Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Good post just a couple things that I don't really agree with. Former special ops guys are not crazy adrenaline junkies. A lot of them just like to retire and do something peaceful. Were mostly sarcastic laid back dudes, which is why we can take a lot of punishment. You take some high strung, do or die, nit pick and put him in a situation where ever single choice he makes is mission critical and they burn out in weeks.

And I can see Jack retiring to settle down with someone. I was surprised he was made a general at all and I find this to be one of the most unrealistic things in the entire series. Spec ops guys don't do well with bull**** and when you get to be a general its all bull****. I doubt he likes his job very much.

Mm, it's really interesting getting a 'hands on' kind of view from you. Thank you for posting here.

FF (working on a nice juicy reply for Kent - but the G&T and wine and beer are getting in the way! May have to do in the morning when I am sober)

[Khentkawes]

Good post just a couple things that I don't really agree with. Former special ops guys are not crazy adrenaline junkies. A lot of them just like to retire and do something peaceful. Were mostly sarcastic laid back dudes, which is why we can take a lot of punishment. You take some high strung, do or die, nit pick and put him in a situation where ever single choice he makes is mission critical and they burn out in weeks.

And I can see Jack retiring to settle down with someone. I was surprised he was made a general at all and I find this to be one of the most unrealistic things in the entire series. Spec ops guys don't do well with bull**** and when you get to be a general its all bull****. I doubt he likes his job very much.

You make a good point, and I will, of course, differ to your personal experience (as I have none). I didn't mean to imply that Jack is an adrenaline junkie, because that's not quite how I think of him. I just don't think he likes inactivity.

And I agree that Jack doesn't like dealing with bull****. He also doesn't try to hide what he really thinks. Which is why I think that he would have voiced his objections to the job in Washington, if he really didn't want to take it. But since he didn't (as far as we know), he must have had good reasons for taking the job. Or maybe it is just unrealistic, like you say. I don't know.

I guess I just object to the fanon idea that Jack either wants to retire and do nothing but fish 24/7, or that he is some kind of martyr who took the job in Washington because of duty but is completely miserable the entire time. Maybe at one point Jack would have wallowed in his misery, but I think at this point in his character development, he wouldn't be that masochistic. So IMO, either he took the job because he wanted it for some reason, or he found a way to make the best of it because he saw it as a worthwhile opportunity (even if it's not his ideal job).

As for "retiring to settle down with someone"... I don't think I can speak to that. I'm too young to want to "settle down" (and I've watched too many friends do so with somewhat questionable results). Plus, it kinda hits my romantic sap squick when it's phrased that way. Sorry, I'm just not a romantic kind of gal. But I guess if I had to see Jack settling down with someone... then I think that "someone" would also have to retire and settle down. I can't see it being someone like Sam who is still heavily involved with Stargate related projects, and is presumably still commanding a ship flying about the galaxy. That's not really settling down with someone, as much as sitting around waiting for someone to come home. So I can't see Jack being content with those circumstances.

Mm, it's really interesting getting a 'hands on' kind of view from you. Thank you for posting here.

FF (working on a nice juicy reply for Kent - but the G&T and wine and beer are getting in the way! May have to do in the morning when I am sober)

LOL. you're forgiven. Any chance that wine and beer will help me with my homework? No? Didn't think so.

[Frostfox]

I agree with most of that. If they're not working anywhere near each other (Jack at HWS and Carter on her ship/new command), I don't see how they could write a romantic relationship between them that didn't feel horribly forced and contrived. Of course, I thought the whole thing was contrived, so maybe that's just me (although, by the evidence in this thread, clearly it wasn't just me ).

Not just you!
I've heard of long distance relationships, but that's pushing it.

But as to Jack retiring... That's something I've always had a problem with. I've heard a lot of fans say that Jack has wanted to retire since season 8, that he was never happy as the head of the SGC, he never wanted to take the position as head of HWS and he only did so out of duty. I just don't get any of this. Jack never says that on camera. He never even hints at it. You could make inferences based on body-language I suppose... but if Jack didn't want to take the position as commander of the SGC, he could have said "no." If he didn't want to be head of HWS, he could have retired right then. No one forced him to do this. And this is Jack we're talking about, so I really don't see how anyone could force him to do something if he was dead-set against it.

I've heard behind the scenes stuff and fellow fans mention Jack retiring but nothing in the show. And now the news that he's to get his third star, it's not looking likely.

My other problem is that I've never seen Jack as someone who could be happy just sitting around. He's too active for that. He even says he doesn't like sitting around (from The Shroud: "Action good. Sitting around bad." I admit that quote is also the one piece of evidence I see for the "Jack doesn't like working at HWS" argument... but considering he'd be doing even more sitting around if he was retired, it still doesn't hold water for me). For me, it kind of diminishes Jack's character to imply that he spends his time longing for retirement and a life as a couch potato (or as a sedentary fisherman). True, Jack often talks about wanting to go fishing, and often emphasizes the need for time-off (both for himself and for the rest of SG-1), but to me this shows that Jack knows that it's necessary to balance his stressful job with a period of relaxation where he can unwind. It's a healthy coping strategy. Unlike the Jack we see in 2010 who retreats to the cabin to brood and sulk. That was a prime example of Jack doing nothing and it only increasing his misery.

Oh, he can be a house husband and bring up the twin babies (Jacob and Janet, if I recall correctly) while Sam goes out and saves the universe.

Maybe I just have a hard time respecting a character whose life-long ambition is (supposedly) to sit around and fish 24/7... to me, that seems like a waste of time and a waste of your life. And it's not the how I interpret Jack's character. So the whole retirement angle really drives me insane.

My other problem with it is that Sam seems to think that fishing is all Jack wants to do. Just like Jack does not understand Sam's love of science (and Jack has no desire to understand it, apart from the astronomy part), I don't think Sam really understands Jack. I know people have mentioned before that Sam seems to buy Jack's dumb act a little more often than Daniel, Teal'c, and Hammond do (which I agree with), but she also seems to think that Jack is ready to retire... I know, at least in the infamous deleted scene from Atlantis, JM wrote Sam as saying that the "guy from Washington" who she had been seeing was almost ready to retire. Does Sam really believe that Jack's career isn't important to him anymore? Does she really believe that he's ready to become her domesticated house husband? Jack? Former special ops, hard-as-nails Jack O'Neill? I'll grant you that a lot of this retirement stuff, and Sam's attitude towards it, come from the inferences and statements made by shippers, but it still baffles my mind. I can't see Jack being happy with the retired life. Or, if he was retired, I could see him working as a consultant/adviser to the SGC/Pentagon/President/HWS, and in his off-time running some sort of intercity youth program (knowing how Jack feels about kids). I can never see Jack being inactive or sedentary.

Yeah, but she also said that he 'was not much older' than her and Jack was born in '52, according to his ID and Sam was born in, what, '69? '67?
Not a definition of 'not much older' that I was familiar with.

I guess what I'm saying here is that we've talked about how the ship angle diminished Sam's character by implying that she needs a man to be happy (and possibly by implying that she'd risk her career by lusting after her CO), but I think it also diminishes Jack's character. Which is part of the reason I can't buy the ship... it doesn't fit with my interpretation of either character.

Oh, I think The Love to End All Loves show's Jack in a pretty poor light too, I'm just fonder of Sam than Jack, nowadays, and brilliant female characters are harder to come by than grizzled warrior leads.

I didn't really want RDA back either. Which surprised me, because he was one of my two favorite characters. But it was so nice to move on from the same old formulas, and the disintegrating team dynamic and start fresh... rebuild a new team dynamic. So when season 9 started, I was afraid I would dislike it, but I soon found I didn't even notice RDA's absence. I know that there are a lot of fans who think season 9 and 10 were utter drivel. And that's fine. But they can't tell me that it had no team dynamic or that it was complete crap. Because I see just the opposite. And bringing back RDA feels like an attempt to recapture the "old school" SG1 feel and an excuse to pretend seasons 9 and 10 never happened. Which I find somewhat distasteful and also completely unrealistic. You can't turn back time. Things chance. That's a natural part of life, even for a TV show. Trying to turn back time (metaphorically) rarely works out well.

I got fed up with Dumb!Jack and he stopped being my second favourite a few seasons before RDA left the show. I'm really worried that movie three is going to backfire on them if they over-rely on fans past affection for Jack.

I rediscovered how cool Carter is in season 9 and 10. It had been so long since I'd actually liked her as a character. S9/S10 made me actually love her character. She did her job, took command when appropriate, supported her teammates, worked on her brilliant science projects, and kicked ass when the opportunity arose. Strong, brilliant, insightful, calm, confident Carter! That's what I wanted to see.

That's our girl, and she'd kick Doe Eyes and Twinset and Pearls Carter into the middle of next week.

Good post just a couple things that I don't really agree with. Former special ops guys are not crazy adrenaline junkies. A lot of them just like to retire and do something peaceful. Were mostly sarcastic laid back dudes, which is why we can take a lot of punishment. You take some high strung, do or die, nit pick and put him in a situation where ever single choice he makes is mission critical and they burn out in weeks.

And I can see Jack retiring to settle down with someone. I was surprised he was made a general at all and I find this to be one of the most unrealistic things in the entire series. Spec ops guys don't do well with bull**** and when you get to be a general its all bull****. I doubt he likes his job very much.

As always, an interesting view point. I'm not sure Jack would enjoy a desk job either, but I'm sure he felt it was necessary evil for the SGC.

You make a good point, and I will, of course, differ to your personal experience (as I have none). I didn't mean to imply that Jack is an adrenaline junkie, because that's not quite how I think of him. I just don't think he likes inactivity.

And I agree that Jack doesn't like dealing with bull****. He also doesn't try to hide what he really thinks. Which is why I think that he would have voiced his objections to the job in Washington, if he really didn't want to take it. But since he didn't (as far as we know), he must have had good reasons for taking the job. Or maybe it is just unrealistic, like you say. I don't know.

I guess I just object to the fanon idea that Jack either wants to retire and do nothing but fish 24/7, or that he is some kind of martyr who took the job in Washington because of duty but is completely miserable the entire time. Maybe at one point Jack would have wallowed in his misery, but I think at this point in his character development, he wouldn't be that masochistic. So IMO, either he took the job because he wanted it for some reason, or he found a way to make the best of it because he saw it as a worthwhile opportunity (even if it's not his ideal job).

Jack might think that he wants to settle down and fish every day, but the reality of it might be an other matter.

As for "retiring to settle down with someone"... I don't think I can speak to that. I'm too young to want to "settle down" (and I've watched too many friends do so with somewhat questionable results). Plus, it kinda hits my romantic sap squick when it's phrased that way. Sorry, I'm just not a romantic kind of gal. But I guess if I had to see Jack settling down with someone... then I think that "someone" would also have to retire and settle down. I can't see it being someone like Sam who is still heavily involved with Stargate related projects, and is presumably still commanding a ship flying about the galaxy. That's not really settling down with someone, as much as sitting around waiting for someone to come home. So I can't see Jack being content with those circumstances.

Sam's career is very important to her, and quite right too, I can't see her being anywhere near retirement, there's still lots of research needing to be done. It's why I can't see her having kids, and by her age, if the biological clock was ticking loudly, she'd have had them anyway.

LOL. you're forgiven. Any chance that wine and beer will help me with my homework? No? Didn't think so.

It was very, very nice beer and wine. And we have a programme for the convention! And I've done fillos for it (our theme this year is school stories so I have drawn all the committee as school teachers), plus the weather was lovely, I sat out in a glorious garden reading a book all this morning.
What's your homework on?

FF

[DSG1]

I never understood Jack taking a desk job but RDA wanted to leave that's why they promoted him by season eight. I wish he had just retired. Now it's like they don't know what to do with his character anymore since he hasn't been a major of it for a very, very long time. A lot of time has passed since then. He seems out of place to me and I didn't like his acting in Continuum. It was stiff at best and awkward.

I wouldn't have cared or minded if Jack retired to be with Sam. I kinda thought that was the idea behind all his promotions? Guess not.

[Frostfox]

I never understood Jack taking a desk job but RDA wanted to leave that's why they promoted him by season eight. I wish he had just retired. Now it's like they don't know what to do with his character anymore since he hasn't been a major of it for a very, very long time. A lot of time has passed since then. He seems out of place to me and I didn't like his acting in Continuum. It was stiff at best and awkward.

I was forgetting the 'real world' reason they gave Jack a desk job!

I was annoyed that all Jack's lines in Continuum were a joke, every single one a quip. When facing Ba'al. With their history. They have turned him into a joke too. The AU Jack was better, but they should have let Jack go at the end of season 8.

FF

[DSG1]

You know what? That bolded part would actually be the one shippy thing I really wouldn't mind seeing. If Sam and Jack could really have a mature, adult conversation that wasn't steeped in awkwardness and then move on to do whatever the mission of the moment is in a professional way. For instance:
"Are you ready to go on your mission with Daniel to procure the necessary technology?"

"Yes. Are you ready to go on your mission with Teal'c and Cam (if he's in the movie) to procure us a spaceship?"

"Yes. OK, then. I know you'll both do a great job and we'll meet you at the coordinates as planned. I love you and good luck!"

"I love you too. Make sure Teal'c doesn't hit Cam too much."

*insert small smooch here*

"All right, team. Let's go save Siler!!"

*and off they go* (some of us can add an optional little hair ruffle from Jack and Daniel if desired)

Yuck! Sorry, I hope to God something like this would NEVER EVER happen, that IS NOT a mature convo for adults to have unless it's fanfic. Smooch???? Is this high school or sci-fi tv show?

And where are they going to kiss? In the middle of the Gate room? LOL.

[DSG1]

I was forgetting the 'real world' reason they gave Jack a desk job!

I was annoyed that all Jack's lines in Continuum were a joke, every single one a quip. When facing Ba'al. With their history. They have turned him into a joke too. The AU Jack was better, but they should have let Jack go at the end of season 8.

FF

I hated the part where Jack suddenly charged Ba'al, knowing what he is capable of and grabs him??? Huh? Would our Jack be dumb enough to something stupid as that? And says that stupid line, 'what have you done to MY people?' His people? lol. He hasn't been with the SGC since season eight. To me that was way out of character.


I felt bad for some of the corny lines poor RDA was given. It was like the writers didn't know what to do with him.

[Frostfox]

I hated the part where Jack suddenly charged Ba'al, knowing what he is capable of and grabs him??? Huh? Would our Jack be dumb enough to something stupid as that? And says that stupid line, 'what have you done to MY people?' His people? lol. He hasn't been with the SGC since season eight. To me that was way out of character.


I felt bad for some of the corny lines poor RDA was given. It was like the writers didn't know what to do with him.

Well, this is the same group who said that they didn't know what to do with Sam's character either, so it doesn't surprise me.

FF

[jckfan55]

And RDA is a good actor, there's no way that look of indigestion was accidental, that was an acting and a directing choice but it was such a bizarre one, I can't for the life of me imagine why they would do it.

FF

I think RDA is a better actor than he gets credit for, so you're probably right.

Kick ass Sam kicks ass! Love her to death. I want this Sam, not twinset and pearls and doe eyes of death Sam!!!!!

FF

Yep. AT can do emotional scenes and that's fine. Just not this S/J stuff, puh-leez! It's not the Sam I know and love.

And I can see Jack retiring to settle down with someone. I was surprised he was made a general at all and I find this to be one of the most unrealistic things in the entire series. Spec ops guys don't do well with bull**** and when you get to be a general its all bull****. I doubt he likes his job very much.

You make a good point. As Jack said his whole career he was "stickin' it to the man." I don't think they should have ever made Jack a general. And to keep promoting him? He's talented and has sacrificed much for the planet. That doesn't mean he should be a general. They could have promoted him to general for his retirement rank so he'd get a bigger pension. That would make sense.

[Frostfox]

I think RDA is a better actor than he gets credit for, so you're probably right.

I certainly underestimate him at times, and I think he underestimates himself.

Yep. AT can do emotional scenes and that's fine. Just not this S/J stuff, puh-leez! It's not the Sam I know and love.

It's a waste. Someone in the Team Discussion Thread, let me check... it was Crichiel, wrote about Lost City, how the scene between Sam and Jack at his house (when he's downloaded the database and is basically waiting to go nuts and die) with the horrible 'National Treasure' line (seriously, what kind of relationship is based on one of them thinking the other is a National Treasure?) is stilted and awkward and just horrible.
Yet when Daniel and Teal'c arrive, it goes back to being teamy goodness, the four of them interacting, reacting naturally and emotionally without that dreadful, stilted emotional constipation which happens ever time they force the 'ship' onto the screen.

You make a good point. As Jack said his whole career he was "stickin' it to the man." I don't think they should have ever made Jack a general. And to keep promoting him? He's talented and has sacrificed much for the planet. That doesn't mean he should be a general. They could have promoted him to general for his retirement rank so he'd get a bigger pension. That would make sense.

Sigh, it's sad that we fans can come up with better ideas than the pro writers. I saw many more sensible ideas for where Sam was at the start of Season nine than the show came up with. And I've always believed that fans would do a better job in fanfic with Sam and Jack than the writers did. With the added advantage of me not having to read it, obviously.

FF

[DSG1]

I liked Carter in season 10 the most. In season 10 they went back to being a team again. I didn't even miss Jack at all. Season 9 I didn't care for it all that much. I'd liked Avalon tho.

The Quest reminded me that she could still kick ass. That's my favorite ep of all time. Reminded of the early days of SG1.

I never watched Stargate for any ships. I watched for the stories and team episodes guess shippers forgot what Stargate was supposed to about.

[Frostfox]

I liked Carter in season 10 the most. In season 10 they went back to being a team again. I didn't even miss Jack at all. Season 9 I didn't care for it all that much. I'd liked Avalon tho.

The Quest reminded me that she could still kick ass. That's my favorite ep of all time. Reminded of the early days of SG1.

I never watched Stargate for any ships. I watched for the stories and team episodes guess shippers forgot what Stargate was supposed to about.

It's not what the fans watch the show for that frets me, I don't care what other fans get from it.
It's what the writers do and what the writers think the fans want which worries me.

FF

[Khentkawes]

Warning: this post may contain random smilie usage.

I've heard behind the scenes stuff and fellow fans mention Jack retiring but nothing in the show. And now the news that he's to get his third star, it's not looking likely.

True, it is an idea that circulates among fans without much evidence from the show. I think it's just the assumption that Jack is miserable in Washington and can't wait to retire so he can play house with Sam... I guess that's what bothers me. Because, as I said, that's not a version of Jack that I recognize. But you're right. That's not really in the show, just a fanon idea... and that doesn't even mean I think that most shippers think that way... it's just an impression I've gotten sometimes. *shrug* I'll stop digging myself into this hole now.

Oh, he can be a house husband and bring up the twin babies (Jacob and Janet, if I recall correctly) while Sam goes out and saves the universe.

Eeek! Run away, Jack, run away!

That's our girl, and she'd kick Doe Eyes and Twinset and Pearls Carter into the middle of next week.

Jack might think that he wants to settle down and fish every day, but the reality of it might be an other matter.

That's actually a good point. I can live with that interpretation.

It was very, very nice beer and wine. And we have a programme for the convention! And I've done fillos for it (our theme this year is school stories so I have drawn all the committee as school teachers), plus the weather was lovely, I sat out in a glorious garden reading a book all this morning.
What's your homework on?

FF

Glad to hear! Sounds like you had a productive (and fun) time.
My homework is... uh... kinda boring to most people At this exact moment, I'm supposed to be reading/translating a couple of Middle English texts, and studying Middle English dialects. It's, uh, hard. The worst part? I'm doing this voluntarily. *facepalm* Ah, well, time to return to the battle of the books.

I hated the part where Jack suddenly charged Ba'al, knowing what he is capable of and grabs him??? Huh? Would our Jack be dumb enough to something stupid as that? And says that stupid line, 'what have you done to MY people?' His people? lol. He hasn't been with the SGC since season eight. To me that was way out of character.

Actually, that hadn't occurred to me, but now that you mention it... that probably wasn't a smart move. Yeah, the "my people" line always amused me.

I think RDA is a better actor than he gets credit for, so you're probably right.

Too true. I think RDA's acting has been a bit, ah, inconsistent over the years, which has led to some people underestimating him. But he has proven that he can be quite phenomenal, and he's certainly very talented.

I liked Carter in season 10 the most. In season 10 they went back to being a team again. I didn't even miss Jack at all. Season 9 I didn't care for it all that much. I'd liked Avalon tho.

The Quest reminded me that she could still kick ass. That's my favorite ep of all time. Reminded of the early days of SG1.

I never watched Stargate for any ships. I watched for the stories and team episodes guess shippers forgot what Stargate was supposed to about.

ITA.

"Supposed to be about" is subjective, I guess. So fans may differ on what they think Stargate is supposed to be about. But I watched it for the team episodes and team dynamic (though some adventure, humor, mythology, and character development never hurt either ).

Oh, and "ditto" in regards to The Quest. Love it. Even before decking him, Sam snips at Ba'al. I love when she tells him and Adria: "oh why don't you two just get a room?!"

[Frostfox]

Warning: this post may contain random smilie usage.

Ooh, you smilie abuser, you.

True, it is an idea that circulates among fans without much evidence from the show. I think it's just the assumption that Jack is miserable in Washington and can't wait to retire so he can play house with Sam... I guess that's what bothers me. Because, as I said, that's not a version of Jack that I recognize. But you're right. That's not really in the show, just a fanon idea... and that doesn't even mean I think that most shippers think that way... it's just an impression I've gotten sometimes. *shrug* I'll stop digging myself into this hole now.

It's not a Jack I recognise, either, so you aren't alone in that. I'm not sure if it's what TPTB have in mind for him. They might want him to go out in a blaze of glory? Though it's not very likely.

Glad to hear! Sounds like you had a productive (and fun) time.
My homework is... uh... kinda boring to most people At this exact moment, I'm supposed to be reading/translating a couple of Middle English texts, and studying Middle English dialects. It's, uh, hard. The worst part? I'm doing this voluntarily. *facepalm* Ah, well, time to return to the battle of the books.

Respect. I have enough trouble with English!

Too true. I think RDA's acting has been a bit, ah, inconsistent over the years, which has led to some people underestimating him. But he has proven that he can be quite phenomenal, and he's certainly very talented.

And the problem with being charismatic and attractive; it's easy to cruise and fall back on that rather than to pull out a superb acting job. Though RDA can and has risen to the occasion (Abyss) I think my problem with him are the 'cruising' parts, when MS/AT/CJ are 'cruising' (ie not high focus, high drama) they are better at making their characters look engaged and involved than RDA is. If you get my drift, I've only had one cuppa this morning, it's well known that I need at least two cups of tea to be fully coherent.

"Supposed to be about" is subjective, I guess. So fans may differ on what they think Stargate is supposed to be about. But I watched it for the team episodes and team dynamic (though some adventure, humor, mythology, and character development never hurt either ).

Oh, and "ditto" in regards to The Quest. Love it. Even before decking him, Sam snips at Ba'al. I love when she tells him and Adria: "oh why don't you two just get a room?!"

Oh yeah, gimme that teamy goodness.

FF

[Frostfox]

Yuck! Sorry, I hope to God something like this would NEVER EVER happen, that IS NOT a mature convo for adults to have unless it's fanfic. Smooch???? Is this high school or sci-fi tv show?

And where are they going to kiss? In the middle of the Gate room? LOL.

They missed a trick with their joke wedding in 200. They did a pretty good job of poking fun at the wedding fans, particularly with the look Jack pulled at the idea and Marty talking about not wanting to torture their audience, but they should have gone the whole hog and had the wedding in the gate room. It would have been hysterical!

FF