Announcement

**Killdeer** · 03 June 2009, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

Lol. Sorry, I'm siding with jckfan here. Geek!Sam was waaaay OTT. She was funny for about five minutes. After that, not so much. Geek!Daniel wasn't much better. Though rude-retired-Jack also rubbed me the wrong way, and for me he was the worst of the bunch. Personally, I wanted to see them all kick the bucket.

Except maybe Teal'c.

Umm. Yeah. Me third. I haaaated Moebius, and not just 'cause of the awful S/J ship.

Sorry Frostfox!

I'd never thought of a S/D ship in Moebius, but that would have been an interesting idea. Not that I ship them, but it would have as you've said gotten rid of the whole "soulmates in every universe" thing.

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

And to continue this somewhat OT post

in response to Callista and NCIS

Spoiler:

To reply to OT:

Spoiler:

**Khentkawes** · 03 June 2009, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

Ha! RIR (Random Illogical Romance)! I love it!

I almost called it RSS for Random Silly Shippyness. But considering RSS is already used as an acronym, I figured RIR would work better.

Either way, I still want warnings.

**Frostfox** · 04 June 2009, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Callista View Post

I agree about S/D. I'm also not a fan of S/D, but I hate the romantic idea that each person has only one "soulmate" in the entire universe (or multi-verse in this case) who is right for them. That is so not true. People can be very well suited for each other but it's ridiculous to think that if those two people don't ever happen to meet each other they're doomed to "incompleteness" forever. That's kind of the idea I get from absolutely all the Sams and Jacks in all the universes always having to be together and if in any of those alternates they'd ever said that Sam could have been happy with someone else, she would be a much more realistic and sensible character. (I think Jack was happy with Sara, despite their problems, so it isn't as big a deal for his character.)

Romance, as seen in the mass media, is very much a construction of that media and not necessarily what previous generations meant by the word.
There is now evidence to show that peoples expectations out of relationships are being negatively influenced by media portrayals of ‘the perfect relationship’ and ‘the perfect partner’ to the point where their actual relationships suffer. This just can’t be a good thing for emotional health; mimicking what the media tells you to get out of a relationship, rather than working out for your self what satisfies and works for you.
The romance industry is just that, an industry, churning out purple prose for a homogenized mass market and making those who don’t have a conventional, monogamous, heterosexual relationship feel alienated, when in fact they are perfectly normal.
And people become fans of the romance as though it ‘The Romance’ is an actual entity; Sam and Jack are just characters forced to play out their roles, no matter how out of character, to forward the construct of The Romance. Someone wrote an interesting LJ article about this, I’ll see if I can find it.

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

Oh, hey, that would have worked for me! I don't ship anyone (including S/D), but considering how all alternate realities apparently must include ship

they could have tried something new for a change. If they'd gone the S/D route, that might have redeemed the episode for me. As it was... yeah, not my favorite episode ever.

I didn't like the implication that Jack and Sam were "destined to be together" because of all the alternate realities. I also agree with Callista that it's silly to think someone can only be happy with their "one true soul mate."

Lol. Sorry, I'm siding with jckfan here. Geek!Sam was waaaay OTT. She was funny for about five minutes. After that, not so much. Geek!Daniel wasn't much better. Though rude-retired-Jack also rubbed me the wrong way, and for me he was the worst of the bunch. Personally, I wanted to see them all kick the bucket.

Except maybe Teal'c.

Pout, still like Geek!Sam. But Möbius wasn’t one of my favourite episodes, too much wrong with the story structure and I was less than chuffed that our original team died in Egypt a couple of millennia ago. Another example of the writers thinking of a ‘cool’ concept, then not thinking through the full implications of what they had set in motion. And Jerk!Jack was a waste of space.

Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post

And to continue this somewhat OT post

in response to Callista and NCIS

Spoiler:

Fully on-topic comment: Still don't want S/J ship. I'd rather have all team, all the time.

RIR! Brilliant! I think that’s a good description of the sort of ‘bolted on’ romances which irritate the most, remembering back to our posts about romances in TV shows which weren’t divisive or detrimental to other aspects of the show in question.

FF

**Frostfox** · 04 June 2009, 09:32 AM

The thread search facility is my friend.

Discussion on surreallis's LJ about romance -
http://surreallis.livejournal.com/26...43198#t3843198
Third comment from splash_the_cat who is a S/J fan is the interesting one. And I think this is a universal fannish trait, not one specific to this pairing.

I love LJ, we get into such interesting conversations.

FF

**jckfan55** · 04 June 2009, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

To reply to OT:

Spoiler:

Love the RIR too! I just recently started watching NCIS in the reruns on cable and I agree with everything you say.

Spoiler:

**jckfan55** · 04 June 2009, 11:03 AM

We all seem to agree that Season 1-3 are basically ship-less.
So I have an idea. Maybe we could pick out our favorite Sam-Jack team episode or moment from each season?

**Callista** · 04 June 2009, 11:09 AM

Thanks for the link, Frostfox. The concept they're talking about with the "Romance" becoming the character and Sam and Jack being props for it is very interesting.

In that vein, I've been thinking about TPTB supposedly saying that they "didn't know what to do with Sam" in seasons 9 and 10. (I say "supposedly" because I don't have the actual quote, but I've seen it here on GW many, many times so I'm assuming it's real.) My take on that is that with Jack out of the picture for those two seasons (or at least off-screen), the "Romance" as a character is gone so Sam was left floundering. By the end of season 8, I feel that her character was so entrenched in S/J (or Sam's romantic relationships in general) that the other aspects that made her interesting in the early seasons (Tok'ra experience, her relationship with her father, her growth as a soldier and leader, her ability as a scientist, the natural wonder she had for the way the universe worked, etc.) had all been downplayed or lost. After Jack left it would have been strange to pick up those story lines again after all the time ignoring them so she was often left out or simply played a back-up part rather than a driving focus to the story. While I, personally, like Sam better in seasons 9 and 10 than I did in seasons 7 and 8 because she's back on her own and I don't have to look at her through the S/J lens anymore, I also was disappointed with her relegation to a person who can plug her giant laptop into any alien technology and fix things but doesn't really have much to say beyond that. For that, I very much blame (among other things) the manipulation of her character into what was too often little more than half of S/J that happened in the years prior to 9 and 10.

**Callista** · 04 June 2009, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

We all seem to agree that Season 1-3 are basically ship-less.
So I have an idea. Maybe we could pick out our favorite Sam-Jack team episode or moment from each season?

Um....let's see.

Well, "Solitudes" is the obvious one. I can't think of a whole other episode but some nice little moments that I liked were Sam biting Jack's hand, Sam and Jack hugging each other after they realized they left Daniel behind in 'Fire and Water', Sam and Jack at the party in 'Secrets', Sam and Jack and Teal'c trying different ways to switch bodies around in 'Holiday', the little girl drawing the same stick-figure of Sam that Sam drew in the picture she was showing Jack in 'Learning Curve' (they weren't together in that one but it's kind of cute that Jack knows Sam showed the girl how to draw that), both of them helping Daniel move his stuff in 'Forever in a Day' (even though Daniel and Sha're made that up), and Sam and Jack talking about Daniel being missing in 'Crystal Skull'.

**Killdeer** · 04 June 2009, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Callista View Post

In that vein, I've been thinking about TPTB supposedly saying that they "didn't know what to do with Sam" in seasons 9 and 10. (I say "supposedly" because I don't have the actual quote, but I've seen it here on GW many, many times so I'm assuming it's real.) My take on that is that with Jack out of the picture for those two seasons (or at least off-screen), the "Romance" as a character is gone so Sam was left floundering. By the end of season 8, I feel that her character was so entrenched in S/J (or Sam's romantic relationships in general) that the other aspects that made her interesting in the early seasons (Tok'ra experience, her relationship with her father, her growth as a soldier and leader, her ability as a scientist, the natural wonder she had for the way the universe worked, etc.) had all been downplayed or lost. After Jack left it would have been strange to pick up those story lines again after all the time ignoring them so she was often left out or simply played a back-up part rather than a driving focus to the story. While I, personally, like Sam better in seasons 9 and 10 than I did in seasons 7 and 8 because she's back on her own and I don't have to look at her through the S/J lens anymore, I also was disappointed with her relegation to a person who can plug her giant laptop into any alien technology and fix things but doesn't really have much to say beyond that. For that, I very much blame (among other things) the manipulation of her character into what was too often little more than half of S/J that happened in the years prior to 9 and 10.

May I just say - word.

Personally, I didn't care much for Sam in S9-10. While she is away from Jack, they seemed to have lost all sense of the character, and there were only two or three episodes where I enjoyed her. And I think a lot of it had to do with what you've said - they lost interest in all the things that made her such a strong interesting character to begin with. Hint - it was neither her romantic relationships or her ability to technobabble.

**Killdeer** · 04 June 2009, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

We all seem to agree that Season 1-3 are basically ship-less.
So I have an idea. Maybe we could pick out our favorite Sam-Jack team episode or moment from each season?

From S1-3?

Hmm. Well, for S1 - Solitudes, easily. I'm sure it's seen as a shippy episode, but I don't see it as such, and it's just a good strong episode with lot of good scenes between the two of them before it all got tainted with the whole "starcrossed romance" thing.

For S2 - Love the scene in The Serpent's Lair where she bites his hand, and later he tells her if anyone comes in "Bite 'em in the hand" and she grins.

I think Spirits had a good scene, where he cheers her for "First command".

Umm.

I'm drawing a blank for S3. I'll keep looking though!

Oh! Or I'll just steal Callista's!

She's right - there was some good scenes in Crystal Skull.

**Frostfox** · 05 June 2009, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Callista View Post

Thanks for the link, Frostfox. The concept they're talking about with the "Romance" becoming the character and Sam and Jack being props for it is very interesting.

In that vein, I've been thinking about TPTB supposedly saying that they "didn't know what to do with Sam" in seasons 9 and 10. (I say "supposedly" because I don't have the actual quote, but I've seen it here on GW many, many times so I'm assuming it's real.) My take on that is that with Jack out of the picture for those two seasons (or at least off-screen), the "Romance" as a character is gone so Sam was left floundering. By the end of season 8, I feel that her character was so entrenched in S/J (or Sam's romantic relationships in general) that the other aspects that made her interesting in the early seasons (Tok'ra experience, her relationship with her father, her growth as a soldier and leader, her ability as a scientist, the natural wonder she had for the way the universe worked, etc.) had all been downplayed or lost. After Jack left it would have been strange to pick up those story lines again after all the time ignoring them so she was often left out or simply played a back-up part rather than a driving focus to the story. While I, personally, like Sam better in seasons 9 and 10 than I did in seasons 7 and 8 because she's back on her own and I don't have to look at her through the S/J lens anymore, I also was disappointed with her relegation to a person who can plug her giant laptop into any alien technology and fix things but doesn't really have much to say beyond that. For that, I very much blame (among other things) the manipulation of her character into what was too often little more than half of S/J that happened in the years prior to 9 and 10.

The quote came from Amanda, back in October 2005.
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....ostcount=19639

It brings into focus the folly of only focusing your character as part of a couple, of linking in all their storylines to one other character. Not helped by killing off or removing of all Sam's other plotlines.

Originally posted by Callista View Post

Um....let's see.

Well, "Solitudes" is the obvious one. I can't think of a whole other episode but some nice little moments that I liked were Sam biting Jack's hand, Sam and Jack hugging each other after they realized they left Daniel behind in 'Fire and Water', Sam and Jack at the party in 'Secrets', Sam and Jack and Teal'c trying different ways to switch bodies around in 'Holiday', the little girl drawing the same stick-figure of Sam that Sam drew in the picture she was showing Jack in 'Learning Curve' (they weren't together in that one but it's kind of cute that Jack knows Sam showed the girl how to draw that), both of them helping Daniel move his stuff in 'Forever in a Day' (even though Daniel and Sha're made that up), and Sam and Jack talking about Daniel being missing in 'Crystal Skull'.

Oh, some lovely stuff there. When it was good, it was very, very good. I really liked Jack offering comfort when Sam was hypnotised in Fire and Water because, unlike the Heroes debacle, it was about Daniel and Team, not about the them.

Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

May I just say - word.

Personally, I didn't care much for Sam in S9-10. While she is away from Jack, they seemed to have lost all sense of the character, and there were only two or three episodes where I enjoyed her. And I think a lot of it had to do with what you've said - they lost interest in all the things that made her such a strong interesting character to begin with. Hint - it was neither her romantic relationships or her ability to technobabble.

Sad, but true.

FF

**jckfan55** · 05 June 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

... And I think a lot of it had to do with what you've said - they lost interest in all the things that made her such a strong interesting character to begin with. Hint - it was neither her romantic relationships or her ability to technobabble.

ITA. I was just so glad to see her NOT being shipped I took what I could get. I know AT joked in past seasons about being "exposition girl" or something like that, but in S9 &10 to a large extent she actually was. In the past they wrote even the techno scenes with some feeling or something. Certainly as *part* of the story--so everyone had a part to play in it.

Originally posted by Frostfox View Post

It brings into focus the folly of only focusing your character as part of a couple, of linking in all their storylines to one other character. Not helped by killing off or removing of all Sam's other plotlines.

And they were apparently unwilling or unable to come up with any new ones. Funny how those of us here can come up with a few without breaking a sweat.

Oh, some lovely stuff there. When it was good, it was very, very good. I really liked Jack offering comfort when Sam was hypnotised in Fire and Water because, unlike the Heroes debacle, it was about Daniel and Team, not about the them.

FF

True. And it was one of the early cases of the "we don't leave anyone behind" ethic.

For S3--
maybe in Fair Game when they're talking before jack goes in to negotiate.
"major, I don't like having them anywhere."

Or learning Curve when Jack finds her asleep at the work bench & when they're having the whole discussion about whether scientists are smarter than Jack. There's kind of a comfort level there.

**Frostfox** · 05 June 2009, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

ITA. I was just so glad to see her NOT being shipped I took what I could get. I know AT joked in past seasons about being "exposition girl" or something like that, but in S9 &10 to a large extent she actually was. In the past they wrote even the techno scenes with some feeling or something. Certainly as *part* of the story--so everyone had a part to play in it.

I didn't have a problem with 'exposition girl' as long as it wasn't the entirety of Sam's involvement with the show.

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

And they were apparently unwilling or unable to come up with any new ones. Funny how those of us here can come up with a few without breaking a sweat.

And what to do when Amanda was on maternity leave, and how to introduce Cam, and the list goes on.

Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post

True. And it was one of the early cases of the "we don't leave anyone behind" ethic.

For S3--
maybe in Fair Game when they're talking before jack goes in to negotiate.
"major, I don't like having them anywhere."

Or learning Curve when Jack finds her asleep at the work bench & when they're having the whole discussion about whether scientists are smarter than Jack. There's kind of a comfort level there.

See, the stuff was there, friendship and people who would die for each other, it was natural and unforced. Why ruin that just to pander to a stereotype of what a relationship is? And the gutting thing? They couldn't even churn out a believable romance, so they fractured their team, spoilt the vibe for nothing.

FF

**Killdeer** · 10 June 2009, 10:44 AM

Spoilers for Stargate Universe, from today's TVGuide Q&A (I've only included the relevant portion - it is on-topic):

Spoiler:

**Khentkawes** · 10 June 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Killdeer View Post

Spoilers for Stargate Universe, from today's TVGuide Q&A (I've only included the relevant portion - it is on-topic):

Spoiler:

They just can't quit, can they?
(to clarify, by "they" I mean the people conducting such interviews and providing such answers in order to string this along until the end of time)

Spoiler:

Announcement

Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment