Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jckfan55]

^Well, I will say that I wish that Teal'c especially had been given more to do--such as talking with the entity-- and that the whole team had been there when Fraiser talked about pulling the plug. They did come in, but after the little scene w/ Jack & Janet.

[Frostfox]

^Well, I will say that I wish that Teal'c especially had been given more to do--such as talking with the entity-- and that the whole team had been there when Fraiser talked about pulling the plug. They did come in, but after the little scene w/ Jack & Janet.

Yep, a classic example of the Team being eroded by the sad attempt at romance. Because Sam and Jack is so much more important than Team. Pathetic, isn't it.

FF

[pkprd869]

Yep, a classic example of the Team being eroded by the sad attempt at romance. Because Sam and Jack is so much more important than Team. Pathetic, isn't it.

FF

That happened in Divide and Conquer. I thought it was shaping up to be a cool spy/espionage episode. Then all of a sudden love is in the air like some kinda bad Carpenters song. My head is starting to hurt just thinking about it.

[jckfan55]

Yep, a classic example of the Team being eroded by the sad attempt at romance. Because Sam and Jack is so much more important than Team. Pathetic, isn't it.

FF

The idea of Jack killing Sam the team mate to save earth is traumatic enough (the same way it would have been if Daniel were the one taken over by the entity) without it having to be about Jack shooting Sam, the woman he cares about.
My eyes are hurting from squinting out the shippiness.

[Frostfox]

The idea of Jack killing Sam the team mate to save earth is traumatic enough (the same way it would have been if Daniel were the one taken over by the entity) without it having to be about Jack shooting Sam, the woman he cares about.
My eyes are hurting from squinting out the shippiness.

Which is why I won't bother watching it again, despite Amanda's corking acting. Just not worth the effort, I don't watch SG1 often so I'd rather stick to episodes with forced 'ship. And it's what turns an episode into melodrama, rather than drama.

FF

[jckfan55]

Which is why I won't bother watching it again, despite Amanda's corking acting.

Given that she has no lines after she gets zapped by the entity, you'd think how hard can it be? But really, that makes it harder. She has to *be* the entity and not Sam just by her expressions--which are limited but significant.
As far as team, I like how Daniel continues to insist that Sam is in there all through the episode. Go Daniel!

[Frostfox]

Given that she has no lines after she gets zapped by the entity, you'd think how hard can it be? But really, that makes it harder. She has to *be* the entity and not Sam just by her expressions--which are limited but significant.
As far as team, I like how Daniel continues to insist that Sam is in there all through the episode. Go Daniel!

Yep, the lack of script made it even harder, at least MS has lines for Lifeboat and (blanking on the name of the other one with the padded cell, help me here folks!). It's quite amusing, the number of times AT and MS have played alternate versions of their core characters (must not get distracted by thinking about Forceful!Daniel in Absolute Power, but it's hard not to).

What's so saddening is that if Jack had just been scripted as showing care for Sam as a team mate, all the fans of that pairing would have read it as more than that. It wouldn't have upset the team dynamic, wouldn't have nudged the show over the line into melodrama, would have had the same net effect without overdoing it. Win/win all round.
They 'over egg the pudding' - they have to put in that little bit too much and it slows the show down and detracts from what really makes it tick. Those of us unconvinced by J/S are never going to be convinced by them, so why not make it palatable for all their viewers? Why spoil it for the majority who either don't care for or don't have an interest in one pairing?

SG1 doesn't have a stellar reputation amongst the UK Lit SF fans I know, it's considered cheesy and too 'easy' - not enough challenging episodes. Doing stuff like 'Sir loves Sam, oh, the DRAMA' just confirms that opinion, it's why, to the general SF fan, SG1 is considered to be a bit of a joke. SF fandom is strange about it's TV shows (I can only speak for British fandom here, but I've been a part of it since 1982 ). It took B5 and Buffy and Firefly to it's heart, Trek has always had a place and Farscape and BSG too. You get the odd media programme item at SF cons, but SG1 never broke out of potboiler, Sunday afternoon, non-demanding casual TV status, it lacked edge. It wouldn't be considered for a programme item at something like an Eastercon or Novacon. When we discuss TV at a Literary SF con, we talk about innovation and pushing boundaries. SG1 played it too safe, and having the leading man hook up with the leading woman is a classic sign of that.

FF

[discodiva]

and (blanking on the name of the other one with the padded cell, help me here folks!).

Legacy....MS does crazy soooooo well....


Deeds xx

[jdjunkie]

As far as team, I like how Daniel continues to insist that Sam is in there all through the episode. Go Daniel!

Go Daniel indeed.

There were some nice team moments in this ep, and I espcially loved Janet's caring professionalism. But so many moments like that are lost beneath the heavy weight of the ship.

I felt the same about Lost City. There's that terrific teamy scene at Jack's house, which left me with nothing but the warm fuzzies, but there was also the embarrassingly bad National Treasure rubbish. Eugh.

[jckfan55]

. When we discuss TV at a Literary SF con, we talk about innovation and pushing boundaries. SG1 played it too safe, and having the leading man hook up with the leading woman is a classic sign of that.

FF

See, I don't mind that it usually wasn't "pushing boundaries" or trying to be "edgy." Particularly when their efforts on that front seemed to be to just kill people off. But that's for another thread. Leading man + leading woman is kind of a throwback to early scifi shows though.
Maybe having Sam be a competent member of the team was as radical as tptb were willing to go You do wonder how much it was the network pushing the romance angle. From what I've read it was the network pushing the scantily clad Anise...

[Frostfox]

Legacy....MS does crazy soooooo well....

Deeds xx

Thank you, oh shy and retiring one.

Go Daniel indeed.

There were some nice team moments in this ep, and I espcially loved Janet's caring professionalism. But so many moments like that are lost beneath the heavy weight of the ship.

I felt the same about Lost City. There's that terrific teamy scene at Jack's house, which left me with nothing but the warm fuzzies, but there was also the embarrassingly bad National Treasure rubbish. Eugh.

Uh, 'National Treasure'. Shudder. How on earth can you make a real relationship out of an attitude like that? Sam mithering the poor man about feeling feelings and bringing up his wife and son. Break out the brain bleach again.
And then those pesky people turn up, you know, what's their names... oh, Daniel and Teal'c. And ruin the romantic moment! How naughty of them. Can't they tell Sam and Sir are busy 'feeling feelings? They don't need Daniel and Teal'c ruining their lovely romantic moment. And, strangely enough, RDA stops looking like he wants to be somewhere else, anywhere else, on world or off and SG1 works again. As if by magic. Funny that.

See, I don't mind that it usually wasn't "pushing boundaries" or trying to be "edgy." Particularly when their efforts on that front seemed to be to just kill people off. But that's for another thread. Leading man + leading woman is kind of a throwback to early scifi shows though.
Maybe having Sam be a competent member of the team was as radical as tptb were willing to go You do wonder how much it was the network pushing the romance angle. From what I've read it was the network pushing the scantily clad Anise...

I like some boundary pushing, you don't have to resort to decimating your cast to do it, that's lazy writing. The first episode I paid real attention to, as opposed to casually half watching was The Changling, which was a close to ground breaking as SG1 got. And Abyss was as edgy as they went. But there was no 'In the Pale Moonlight'

Spoiler:

Trek had never had a lead like Sisko, prepared to get into bed with Garak (not literally!) and lie and collude and murder to get The Federation out of a fix

and no groundbreaking 'Once More With Feeling'

Spoiler:

The lovely musical Buffy episode.

Sam is, quite rightly, held up as a good example of writing a smart woman character. But even before they deconstructed and began to destroy her character in later seasons due to the over emphasis on her romances, SG1 frequently failed the Bechdel test (a woman talking to another woman about something other than a man, about 70% of TV and film fail this).

dsudis is running the early seasons through the Bechdel test, it fails miserably and also on the criteria of characters of colour talking to each other.
http://dsudis.livejournal.com/tag/bechdel+test

FF

[Khentkawes]

See, I don't mind that it usually wasn't "pushing boundaries" or trying to be "edgy." Particularly when their efforts on that front seemed to be to just kill people off. But that's for another thread. Leading man + leading woman is kind of a throwback to early scifi shows though.
Maybe having Sam be a competent member of the team was as radical as tptb were willing to go You do wonder how much it was the network pushing the romance angle. From what I've read it was the network pushing the scantily clad Anise...

I've wondered that as well. I've also heard that the network pushed for Anise, and that they ordered the writers to kill someone off in season 7 (don't remember where I read that, but I think the writers alluded to it on several occasions). And considering how the network formula seems to be "every show must have a romance" it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[Coela Bellatore]

I've wondered that as well. I've also heard that the network pushed for Anise, and that they ordered the writers to kill someone off in season 7 (don't remember where I read that, but I think the writers alluded to it on several occasions). And considering how the network formula seems to be "every show must have a romance" it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The only thing that kept it from happening early was probably the Air Force influence. They nobody wanted to see any superior-on-subordinate action at that point in the game. Drugged superior-on-random alien chick is cool though and creepy memory alien symbiotic create-on-subordinate is good as well.

[Khentkawes]

The only thing that kept it from happening early was probably the Air Force influence. They nobody wanted to see any superior-on-subordinate action at that point in the game. Drugged superior-on-random alien chick is cool though and creepy memory alien symbiotic create-on-subordinate is good as well.

That's probably true. Although, I wish the Air Force influence would have continued to prevent it. I didn't think the drugged chick thing was cool. But I can accept it as the neanderthal, pure-instinct thing. So it doesn't bother me, I just don't actively like it, because I think it was kinda silly.

And the creepy-alien-memory thing...you're talking about "Beneath the Surface", right? Because that was just... dumb. If I really needed to be convinced that this relationship was stupid, Jack's "I remember feeling feelings" line would do it. I also have a problem with the implication that even when they remember nothing about themselves or each other, they are still attracted to each other. That implies to me that the primary attraction between them is physical and not based on their personalities, their characters, or who they really are. And if it's all just physical lust, then fine. Get it out and move on. Because I don't believe that physical attraction is an adequate basis for a long-term relationship. So, for me, Beneath the Surface proves that their relationship has no basis beyond physical attraction. Odd that a moment that was meant to convince the audience of ship, actually had the opposite effect on me.

Of course, by the time Beneath the Surface aired, we'd already had Divide and Conquer. So the superior-and-subordinate relationship was already pretty messed up, IMO.

[Frostfox]

The only thing that kept it from happening early was probably the Air Force influence. They nobody wanted to see any superior-on-subordinate action at that point in the game. Drugged superior-on-random alien chick is cool though and creepy memory alien symbiotic create-on-subordinate is good as well.

The Powers That Be were justifiably proud of the USAF support for the show, and they were quite careful to not up set them. If you notice, in Window of Opportunity, not only does Jack resign before kissing his 2IC but he's wearing clothes which could never be confused with USAF uniform.
But it meant that the fans of the J/S relationship were doomed for it never to be resolved from the start and TPTB didn't want to lose that support by showing two officers in a compromising position.

FF