Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Or rather, it was written as an older, more mature relationship. No melodrama, and even though they hinted at it for seasons, it didn't feel teased. And it felt appropriate to their characters (even if there were similar objections about whether they should be getting together, because of their positions)

Sorry, that's what I meant by being produced/written by Ron Moore, I have great respect for him after DS9.
The BSG relationship was written as though they were two adults, in an mature, difficult but rewarding relationship, with real stresses and dramas, real hurdles and triumphs.

It did not involve either party simpering, stammering, looking constipated, fluttering their eyelashes or otherwise demeaning themselves.

Which, of course, is why Adama and Roslin worked and why Jack and Sam is always doomed to failure. Trust me, when people write about SG1 in 10, 20 years time, they won't be praising it for it's realistic portrayal of relationships, will they!

FF

[MerryK]

Sorry, that's what I meant by being produced/written by Ron Moore, I have great respect for him after DS9.
The BSG relationship was written as though they were two adults, in an mature, difficult but rewarding relationship, with real stresses and dramas, real hurdles and triumphs.

It did not involve either party simpering, stammering, looking constipated, fluttering their eyelashes or otherwise demeaning themselves.

Which, of course, is why Adama and Roslin worked and why Jack and Sam is always doomed to failure. Trust me, when people write about SG1 in 10, 20 years time, they won't be praising it for it's realistic portrayal of relationships, will they!

FF

I don't have particular respect for Ron Moore's other portrayals of relationships in that show...but I appreciated the way Adama/Roslin was handled.

And no, I don't think Stargate's getting relationship cred, either now or in the future. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, given the show's focus, except that they were obviously trying for something. How hard is it to avoid the "star-crossed lovers" trope, honestly?

[Frostfox]

I don't have particular respect for Ron Moore's other portrayals of relationships in that show...but I appreciated the way Adama/Roslin was handled.

And no, I don't think Stargate's getting relationship cred, either now or in the future. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, given the show's focus, except that they were obviously trying for something. How hard is it to avoid the "star-crossed lovers" trope, honestly?

I think it's true that an action adventure show doesn't need overblown romance, however, that doesn't preclude realistic interactions of a romantic nature completely. However, it takes clever, subtle writing, with believable plots which enhance the show to carry it off. Non of this happened with S/J, as we sadly know, the 'star crossed lovers' brought the plot to a grinding halt every time it was forced into the show.

FF

[Frostfox]

Yeah, that was a nice one. She says "Mary Steenburgen?" and he says "Well she's hot" . It was kind of a nice, "we know each other" moment.

Made me smile.

In Birthright, didn't they make Sam jump to the romantic conclusion when Mala(?) said "special relationship?" Ick. Very good point though about Bregman. Sam had said admiring things about him in response to his question, but in a "service to his country" or world! way. Grrr.

I noticed the interview rubbish (not the word I wanted to use, but polite company and all that). Jack O'Neill, hero a hundred times over, reduced to a romantic dupe. Just goes to show, the character assassination happened to both characters.

It's especially strange since RDA is absent so much in that season that the little screen time he does have seems to be largely taken up with shippy stuff. (Or at least stuff that could be construed as shippy.) Maybe having Sam talk about Jack a lot was supposed to make us not notice that he's hardly ever there?

Yep, let's waste RDA's limited appearances on stilted romance shall we? Pretty much par for the course by the last few seasons of the show.

FF

[EvenstarSRV]

There are Sam and Daniel stories out there, they are just hard to track down. And the first hint of Sam 'n Sir and I hit the back button so fast I leave skid marks. Shudder.

They haven't been too hard for me to find, though I've noticed that they tend to be written more by Sam or Sam/Jack writers than Jack/Daniel ones, so that may be the difference.

I always felt that the main reason they never went there in the show was respect for the USAF, rather than respect for the fans or common sense writing of their characters. I would be very, very surprised if they didn't retire Jack before they do anything solid with the romance. But I think they know that retiring Jack will be the end of his story, so I'm not sure they are willing to do this yet, he is a money spinner for them and while RDA is still willing to be in the show, it would be daft to cut that course of income off. And the rumor is that he's been promoted?

I think it was both for the Air Force and the fans. If they wanted to resolve the relationship in favor of Sam/Jack, they could have easily had Jack retire (which they hinted at and would have respected AF regs), but that would have risked losing fans who didn't like S/J.

If they chose to definitively resolved the issue against Sam/Jack, then that would also have respected the AF regs, but would risk losing fans who like S/J. So in IMO, by not resolving the issue either way, they continue to respect the AF rules while also keeping both the pro and anti S/J fans.

I believe the rumor is that in his SGU appearance Jack is a Lt. General, though where the third movie will fall into the timeline I'm not sure. I must admit though, I rather like the idea of Jack's story ending in retirement, allowing him to at last be at peace fishing at his cabin.

Yeah, billing the film as a grand romance will be miss selling it. I have a feeling that the Sam and Jack fans will build up whatever romantic scene we get lumbered with way beyond what TPTB will deliver. Hence my fear that they will annoy those who don't care about the pairing and those who do.

That's the thing for me, I just can't see the Stargate PTB choosing to sell this movie as a grand romance. From my perspective, they've always marketed the series as an action/adventure show so I don't see them suddenly changing their formula now.

From what I've seen of fandom so far, it seems like leaving the S/J issue unresolved annoys both shippers and anti-shippers alike. I just feel that finally making a decision one way or the other will make a clean ending to it. They'll probably lose fans either way, but at least it will not longer be an ongoing issue.

But BSG had the advantage of being written/produced by Ron Moore, I rest my case.

I agree with MerryK here. I liked Moore's treatment of the Adama/Roslin relationship and the Athena/Helo one, but the Dualla/Apollo/Starbuck/Anders soap opera mess in season 3 almost completely turned me off the show.

[Frostfox]

They haven't been too hard for me to find, though I've noticed that they tend to be written more by Sam or Sam/Jack writers than Jack/Daniel ones, so that may be the difference.

That'll be why. I don't hang about in the same circles at the J/S fans on LJ. If you want to recommend any, I'd be happy. Sam & Teal'c recs too.

I think it was both for the Air Force and the fans. If they wanted to resolve the relationship in favor of Sam/Jack, they could have easily had Jack retire (which they hinted at and would have respected AF regs), but that would have risked losing fans who didn't like S/J.

If they chose to definitively resolved the issue against Sam/Jack, then that would also have respected the AF regs, but would risk losing fans who like S/J. So in IMO, by not resolving the issue either way, they continue to respect the AF rules while also keeping both the pro and anti S/J fans.

Not arguing here, I agree, I just put quite a lot of weight behind RDA's relationship with the USAF. It's unusual for a branch of the armed forces to be so involved with a TV show (though the BBC are reporting the Army being behind the re-launch of Action Man in the UK, life imitating art?).

The fence sitting did neither side any favours, it's a large part of what has made J/S so ridiculous, grown adults find a solution to such a dilemma, particularly if it is a potential hazard to their safety and the safety of those they work with. Particularly if it breaches the oaths they took as officers. Only teenagers or the emotionally crippled are so indecisive and ineffectual as Sam and Jack and I really don't think TPTB intended for two of their four leads to come over as emotionally retarded, but that's what it looks like in the show.

Natural fannish attrition means that, now SG1 is over, a lot of fans, of all types, have drifted away from the show. It's what fans do, there are always new shows coming through to take their attention. The lists and LJ have gone quieter. The volume of fanfic and fan activity is naturally tailing off. The natural arc of story for S/J should have ended years ago. RDA left in season 8, that was four, five years ago? Anything they do now is just too late to be realistic or believable in any way

I believe the rumor is that in his SGU appearance Jack is a Lt. General, though where the third movie will fall into the timeline I'm not sure. I must admit though, I rather like the idea of Jack's story ending in retirement, allowing him to at last be at peace fishing at his cabin.

I've no objection to that. However, Jack would be bored out of his skull within six months! He's not the type to retire and do nothing.
And I don't see why he needs to be saddled with a woman he can barely exchange four words with. It reminds me of those relationships between an older man and a foreign wife, where the wife speaks no English and the husband doesn't speak her language. There is no real connection there. Same with Jack and Sam, she may as well be speaking another language for all the realistic communication they share. Lust does not a healthy or long lasting relationship make and they've not convinced me, or a lot of their fanbase, of anything real or substantial between them.

That's the thing for me, I just can't see the Stargate PTB choosing to sell this movie as a grand romance. From my perspective, they've always marketed the series as an action/adventure show so I don't see them suddenly changing their formula now.

We can only hope. But as I said, what ever they do won't be enough for the dedicated S/J fan and it will tick of all the rest of us, and bore a huge part of their audience in the much coveted young male demographic (any member of TPTB who thinks that young men are going to be wowed by people old enough to be their grandparents/parents 'making out', deserves everything they are going to get in the way of reviews).

From what I've seen of fandom so far, it seems like leaving the S/J issue unresolved annoys both shippers and anti-shippers alike. I just feel that finally making a decision one way or the other will make a clean ending to it. They'll probably lose fans either way, but at least it will not longer be an ongoing issue.

But they did end it, at the end of season 8. They went fishing, which we had been told for years was what every fan of the pair had been wanting. The fact that Jack took Teal'c fishing first is a source of endless amusement for the slash fans.

I agree with MerryK here. I liked Moore's treatment of the Adama/Roslin relationship and the Athena/Helo one, but the Dualla/Apollo/Starbuck/Anders soap opera mess in season 3 almost completely turned me off the show.

Moore isn't perfect, neither was BSG, but on reflection they did a whole lot better than SG1 on the relationship between adults front.

FF

[EvenstarSRV]

That'll be why. I don't hang about in the same circles at the J/S fans on LJ. If you want to recommend any, I'd be happy. Sam & Teal'c recs too.

Sure, here are a few I've kept bookmarked, the others I'll have to track down.

Sam and Daniel:
No Creed for Mathematics - Surreallis
http://surreallis-fic.livejournal.com/40264.html

Mending Fences - Denise
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/m...dingfences.htm

Brave New World - Annerb
http://annerbhp.livejournal.com/42788.html

Contact - Denise
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/m...n4/contact.htm

Someone Else's Prayer - afg
http://www.ofnoconsequence.com/Someo...r%20revise.txt

Beneath the Waves - Rowan Darkstar
http://www.beautyinshadows.net/beneaththewaves.html
(This one veers into Sam/Daniel UST a bit, but it's still mostly friendship so I like it.)

Sam and Teal'c:

Ashes to Ashes - Denise
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/m...son2/ashes.htm

Depths of Friendship - Denise
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/m...on6/depths.htm

Prevail - Denise
http://www.jackfic.net/emeraldcity/drama/prevail.htm

Waltzing is for Dreamers - afg
http://www.ofnoconsequence.com/Waltzing.txt

The Working Hour - afg
http://www.ofnoconsequence.com/The%20Working%20Hour.txt

I've no objection to that. However, Jack would be bored out of his skull within six months! He's not the type to retire and do nothing.
And I don't see why he needs to be saddled with a woman he can barely exchange four words with. It reminds me of those relationships between an older man and a foreign wife, where the wife speaks no English and the husband doesn't speak her language. There is no real connection there. Same with Jack and Sam, she may as well be speaking another language for all the realistic communication they share. Lust does not a healthy or long lasting relationship make and they've not convinced me, or a lot of their fanbase, of anything real or substantial between them.

I guess I just don't see Sam and Jack having such a huge emotional disconnect from each other that they can't talk about anything. I don't believe there was any grand romance about them in the show, but I also think they understood each other as friends. I always felt there was mutual respect and trust between them, not lust. But I'm thinking this is a subject where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[discodiva]

I guess I just don't see Sam and Jack having such a huge emotional disconnect from each other that they can't talk about anything. I don't believe there was any grand romance about them in the show, but I also think they understood each other as friends. I always felt there was mutual respect and trust between them, not lust. But I'm thinking this is a subject where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Another one you'll have to agree to disagree with then I guess.....I see the odd flashes of friendship between Sam and Jack but much of their interactions since S4 and 5 to me seem forced and a tad uncomfortable.....and certainly nothing like the comfortable cameraderie between Jack and Daniel.....now there's a friendship built on shared experiences that they went through right from the very beginning....their interactions, whether angry and confrontational, humourous, snarky or comforting always come across as a perfectly natural friendship which has progressed over the years organically.....

I guess it's interesting to see all our different interpretations of the Jack/Sam relationship or non-relationship in my case!...

I hope and pray that the writers leave well alone in the third film or I fear it could look quite sad and laughable if handled in the way past supposed "romantic moments" have been....


Deeds xx

[jckfan55]

Sure, here are a few I've kept bookmarked, the others I'll have to track down.



I guess I just don't see Sam and Jack having such a huge emotional disconnect from each other that they can't talk about anything. I don't believe there was any grand romance about them in the show, but I also think they understood each other as friends.

Thanks for the links. I remember a few of them.

I would agree with your point above. And given that, it made the awkward scenes in threads twice as painful.

[Khentkawes]

I hope and pray that the writers leave well alone in the third film or I fear it could look quite sad and laughable if handled in the way past supposed "romantic moments" have been....

I really hope that they don't try to handle this awkward "relationship" in the third SG-1 movie. While I agree in principle with the statement that the writers made a mistake by not resolving the issue long ago... at this point I think it's too late to fix that, so they need to just continue as they have been by deferring the resolution. Anything they do now would seem out of place in the series as a whole. Anything more than hints would break the style that they have used for the series up until now. I think in this case, it's the casual fans/viewers who they should consider, not the fanatical viewers (like those of us crazies on GW ). Because the die-hard S/J shippers won't be satisfied with anything short of full, blatant confirmation, and the non-shippers will object to anything carrying shipy overtones, whether it's blatant or not (at least, I'll object. ).

The difference is that casual fans (in my experience, at least) either never noticed the S/J because they didn't care about it and thought it was just harmless fun (if they saw it at all), or they saw it but considered it to be just the normal TV UNST, or they liked it and thought that Sam and Jack got together off screen after season 8, but that it was kept off screen because it wasn't central to the plot or to the adventure style of the show. For viewers who fall into any of these categories, some blatant shipy confirmation will seem awkward and unnecessary. And yes, I realize that I'm making a lot of assumptions about the "general" viewers, but that has been my experience with friends who watch the show, but who don't come online. I'd hazard a guess that most viewers who do not participate in online fandom simply don't care enough for it to matter. So for them, it would be distracting.

[discodiva]

The difference is that casual fans (in my experience, at least) either never noticed the S/J because they didn't care about it and thought it was just harmless fun (if they saw it at all), or they saw it but considered it to be just the normal TV UNST, or they liked it and thought that Sam and Jack got together off screen after season 8, but that it was kept off screen because it wasn't central to the plot or to the adventure style of the show. For viewers who fall into any of these categories, some blatant shipy confirmation will seem awkward and unnecessary. And yes, I realize that I'm making a lot of assumptions about the "general" viewers, but that has been my experience with friends who watch the show, but who don't come online. I'd hazard a guess that most viewers who do not participate in online fandom simply don't care enough for it to matter. So for them, it would be distracting.

That's pretty much my experience of the general viewing public too....both my husband and son are, compared to me, casual viewers - casual as in they enjoy the series and take interest in all the storylines...they aren't particularly biased towards a certain character, although my son when younger, had a preference for O'Neill as a hero figure........but the one thing they, and those friends of my son who are also interested in SG-1, have in common is............

They couldn't give a flying fig, nor do they hardly ever notice, any S/J ship whatsoever!!...

I think that the notion of S/J ship is far more prevalent in the female fan section....and I think a small minority more quite often like to see themselves in the role of Sam, because Jack/RDA is their hero/fantasy.......NOTE I said small minority, no way am I implying that this is the norm!...

Deeds xx

[EvenstarSRV]

Another one you'll have to agree to disagree with then I guess.....I see the odd flashes of friendship between Sam and Jack but much of their interactions since S4 and 5 to me seem forced and a tad uncomfortable.....and certainly nothing like the comfortable cameraderie between Jack and Daniel.....now there's a friendship built on shared experiences that they went through right from the very beginning....their interactions, whether angry and confrontational, humourous, snarky or comforting always come across as a perfectly natural friendship which has progressed over the years organically.....

For me, all of the SG-1 team members have built their friendships on common experiences, sometimes ones they shared together like in Serpent's Grasp, or in pairs like Sam and Jack in Solitudes, Sam and Daniel in Gamekeeper, Jack and Teal'c in Tangent, or Jack and Daniel in Abyss. Probably what I love most about the show was the variety of friendships showcased in the SG-1 team, and to me at least, they all felt natural and complemented each other. The whole team, with all its myriad of emotions and relationships, is what caught my attention and made me become more than just a casual Stargate fan.

The difference is that casual fans (in my experience, at least) either never noticed the S/J because they didn't care about it and thought it was just harmless fun (if they saw it at all), or they saw it but considered it to be just the normal TV UNST, or they liked it and thought that Sam and Jack got together off screen after season 8, but that it was kept off screen because it wasn't central to the plot or to the adventure style of the show. For viewers who fall into any of these categories, some blatant shipy confirmation will seem awkward and unnecessary. And yes, I realize that I'm making a lot of assumptions about the "general" viewers, but that has been my experience with friends who watch the show, but who don't come online. I'd hazard a guess that most viewers who do not participate in online fandom simply don't care enough for it to matter. So for them, it would be distracting.

I was a casual fan until maybe 7-8 months ago and had seen all of SG-1 before venturing online, so that's likely why my perspective on Sam and Jack is so different from long-time fans. For me still the S/J ship is just one aspect of the show, so I personally don't find small mentions of it distracting but it's not an aspect I focus on when watching the show. So one scene in a Jack-centric action/adventure film probably won't bother me at all.

[Frostfox]

Same thing happened to him in Continuum as I fear will happen in the 3rd movie they'll use him for shippy bits with Sam.

That's my main fear too, that Sam and Jack have to, in every scene, be shot together. As if, if any other character stands with either of them, the ship fairy dies.
Which actually says a lot about the lack of chemistry; if you have to block them together in every scene for fear that seeing them with other actors will show this up!

I loved Carter's character she was one of the reasons why I watched the show and hated the Pete romance more than Jack's. That the low point for me, I don't watch those ep's on my DVD's. I skip the Pete ones. They make me cringe.

I didn't hate Pete or the idea of Sam having a life outside the SGC. Had they kept it low key, an odd, short scene here and there, not a problem but they couldn't do that, could they?
And they did Sam no favours by showing her still pining for the boss while leading the poor sap around by the ... nose. Made her look manipulative and cruel to a guy who's only sin was not to be Jack.

I never understood Grace or the reason behind her suddenly dumping Jack for a lesser man in my opinion, seemed out of desperation to get in a relationship with a total stranger??? To get over feelings for Jack? Never made sense to me. Totally out of character for Sam in my point of view.

I didn't like how they wrote Pete as a 'lesser man'. Jack O'Neill, uber sex god, no woman can fail to fall for his super sex appeal, no man can stand comparison to this Alpha of Alpha males. Utter tripe.

Where was the strong female that I loved in Children of the gods? It went south thanks to the writer's after eight seasons.

So sad.

Sure, here are a few I've kept bookmarked, the others I'll have to track down.

Snipped for space, thank you for these, I've read Denise's but not most of the others.

I guess I just don't see Sam and Jack having such a huge emotional disconnect from each other that they can't talk about anything. I don't believe there was any grand romance about them in the show, but I also think they understood each other as friends. I always felt there was mutual respect and trust between them, not lust. But I'm thinking this is a subject where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I like to think they have an emotional connection. I just think that the writers have mucked up the show so badly that I can't see that connection for the pile of overblown melodrama they put over that connection, tainting it and making it impossible for me to see it any more.

Another one you'll have to agree to disagree with then I guess.....I see the odd flashes of friendship between Sam and Jack but much of their interactions since S4 and 5 to me seem forced and a tad uncomfortable.....and certainly nothing like the comfortable camaraderie between Jack and Daniel.....now there's a friendship built on shared experiences that they went through right from the very beginning....their interactions, whether angry and confrontational, humorous, snarky or comforting always come across as a perfectly natural friendship which has progressed over the years organically.....

I guess it's interesting to see all our different interpretations of the Jack/Sam relationship or non-relationship in my case!...

I hope and pray that the writers leave well alone in the third film or I fear it could look quite sad and laughable if handled in the way past supposed "romantic moments" have been....


Deeds xx

I want Sam and Jack to have a friendship connection, the same way the whole team did in early seasons. It's sad that the only connection they now have is The Great Romance, they can't be written as friends or comrades or mentor/pupil anymore.
I do think TPTB noticed how natural a chemistry RDA and MS had. And that's not to knock the chemistry between RDA and anyone else, as I've said before, RDA and AT have lovely friendly chemistry, all the way through, it's only when TPTB try to force it into something it's not that it grates and becomes unnatural and stilted.

FF

[Coela Bellatore]

Well I'm not a shipper and not an anti-shipper either, I'm pretty new to SG-1 and have only seen the first 2 seasons. Going on that as an Air Force Officer and being that your discussing their interactions in the first season I have some things to put out here (not the obvious its against regs stuff).

This is pretty intense but it bears saying: Sam went to the Air Force Academy.

One of my best friends in the world went to AFA and emerged from it a cynically bitter and disillusioned person. He found that the amount of sexual violence directed against female cadets, staff members, and non-personnel to be disgusting to the point he often got in fights with his fellow cadets his Plebe year. After that he took a less confrontational response to it but he has some deeply disturbing stories of sexual abuse that still haunt him.

A lot of the abuse came from upperclassmen and Academy personnel, superior officers, which are figures of authority and power in the military.

From the point of the early interactions between Sam and Jack it bears two alternatives based on the two most common reactions to sexual abuse (I got this from my friend who creepily enough learned it at an academy Psych class):

1. She hates male superiors and acts as "one of the boys" as well as in a overt feminist manner (explains Emancipation). Her affection for Jack overcomes this and he shows her that men can be good again awww.

2. Your signature got me thinking; however, that she liked him from when they met the first time in CoTG. This implies a dark suggestion in that Sam developed a sort of abuse Stockholm Syndrome that means she is attracted to superiors who treat her badly, i.e. Jack in CoTG. The dick measuring contest in the SGC when she is introduced to the team could confirm that as instead of dismissing the remarks she eggs them on, enjoying the feeling of being found "unworthy".

Regardless of all that I think that by season 2 they have a genuine affection based on shared experiences and getting to know one another. The origin of the relationship interested me so that is why I posted this.

[jdjunkie]

I guess I just don't see Sam and Jack having such a huge emotional disconnect from each other that they can't talk about anything. I don't believe there was any grand romance about them in the show, but I also think they understood each other as friends. I always felt there was mutual respect and trust between them, not lust. But I'm thinking this is a subject where we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Thing is, we never saw Sam and Jack talk successfully about anything outside of work. Every single time Sam tried to talk about personal stuff Jack closed her down, and often non too kindly or subtly. I saw no friendship in any real sense of the word in that.

I do think TPTB tried to sell us a grand romance. The fact that they couldn't write it meant it came across more like Peyton Place and made both characters look like emotionally immature dolts.

Where we can agree, however, is on the question of mutual respect and trust ... on an entirely professional level. Their professional relationship was great, especially in the early years.

YMM - and clearly does - V.

Makes the world go round.