Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jdjunkie]

And the creepy-alien-memory thing...you're talking about "Beneath the Surface", right? Because that was just... dumb. If I really needed to be convinced that this relationship was stupid, Jack's "I remember feeling feelings" line would do it. I also have a problem with the implication that even when they remember nothing about themselves or each other, they are still attracted to each other. That implies to me that the primary attraction between them is physical and not based on their personalities, their characters, or who they really are. And if it's all just physical lust, then fine. Get it out and move on. Because I don't believe that physical attraction is an adequate basis for a long-term relationship. So, for me, Beneath the Surface proves that their relationship has no basis beyond physical attraction. Odd that a moment that was meant to convince the audience of ship, actually had the opposite effect on me.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm quite willing to believe there was physical attraction there but I'll never be convinced it went deeper, and certainly not deep enough for any kind of sustainable long-term relationship. It would have been stultifying and unsatisfying beyond the physical and boring for both of them. It's anybody's guess who would have bailed out first. My money's on Sam, if I had to choose.

The ep obviously had the same effect on me that it had on you. Probably not quite what they were trying to achieve.

[Frostfox]

That's probably true. Although, I wish the Air Force influence would have continued to prevent it. I didn't think the drugged chick thing was cool. But I can accept it as the neanderthal, pure-instinct thing. So it doesn't bother me, I just don't actively like it, because I think it was kinda silly.

And the creepy-alien-memory thing...you're talking about "Beneath the Surface", right? Because that was just... dumb. If I really needed to be convinced that this relationship was stupid, Jack's "I remember feeling feelings" line would do it. I also have a problem with the implication that even when they remember nothing about themselves or each other, they are still attracted to each other. That implies to me that the primary attraction between them is physical and not based on their personalities, their characters, or who they really are. And if it's all just physical lust, then fine. Get it out and move on. Because I don't believe that physical attraction is an adequate basis for a long-term relationship. So, for me, Beneath the Surface proves that their relationship has no basis beyond physical attraction. Odd that a moment that was meant to convince the audience of ship, actually had the opposite effect on me.

Of course, by the time Beneath the Surface aired, we'd already had Divide and Conquer. So the superior-and-subordinate relationship was already pretty messed up, IMO.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm quite willing to believe there was physical attraction there but I'll never be convinced it went deeper, and certainly not deep enough for any kind of sustainable long-term relationship. It would have been stultifying and unsatisfying beyond the physical and boring for both of them. It's anybody's guess who would have bailed out first. My money's on Sam, if I had to choose.

The ep obviously had the same effect on me that it had on you. Probably not quite what they were trying to achieve.

Interesting point and for years Amanda Tapping has been saying they should just have sex and get over it.
I, as discussed previously in this thread, don't see any sexual chemistry between them, but they are both attractive people and I've seen stranger couples. It might be inappropriate, contrived and creepy (I still get hung up on Jack thinking of Jacob like a brother, have TPTB never heard of Elekra?) However, I find the idea of a sustained relationship to be ludicrous, they had ten years to show a relationship building, they didn't manage it, not even close.

FF

[silly sally]

Interesting point and for years Amanda Tapping has been saying they should just have sex and get over it.
I, as discussed previously in this thread, don't see any sexual chemistry between them, but they are both attractive people and I've seen stranger couples. It might be inappropriate, contrived and creepy (I still get hung up on Jack thinking of Jacob like a brother, have TPTB never heard of Elekra?) However, I find the idea of a sustained relationship to be ludicrous, they had ten years to show a relationship building, they didn't manage it, not even close.

FF

I think you and only you have heard of Elekra? Care to enlighten us about this figment of your imagination?

[jckfan55]

^Yeah, I just don't see a relationship working out for them. They're both attractive and maybe a flirty moment or two I could see, but really--what would they talk about?


I think they really start out as newbie and mentor--so problematic to me as far as romance--shades sexual harassment.

Sam admires his skill and bravery. Jack soon comes to admire her skill and bravery too. Why does that equal romance? I mean really, if that were the case they'd all be hooked up with each other.
They have a bond as a team beyond romance, imho.

[Frostfox]

I think you and only you have heard of Elekra? Care to enlighten us about this figment of your imagination?

Ah, the Spelling Police, don't we all think you are just so clever!

Electra as in Jungian psychoanalytic theory.

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[jckfan55]

SS--Elektra by Sophocles--read your classics.

[silly sally]

Do you seriously think Sam has 'daddy issues'?

[Frostfox]

^Yeah, I just don't see a relationship working out for them. They're both attractive and maybe a flirty moment or two I could see, but really--what would they talk about?


I think they really start out as newbie and mentor--so problematic to me as far as romance--shades sexual harassment.

Sam admires his skill and bravery. Jack soon comes to admire her skill and bravery too. Why does that equal romance? I mean really, if that were the case they'd all be hooked up with each other.
They have a bond as a team beyond romance, imho.

The writers seem to think that Sam loves Sir is the ultimate in love, destined to be in every reality, star crossed lovers against all odds, yadda, yadda, yadda. They don't seem to understand that the complicated, subtle, nuanced love between the Team is much more interesting, unusual and dynamic.

Of course, I am a sad comics fangirl, every time someone mentions Electra, I can only think of Frank Miller's DareDevil. Have those seminal issues upstairs in a box, somewhere.

FF

[Coela Bellatore]

Do you seriously think Sam has 'daddy issues'?

Yes she does. But besides that, everything Freud boils down to "parental issues" so why do you have a problem with it?

As for the creepy alien thing I was actually talking about the Jolinar memories. I guess I was the only person that thought that Sam being forced to have the romantic memories of another person and then when that other said person's lover hits on her was super gross.

[silly sally]

The writers seem to think that Sam loves Sir is the ultimate in love, destined to be in every reality, star crossed lovers against all odds, yadda, yadda, yadda. They don't seem to understand that the complicated, subtle, nuanced love between the Team is much more interesting, unusual and dynamic.

Of course, I am a sad comics fangirl, every time someone mentions Electra, I can only think of Frank Miller's DareDevil. Have those seminal issues upstairs in a box, somewhere.

FF

I think you're wrong. The fans (shippers) might believe that, but the writers as a whole never gave me that impression. IMHO only JM is a strong supporter of the ship, the rest being somewhat indifferent (Coop&BW). They're just going for the same cliche romance of leading guy getting the leading lady but only at the very end of the story... I, as a shipper, am sick of how this ship was portrayed past season 6...
I wish TPTB had the guts to make Sam and Jack break the regs and get together in season 4 (post "Beneath the surface" for example) only to realize later on ("Entity") that the regs are there for a reason and the team as whole is worth sacrificing their feelings...

[Frostfox]

Do you seriously think Sam has 'daddy issues'?

Quite possibly, she lost her mother at a young age and until her father became Tok'ra, they had an awkward and strained relationship. Jacob and Jack look and act like contemporaries, Jack says he thinks of Jacob as a brother and he's most likely nearer in age to Jacob than to his daughter.

Come on, it's more interesting and less cliché than Sam wuvs Jack just because he's such a manly man and the leading man and leading lady must get together.

I think you're wrong. The fans (shippers) might believe that, but the writers as a whole never gave me that impression. IMHO only JM is a strong supporter of the ship, the rest being somewhat indifferent (Coop&BW). They're just going for the same cliche romance of leading guy getting the leading lady but only at the very end of the story... I, as a shipper, am sick of how this ship was portrayed past season 6...
I wish TPTB had the guts to make Sam and Jack break the regs and get together in season 4 (post "Beneath the surface" for example) only to realize later on ("Entity") that the regs are there for a reason and the team as whole is worth sacrificing their feelings...

Re the bolded, that would have been synergistic, dynamic character development. They could have touched on issues of power and the glass ceiling too. But, of course, SG1 has to play it safe.
And to be fair, it's the nature of action/adventure genre to do that, they just had such good characters, they could have taken it that little bit further if they wanted to.

FF

[Khentkawes]

As for the creepy alien thing I was actually talking about the Jolinar memories. I guess I was the only person that thought that Sam being forced to have the romantic memories of another person and then when that other said person's lover hits on her was super gross.

Oh! Sorry for misunderstanding. Guess my mind just jumped to Beneath the Surface because it irritates me more than the stuff with Jolinar.

I guess I never thought about it that way. But considering all the memories that Sam received from Jolinar, I think the romantic memories were probably the least traumatic. There were certainly worse memories to deal with. And as for whether it's creepy... well, yeah, it is, I suppose. But like I said, not any more creepy than all the other memories that Sam was forced to deal with. Clearly she felt confused by those emotions, but after some initial confusion, I always thought Martouf was respectful of her feelings. *shrug* That's just my take on it.

[jckfan55]

But considering all the memories that Sam received from Jolinar, I think the romantic memories were probably the least traumatic. There were certainly worse memories to deal with. And as for whether it's creepy... well, yeah, it is, I suppose. But like I said, not any more creepy than all the other memories that Sam was forced to deal with. Clearly she felt confused by those emotions, but after some initial confusion, I always thought Martouf was respectful of her feelings. *shrug* That's just my take on it.

I thought so too. He didn't push anything. and she doesn't find out how he & Lantash really feel (she assumes most of it is feelings for jolinar) until the episode w/Lantash-Elliot. And I always thought she thought of him as a friend but with some residual Jolinar feelings thrown in. That's why I was so put off by the almost kiss in Ripple Effect. but again--for another thread.

[Frostfox]

Yes she does. But besides that, everything Freud boils down to "parental issues" so why do you have a problem with it?

As for the creepy alien thing I was actually talking about the Jolinar memories. I guess I was the only person that thought that Sam being forced to have the romantic memories of another person and then when that other said person's lover hits on her was super gross.

It could quite easily be argued as 'gross' but it was gross in a SFnal way, it had a twist which made it different (like the Kira/Odo/Female Changeling/Laars stuff or the Jadzia/Worf/Ezri/Julian relationship in DS9).

Oh! Sorry for misunderstanding. Guess my mind just jumped to Beneath the Surface because it irritates me more than the stuff with Jolinar.

I guess I never thought about it that way. But considering all the memories that Sam received from Jolinar, I think the romantic memories were probably the least traumatic. There were certainly worse memories to deal with. And as for whether it's creepy... well, yeah, it is, I suppose. But like I said, not any more creepy than all the other memories that Sam was forced to deal with. Clearly she felt confused by those emotions, but after some initial confusion, I always thought Martouf was respectful of her feelings. *shrug* That's just my take on it.

For Martouf, dealing with the symboites previous hosts must have been routine (see DS9 again, they went into it in some depth with Jadzia, particularly the lost memory of a host who had murdered people which previous hosts had suppressed).

I thought so too. He didn't push anything. and she doesn't find out how he & Lantash really feel (she assumes most of it is feelings for Jolinar) until the episode w/Lantash-Elliot. And I always thought she thought of him as a friend but with some residual Jolinar feelings thrown in. That's why I was so put off by the almost kiss in Ripple Effect. but again--for another thread.

I thought Lantash/Martuf dealt with it well, as you know, romance isn't of much interest to me unless used as a plot point to further our understanding of the characters or part of an SF scenario. Otherwise, it's a waste of space.

FF

[Frostfox]

I've wondered that as well. I've also heard that the network pushed for Anise, and that they ordered the writers to kill someone off in season 7 (don't remember where I read that, but I think the writers alluded to it on several occasions). And considering how the network formula seems to be "every show must have a romance" it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'm sure the networks had an influence. I'm somewhat wooly on the relationship between the network and production companies but I have seen enough comments from US posters to know that their influence can be dramatic. It's much less so in the UK and Europe, some production companies are closely tied to a station but not all and we don't have networks they way the US does.
SG1 is a mainstream, middle of the road show, designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, it’s not aiming to be edgy or to push boundaries. Even though it was filmed and produced in Canada, it was aiming for a US audience, so more violence than sex, predominately white heterosexual characters and nothing to upset their core demographic or the advertisers.
It does what it says on the tin. It’s entertaining but hardly challenging TV.
On a basic level, romance sells. Maybe not to you, not to me, but if you look at the shows such as Grays Anatomy and the like, there are any number of dramas which have a strong romantic focus.
SG1 wasn’t pitched as a drama show, it’s a SF action adventure and it did it very well, for a long time. In theory, romance shouldn’t distract from a programme, it should add to the drama and add to our understanding of the characters, provide motivation and insight. But Sam/Jack was so poorly handled, so badly written, trying to change the team dynamic which worked so well. It came over as melodramatic, it didn’t add to the characters, it took from them and impacted on their relationships with others on the show. Net loss rather than net gain.

FF