself, and it was always played subtly.

In some ways, i see Sam/Jack trying to emulate Sheridan and Delenn, the whole "we're meant to be together" aspect, but it fails miserably because it never went anywhere. Sheridan and Delenn started out rocky, and built as they mutually helped each other durin ghte war with the Shadows. they also had plenty of smaller issues as well as the big one at Zha Ha Dum. but within 2 years, they'd developd a REAL relationship where they spend time together alone apart from work... yadda yadda...

Sam/Jack never had that. instead there were the every so often Jack asking Sam to go fishing with im and the shift into "TEENAGER" mode if TPTB had actually DONE something by Season 4, namely Divide and Conquer, i don't think it would have been NEARLY as bad. Of course, that's only until we get those longing looks across the briefing room, the awkward "you forgot your bra" jokes that you KNOW they'd do, and a dozen other immature and totally unrealistic moments that would have spawned.

A relationship between leads CAN work, as long as it's played subtly without a focus made on "OMG! They've got this awesome relationship!" which unfortunately Sheridan/Delenn became in B5s final year.

Unfortunately for TPTB, and fortunately for us, RDA has more than half a brain and the balls to stand against stupidity. if i ever meet him, i'm taking an anti-Sam/Jack picture for him to sign and see how he reacts It's probably have something like Sam and Jack giving each other awkward looks and just saying "No, we're just friends."

[Khentkawes]

I don't think I explained myself very well there, now that I look at it. When I say "leading guy" and "leading girl" I'm differentiating between the "leads" and the "main cast." I don't necessarily object to romances among the main cast of characters. Just when it's between the two leading characters. I'm not sure everyone makes the same distinction that I do, but basically, I think most shows (with the exception of true ensemble casts... which are rare in my viewing experience) favor one or two leads over the other characters. If you pair up those two leads, their romance will almost always dominate the show, largely because the leads already received more attention than the other characters. After all, they're the leads, it's their job to steal the spotlight. And once you pair them up, the romantic angle becomes the spotlight. I can see it with Sam and Jack (in which case, I think the 'ship itself pushed Sam into a bigger leading role). Or Harm and Mac from "JAG." Or Booth and Brennen from "Bones" (which I've barely watched, but I still see the same formula at work). Or Jack and Gwen from "Torchwood."

I never payed close attention to DS9 (sorry ) but from what I know of it, I wouldn't classify Worf, Jadzia, or Odo as leads. Sisko, definitely. For female lead... I don't know. Probably Kira. But I don't consider any of the pairings you listed to be a leading guy/leading lady issue. (I can't comment of Babylon 5 either, unfortunately).

I do agree with you that romances should work fine as long as they're subtle enough and they don't dominate or overshadow the rest of the story. But IMO, when the two leads are paired up, there is a much bigger chance that the romance will take over the story. Plus there's the predictability aspect. It's a cliche in TV that a man and a women who work closely together can't seem to stay just friends. And it's always the two characters who are portrayed as "most important" or most talented. It's like some sort of alpha-male/alpha-female stereotype that just seems overly simplistic to me. *shrug* I don't know. It's a bit hard for me to explain, I guess. That said, I know there are exceptions to every rule. Farscape's John/Aeyrn will always be an exception to this rule for me... but I think it worked because they were both allowed to have their own storylines and their own avenues for character development.

I also agree that part of the Sam/Jack problem was the teenager-ish portrayal of their feelings and the whole "my destiny hath brought me to you" feeling that it had at points. I think I'll have to re-work my personal "Why S/J romance was a bad idea" list to include that one somewhere.

[slurredspeech]

Farscape's John/Aeyrn will always be an exception to this rule for me... but I think it worked because they were both allowed to have their own storylines and their own avenues for character development.

See, this. Now, I never watched Farscape if you don't count maybes a few episodes (which I don't) but I do think that lead/lead (m/f;m/m;f/f) can work out quite nicely, for the pairing as well as for the show. The advantage - or disadvantage, as the case may be - of Sam and Jack, IMHO, wasn't that they were both leads. Mostly because it sounds as such a generalization, a broad argument, really. As I said, lead/lead can be done well - especially, but not exclusively, when the two people have amazing chemistry - if only it is done in a new, interesting way. Now, yes, pulling it off so that the characters also stand on their own and the relationship itself steals not the spotlight is certainly a tricky part, but not in the least an impossible task.
The up-side of this would be -- well, the two are already pertinent to the show, the viewers care about both (for the most part) and they have chemistry; let's use this.
The down side, as you mentioned -- how do we pull it off without it feeling 'tired and tried'; plus, well, the audience already cares about both of them, in their own right, so what would be the point of pairing them up with each other.

So, yeah. I partly agree and disagree with your theory. I honestly don't mind hooking up the leads, nor do I think it's a recipe for disaster. How interestingly it is done, how much it brings to the table - both for the characters and the show - is the real issue. IMHO, of course.


.... idek how I wound up here, dude. *shakes fist at Aragon*

[Aragon101]

See, this. Now, I never watched Farscape if you don't count maybes a few episode (which I don't) but I do think that lead/lead (m/f;m/m;f/f) can work out quite nicely, for the pairing as well as for the show. The advantage - or disadvantage, as the case may be - of Sam and Jack, IMHO, wasn't that they were both leads. Mostly because it sounds as such a generalization, a broad argument, really. As I said, lead/lead can be done well - especially, but not exclusively, when the two people have amazing chemistry - if only it is done in a new, interesting way. Now, yes, pulling it off so that the characters also stand on their own and the relationship itself steals not the spotlight is certainly a tricky part, but not in the least an impossible task.
The up-side of this would be -- well, the two are already pertinent to the show, the viewers care about both (for the most part) and they have chemistry; let's use this.
The down side, as you mentioned -- how do we pull it off without it feeling 'tired and tried'; plus, well, the audience already cares about both of them, in their own right, so what would be the point of pairing them up with each other.

So, yeah. I partly agree and disagree with your theory. I honestly don't mind hooking up the leads, nor do I think it's a recipe for disaster. How interestingly it is done, how much it brings to the table - both for the characters and the show - is the real issue. IMHO, of course.


.... idek how I wound up here, dude. *shakes fist at Aragon*

Jeepers, if you're going to stalk me, we might as well have dinner too I'll order a pizza and we can eat in that surveillance van outside where i'm sure you're sitting

I agree that lead/lead doesn't necessarily ruin the show. Bab5 did it and maintained a strong story by focusing on everyone else just as strongly. Look at Garibaldi's story for instance.

If SG1 had been more serialized, they COULD have made Sam/Jack work better if they had taken the plunge and tried to work it out with the Air Force and RDA amicably. But given that these guys don't seem to be able to write convincing romance, i'm highly doubtful of even that. So what we ended up with was something that really just detracts from the fun aspect of SG1 and the team, rather than add to the already interesting characters.

Just a hypothesis, but I think the reason why Sam/Jack is so popular is simply we got next to nothing on the ship itself beyond a glimpse or two of "where did that come from?", and the viewer filled in the blanks to their own tastes. So some people see Sam as a weepy "I need babies!" woman, while other see her as a strong willed woman who just wants companionship. Same with Jack, some see him serenading Sam with a guitar and the three amigos, others see him gruff and completely unemotional.

I guess you could say Sam/Jack inadvertantly walked assbackwards into a successful "Choose your own adventure" storyline

[Callista]

I think the biggest risk of hooking up the leads in an ensemble show is that it's really hard to do without cutting out the rest of the ensemble to some degree. That's the biggest gripe I have with Sam and Jack. The thing I really liked most about SG-1 was that there were four very different people working together and having deep, meaningful interactions with each other even though they often disagreed. And they all cared deeply about each other equally even though it was in slightly different ways. To me, S/J messed that up. (And yes, D/V messed that up too, but for me the damage was already long since done by that point.)

If there are two clear leads right from the beginning, it's different. Whether or not a viewer liked Scully and Mulder as a romantic couple, the relationship doesn't overshadow other relationships because they're the only main characters.

If it's two supporting characters in a relationship, it's different as well. Sam and Diane drove me up the wall because it was practically all they ever did, but I thought Frasier and Lilith were very interesting and cute because their relationship just went along in a natural progression without cutting out all the rest of the people's stories.

If it's two characters in an ensemble, but not clearly the leads like Tony and Ziva on NCIS, it's tricky but it might be possible if it doesn't get too heavy-handed. If it were Gibbs and Ziva I'd hate it (for many of the same reasons I don't like S/J). Tony and Ziva I'm waiting to see how it's handled....if they do continue down that road, hopefully they can keep up all the other relationships and not make it out like Tony and Ziva are the sun around which all the other character-planets orbit.

But Sam and Jack being together sometimes made me feel like Daniel and Teal'c were just there as supporting characters. It sometimes seemed like Sam's worry for Jack and Jack's worry for Sam outweighed Daniel's or Teal'c's as if Daniel and Teal'c weren't as close to them as they were to each other. I'm sure many viewers were fine with that, but I didn't like it. There are plenty of other shows featuring a romantic relationship from which to choose, but a true 'team' seems to be very rare and that's what drew me to SG-1. (And NCIS, too, for that matter.....we'll have to see how that turns out.)