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    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
    Seasons 9 and 10 were good because they forced the writers to go back to writing Sam again. They did wallpaper her to some degree, while playing with their new shiny toys (Cam and Vala) but at least she could, as you say, show some affection for people without it having to have Deep and Meaningful implied all over it.

    FF
    Like the end of "Road Not Taken" where you find out the team was keeping vigil—it's friendship there, pure and sweet, from all sides. Were it the old team, it'd just have been Jack, and there'd be some king of long lingering look. Even though Sam was wallpapered some in the later seasons, at least she got to interact with all the team; the focus on S/J in earlier seasons, apart from feeling forced, limited her range.

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      I agree that Sam as a character had more chances in seasons 9 and 10, than in seasons 4-8, but since I hated the whole Ori-arc with a passion, I haven't watched those last seasons much. Come to think of it, except for a few episodes, I don't watch seasons 4-8 much either. It is just too painful much of the time.

      RANT ON
      To me, SG-1 is seasons 1-3 - the rest is in another universe, but that is not just because of the S/J-ship. It is more because I think the Tok'ra gets treated more and more as enemies/Goa'uld as the seasons progress, and I can't reconcile that with how they are at first. Also, in those three seasons I like Jack - that too was destroyed for me in later seasons. Never mind - that's just me.
      RANT OFF

      In the first 3 seasons of SG-1, I never saw any ship (that may be me being naive, but I didn't). Then from D&C and forward I think it was rather blatant much of the time, which (to me) destroyed Sam's character, because, as frostfox and others have said, the writers had removed every other interesting plot line from her, except for the S/J ship (which I don't find interesting). She is less and less the strong, independent woman that I liked so much in the earlier seasons.
      However, the scene with Jack promoting Sam I didn't see as shippy - I just thought she was rather young to get that promotion, but that she probably deserved it. During times of war, people tend to advance quickly through the ranks. But I agree the promotion came at a suspicious time.
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        Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
        The 'She's a strong kid (now give me a hug because you are the most important thing in my life, forget Janet and Cassie, pay attention to me)' scene made me sick.
        And tore me totally out of a good episode because I wouldn't, for one moment, think that was in Sam's character. It was poor writing, poor directing choices which made it come over that way. Which is great if what you want your audience to take from the scene is that Sam is narcissistic. But I'm sure that wasn't their intent. I think they felt they needed to pander to the part of the audience which likes to see Sam needing Sir more than they needed the reference to Cassie. Which is wrong. Sam 'n Sir should, if it has to be, background, her character (and his) shouldn't be sacrificed to forward that plot thread.
        There are no words for how much I dislike that scene in Heroes. The first time I watched it, when Sam said, "She's a tough kid, she survives" or something close (I've hardly ever watched it because I value my low blood pressure reading) I actually said, "What?" out loud. Because, you know ... would Sam really say that?

        Janet is dead and the next thing we see is Sam trotting off to a private room (note, Jack's not in the infirmary like he has been every other time he's been injured, it's shippily engineered so the two of them are alone) and The Hug ensues. Dreadful.
        And in a sad counterpoint, Daniel, who witnessed Janet's death, was heard desperately calling for a medic and was clearly upset, was left with no comfort and was crying in a darkened isolation room, found only by the reporter. (I didn't realise he was crying until quite recently, btw. But he is).

        Way to alienate the viewer (well, this one anyway ) and do a massive disservice to Sam's character.

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          Originally posted by MerryK View Post
          Like the end of "Road Not Taken" where you find out the team was keeping vigil—it's friendship there, pure and sweet, from all sides. Were it the old team, it'd just have been Jack, and there'd be some king of long lingering look. Even though Sam was wallpapered some in the later seasons, at least she got to interact with all the team; the focus on S/J in earlier seasons, apart from feeling forced, limited her range.
          Yep, perfect example. Lovely scene in 'Road Not Taken'.
          And that's another reason to dislike S/J, limiting Amanda's acting to romantic tosh. You've got a first rate actress, why not give her acting meat to work with? Scenes such as those in 'Singularity'. Why waste her on romance scenes, particularly, as mentioned before, when she's against RDA and he acts like a brick wall in the 'romantic' moments so she doesn't even get the feedback of another participating actor.

          Originally posted by Snotr View Post
          I agree that Sam as a character had more chances in seasons 9 and 10, than in seasons 4-8, but since I hated the whole Ori-arc with a passion, I haven't watched those last seasons much. Come to think of it, except for a few episodes, I don't watch seasons 4-8 much either. It is just too painful much of the time.

          RANT ON
          To me, SG-1 is seasons 1-3 - the rest is in another universe, but that is not just because of the S/J-ship. It is more because I think the Tok'ra gets treated more and more as enemies/Goa'uld as the seasons progress, and I can't reconcile that with how they are at first. Also, in those three seasons I like Jack - that too was destroyed for me in later seasons. Never mind - that's just me.
          RANT OFF

          In the first 3 seasons of SG-1, I never saw any ship (that may be me being naive, but I didn't). Then from D&C and forward I think it was rather blatant much of the time, which (to me) destroyed Sam's character, because, as frostfox and others have said, the writers had removed every other interesting plot line from her, except for the S/J ship (which I don't find interesting). She is less and less the strong, independent woman that I liked so much in the earlier seasons.
          However, the scene with Jack promoting Sam I didn't see as shippy - I just thought she was rather young to get that promotion, but that she probably deserved it. During times of war, people tend to advance quickly through the ranks. But I agree the promotion came at a suspicious time.
          I didn't see the promotion as romantic, Sam had every right to be proud of being promoted and Jack had every reason to be proud of her. But think how much stronger all their scenes would be if they were Officer and 2IC, mentor and pupil, platonic friendship which transcends romantic melodrama.

          I'm in agreement with you over the treatment of the Tok'ra too. Too often SG1 wasted interesting concepts such as the symbiotic relationship between host and symbiote. Such as The Nox, The Re'tu, Jolinar's memories in Sam, it's a real shame.


          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
          There are no words for how much I dislike that scene in Heroes. The first time I watched it, when Sam said, "She's a tough kid, she survives" or something close (I've hardly ever watched it because I value my low blood pressure reading) I actually said, "What?" out loud. Because, you know ... would Sam really say that?

          Janet is dead and the next thing we see is Sam trotting off to a private room (note, Jack's not in the infirmary like he has been every other time he's been injured, it's shippily engineered so the two of them are alone) and The Hug ensues. Dreadful.
          It's a really good episode, fabulous acting, interesting premise, I didn't like losing Janet but apart from that, great stuff. But I won't watch it very often, like you, that scene leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth. And it didn't have to be like that, they could have shot exactly the same scene, but without the overlaying layer of sickly romance and it would have been fine. If the acting and the directing had made that scene about Janet, it would have been genuinely moving, rather than melodrama which shows two of the lead characters in such a shoddy light.
          Love can be two things. It can be me, me, me, my love, my emotion, my man, my woman. Or it can be selfless, encompassing, honourable.
          And we all know which this scene plays to.

          Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
          And in a sad counterpoint, Daniel, who witnessed Janet's death, was heard desperately calling for a medic and was clearly upset, was left with no comfort and was crying in a darkened isolation room, found only by the reporter. (I didn't realise he was crying until quite recently, btw. But he is).

          Way to alienate the viewer (well, this one anyway ) and do a massive disservice to Sam's character.
          Sad, isn't it. To me, SG1 is all about team, but sometimes, they drop the ball and when they do, they drop it badly.

          FF
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            Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
            I also personally saw Sam's surprise as in reaction to Jack announcing her promotion at his ceremony, rather than surprise at the promotion itself, which she was most likely aware of as a possibility.
            Well that's the way I saw it too. She was also surprised at the announcement of her promotion to major. I think the surprise element was the writers' effort at dramatic effect. Much less dramatic to run into her in the hall & say "by the way, the promotion board approved your promotion."

            Originally posted by MerryK View Post
            Like the end of "Road Not Taken" where you find out the team was keeping vigil—it's friendship there, pure and sweet, from all sides. Were it the old team, it'd just have been Jack, and there'd be some king of long lingering look. Even though Sam was wallpapered some in the later seasons, at least she got to interact with all the team; the focus on S/J in earlier seasons, apart from feeling forced, limited her range.
            Yes, and I really liked Vala's hug. I'm not a Vala fan, but this little moment did more to make me like her than most things. (and I heard it was CB's improv) Also Sam's reaction was great.

            Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
            There are no words for how much I dislike that scene in Heroes. The first time I watched it, when Sam said, "She's a tough kid, she survives" or something close (I've hardly ever watched it because I value my low blood pressure reading) I actually said, "What?" out loud. Because, you know ... would Sam really say that?

            Janet is dead and the next thing we see is Sam trotting off to a private room (note, Jack's not in the infirmary like he has been every other time he's been injured, it's shippily engineered so the two of them are alone) and The Hug ensues. Dreadful.
            It was definitely a Huh? moment. I could even see the "tough kid" comment as a way for Sam to not want to get into it or she'd start crying at work IF we hadn't then followed it up with THE HUG. Maybe if she said that to someone in passing in the hall. I'm not opposed to a teamy hug between S & J--if it had been about Janet ok. but the way it was handled was just a bit too "about us" for me.

            Why not have an infirmary conversation where Sam says she's glad he's ok, she was worried and then also have a real conversation about Cassie with somebody?

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              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
              Well that's the way I saw it too. She was also surprised at the announcement of her promotion to major. I think the surprise element was the writers' effort at dramatic effect. Much less dramatic to run into her in the hall & say "by the way, the promotion board approved your promotion."


              Yes, and I really liked Vala's hug. I'm not a Vala fan, but this little moment did more to make me like her than most things. (and I heard it was CB's improv) Also Sam's reaction was great.
              Lovely moment.

              Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
              It was definitely a Huh? moment. I could even see the "tough kid" comment as a way for Sam to not want to get into it or she'd start crying at work IF we hadn't then followed it up with THE HUG. Maybe if she said that to someone in passing in the hall. I'm not opposed to a teamy hug between S & J--if it had been about Janet ok. but the way it was handled was just a bit too "about us" for me.

              Why not have an infirmary conversation where Sam says she's glad he's ok, she was worried and then also have a real conversation about Cassie with somebody?
              Again, it's the writing and directing which fail, handled differently, it wouldn't have seemed so wrong.
              I seem to keep bashing the writing. It's not entirely fair, the writing on SG1 is, for the most part, perfectly fine (for a mainstream US TV action/adventure show). It was good enough for 10 seasons!
              It's romance they don't seem to be able to do convincingly.

              FF
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                Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post

                Janet is dead and the next thing we see is Sam trotting off to a private room (note, Jack's not in the infirmary like he has been every other time he's been injured, it's shippily engineered so the two of them are alone) and The Hug ensues. Dreadful.
                You know, when I think about it, one thing that always seemed so wrong about Jack and Sam's romance was that it doesn't seem natural. It seems forced to me because of exactly what you point out here....their shippy moments are often "engineered" and come at the expense of their devotion/friendship/love for the other characters.

                The other big example of this is in "Divide and Conquer" or actually "Upgrades". Getting Jack and Sam separated from Daniel and Teal'c and then from each other by the force field had absolutely no point other than to set up the shippy moment. If you watch "Upgrades" Jack and Sam plant their bomb and then come back to meet Daniel. Daniel comes trudging back with the naquadah, his armband falls off and he passes out. Teal'c shows up and Jack tells Teal'c to haul Daniel out of the ship or pyramid or wherever they were which Teal'c does. At that point, Jack and Sam run back into the ship for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON! They had already planted the bomb and it was on a timer. They do nothing but run around the halls a few times and then get stuck by the forcefields when their armbands wear off. And they obviously only do that so that in the next episode we can hear about how Jack won't leave Sam behind because he cares about her more than he's supposed to, while completely ignoring the fact that Teal'c and Daniel are standing at the entrance fully expecting to be blown up because THEY WON'T LEAVE WITHOUT JACK AND SAM EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THEY'LL DIE FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT THEY CARE FOR THEIR TEAMMATES!!! (Sorry about that, I always get riled up at that. )

                So, what I see as the introduction of this romance (the previous times it was in an AU or one of them was an AU version) is based on two big red flags for me. One, implying that Jack would have left Teal'c or Daniel behind because he doesn't care about them very much, and Two, having no reason for Jack and Sam to have been in that circumstance in the first place, i.e. engineering the shippy moment rather than coming up with a legitimate place for it.

                While I still wouldn't have been a fan of their relationship, I don't think I would have been so against it if not for these problems. And having those two problems present right at the very start probably made for a bad first impression of the idea to me.
                Last edited by Callista; 31 March 2009, 04:33 PM.

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                  Originally posted by Callista View Post
                  You know, when I think about it, one thing that always seemed so wrong about Jack and Sam's romance was that it doesn't seem natural. It seems forced to me because of exactly what you point out here....their shippy moments are often "engineered" and come at the expense of their devotion/friendship/love for the other characters.

                  The other big example of this is in "Divide and Conquer" or actually "Upgrades". Getting Jack and Sam separated from Daniel and Teal'c and then from each other by the force field had absolutely no point other than to set up the shippy moment. If you watch "Upgrades" Jack and Sam plant their bomb and then come back to meet Daniel. Daniel comes trudging back with the naquadah, his armband falls off and he passes out. Teal'c shows up and Jack tells Teal'c to haul Daniel out of the ship or pyramid or wherever they were which Teal'c does. At that point, Jack and Sam run back into the ship for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON! They had already planted the bomb and it was on a timer. They do nothing but run around the halls a few times and then get stuck by the forcefields when their armbands wear off. And they obviously only do that so that in the next episode we can hear about how Jack won't leave Sam behind because he cares about her more than he's supposed to, while completely ignoring the fact that Teal'c and Daniel are standing at the entrance fully expecting to be blown up because THEY WON'T LEAVE WITHOUT JACK AND SAM EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THEY'LL DIE FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT THEY CARE FOR THEIR TEAMMATES!!! (Sorry about that, I always get riled up at that. )

                  So, what I see as the introduction of this romance (the previous times it was in an AU or one of them was an AU version) is based on two big red flags for me. One, implying that Jack would have left Teal'c or Daniel behind because he doesn't care about them very much, and Two, having no reason for Jack and Sam to have been in that circumstance in the first place, i.e. engineering the shippy moment rather than coming up with a legitimate place for it.

                  While I still wouldn't have been a fan of their relationship, I don't think I would have been so against it if not for these problems. And having those two problems present right at the very start probably made for a bad first impression of the idea to me.
                  Very good points.
                  They seem to have been unable to sustain the team vibe while writing romance. And it felt as though characters were sacrificed to forward the relationship, Martouf, Jacob, even Janet, to some extent, were killed to elicit an emotional response in Sam which Jack then comforts her over. And Martouf, Jacob and Janet were way more important to the show and much more interesting than 'love written in the stars' (insert your own pink twinkling sparkles here) on who's altar of shippy goodness they are sacrificed.

                  FF
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                    Originally posted by Callista View Post
                    You know, when I think about it, one thing that always seemed so wrong about Jack and Sam's romance was that it doesn't seem natural. It seems forced to me because of exactly what you point out here....their shippy moments are often "engineered" and come at the expense of their devotion/friendship/love for the other characters.
                    A little jokey/teasing moment or even tinges of flirting were natural. Romance with a capital R never worked imho.


                    The other big example of this is in "Divide and Conquer" or actually "Upgrades". Getting Jack and Sam separated from Daniel and Teal'c and then from each other by the force field had absolutely no point other than to set up the shippy moment. If you watch "Upgrades" Jack and Sam plant their bomb and then come back to meet Daniel. Daniel comes trudging back with the naquadah, his armband falls off and he passes out. Teal'c shows up and Jack tells Teal'c to haul Daniel out of the ship or pyramid or wherever they were which Teal'c does. At that point, Jack and Sam run back into the ship for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON! They had already planted the bomb and it was on a timer. They do nothing but run around the halls a few times and then get stuck by the forcefields when their armbands wear off.
                    I think there was a reason they went back after planting the bomb--but now I can't remember what it was...

                    And they obviously only do that so that in the next episode we can hear about how Jack won't leave Sam behind because he cares about her more than he's supposed to, while completely ignoring the fact that Teal'c and Daniel are standing at the entrance fully expecting to be blown up because THEY WON'T LEAVE WITHOUT JACK AND SAM EVEN THOUGH THEY KNOW THEY'LL DIE FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN THAT THEY CARE FOR THEIR TEAMMATES!!! (Sorry about that, I always get riled up at that. )
                    Same thing in Singularity. None of them will leave Sam when they think she's about to get blown up with Cassandra.



                    They managed to pull off a hug in Fire and Water without it getting shippy. Oh for those days....

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                      Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                      They managed to pull off a hug in Fire and Water without it getting shippy. Oh for those days....
                      Oh, yes. That actually felt real - not forced. I think that's a good illustration of what Callista's talking about. It was a natural part of the story - it wasn't engineered to shine a spotlight on Sam/Jack. Whereas D&C (if there was an episode I could wipe from canon, it would be that one I think) and a lot of the moments in S7&8 felt awkward and set up.
                      Last edited by Killdeer; 01 April 2009, 09:03 AM.
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                        Originally posted by Killdeer View Post
                        Oh, yes. That actually felt real - not forced. I think that's a good illustration of what Callista's talking about. It was a natural part of the story - it wasn't engineered to shine a spotlight on Sam/Jack. Whereas D&C (if there was an episode I could wipe from canon, it would be that one I think) and a lot of the moments in S7&8 felt awkward and set up.
                        Yep. Comfort scenes like in "Solitudes" and the little jokes between them and occasional hugging out of celebration or sadness I have no problem with. I have no problem with Sam getting sexually agressive over Jack and Jack getting territorial over her in "The Broca Divide". It's not one of my favorite episodes, but I don't have a problem with their relationship in "Beneath the Surface" either, because I can see where they'd be physically attracted to each other and if all their other baggage were to be wiped out like in that episode then they're an OK couple. (Not some grand romance, just a nice pair of people who are comfortable together and enjoy each other's company and support and share an intimacy which grows from that.) Those seemed like a natural progression for them that didn't harm their characters or harm their relationship with the rest of their team and friends.

                        If they had kept it at that level, I don't think I would have had a problem with Jack and Sam getting together after he left the SGC. Frankly, they both seem like the kind of people for which a long distance relationship would work just fine. Jack seems to like his alone time and Sam seems to really enjoy her work so just seeing each other on occasional week-ends would probably work out well for them. And then, when Jack retires, he could move to wherever Sam is. Well, unless she's *possible Atlantis finale spoiler unless I'm misinformed*
                        Spoiler:
                        commanding a spaceship. Is that where she left off? I don't know because I don't watch Atlantis.


                        But, then I suppose it's not an "entertaining" romance in the minds of the writers or producers or network or whomever was responsible for pushing the more "in your face" type of romance.

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                          Originally posted by Killdeer View Post
                          Oh, yes. That actually felt real - not forced. I think that's a good illustration of what Callista's talking about. It was a natural part of the story - it wasn't engineered to shine a spotlight on Sam/Jack. Whereas D&C (if there was an episode I could wipe from canon, it would be that one I think) and a lot of the moments in S7&8 felt awkward and set up.
                          Yes, agrees.
                          I shipped S/J until D&C at which point it was destroyed for me (I didn't start shipping Sam/Martouf until the writers starting force-feeding us S/J and I rewatched the first 3 seasons).

                          Many of the epis in the seasons from 4 and on had forced/engineered S/J shippy situation. I think I'd continued love Sam and Jack together if it hadnt been done so clumsily and forced - and at the expense of team (and sacrifising Jacob, Martouf, Janet... for Sam h/c with Jack...as FrostFox said).
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                            Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                            A little jokey/teasing moment or even tinges of flirting were natural. Romance with a capital R never worked imho.

                            I think there was a reason they went back after planting the bomb--but now I can't remember what it was...

                            Same thing in Singularity. None of them will leave Sam when they think she's about to get blown up with Cassandra.

                            They managed to pull off a hug in Fire and Water without it getting shippy. Oh for those days....
                            It was the sacrifice of such moments which was so sad.
                            They couldn't allow the team to distract from tuw wuv steamrolling all before it, heaven forbid Jack be shown caring for anyone other than his love. Written in the stars, remember.

                            Originally posted by Callista View Post
                            Yep. Comfort scenes like in "Solitudes" and the little jokes between them and occasional hugging out of celebration or sadness I have no problem with. I have no problem with Sam getting sexually agressive over Jack and Jack getting territorial over her in "The Broca Divide". It's not one of my favorite episodes, but I don't have a problem with their relationship in "Beneath the Surface" either, because I can see where they'd be physically attracted to each other and if all their other baggage were to be wiped out like in that episode then they're an OK couple. (Not some grand romance, just a nice pair of people who are comfortable together and enjoy each other's company and support and share an intimacy which grows from that.) Those seemed like a natural progression for them that didn't harm their characters or harm their relationship with the rest of their team and friends.

                            If they had kept it at that level, I don't think I would have had a problem with Jack and Sam getting together after he left the SGC. Frankly, they both seem like the kind of people for which a long distance relationship would work just fine. Jack seems to like his alone time and Sam seems to really enjoy her work so just seeing each other on occasional week-ends would probably work out well for them. And then, when Jack retires, he could move to wherever Sam is. Well, unless she's *possible Atlantis finale spoiler unless I'm misinformed*
                            Spoiler:
                            commanding a spaceship. Is that where she left off? I don't know because I don't watch Atlantis.


                            But, then I suppose it's not an "entertaining" romance in the minds of the writers or producers or network or whomever was responsible for pushing the more "in your face" type of romance.
                            Camaraderie, platonic friendship, respect, friendship, all of that is more entertaining than second rate melodrama which would have shamed a soap opera.
                            And I really doubt any of us would be this vocal if we didn't feel that we'd had our faces rubbed in the mess once to often.

                            Originally posted by RingThing View Post
                            Yes, agrees.
                            I shipped S/J until D&C at which point it was destroyed for me (I didn't start shipping Sam/Martouf until the writers starting force-feeding us S/J and I rewatched the first 3 seasons).

                            Many of the epis in the seasons from 4 and on had forced/engineered S/J shippy situation. I think I'd continued love Sam and Jack together if it hadnt been done so clumsily and forced - and at the expense of team (and sacrifising Jacob, Martouf, Janet... for Sam h/c with Jack...as FrostFox said).
                            I don't think the forced romance was the sole reason for the demise of the characters (with the exception of Jacob, that seemed purely to get a response from Sam) but it was clearly used to forward the relationship.
                            What does that say about the writing, if the only way to advance your grand romance is to destroy other characters? Sad.

                            FF
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                              Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                              I don't think the forced romance was the sole reason for the demise of the characters (with the exception of Jacob, that seemed purely to get a response from Sam) but it was clearly used to forward the relationship.
                              What does that say about the writing, if the only way to advance your grand romance is to destroy other characters? Sad.
                              In the case of Janet... I think there were definitely other reasons for her death. The (arguably) shipy moment was included in Heroes, but I don't think the ship was the motivation behind the entire episode. For one thing, it's one of the most dramatic and emotionally gut-wrenching episodes, and everyone involved with it said that they were trying to make something that was much more serious than most of what they'd done before. So, I think the ship just slipped in, it wasn't the driving factor. (Side note: as much as I regret that Daniel didn't get a moment of comfort, and that they didn't show him interacting with his team, MS was given some really great material here and did a fantastic job with it... plus there's the Sam/Teal'c scene, which I also thought was well done. So, there is a lot going on here that has nothing to do with S/J).

                              However, in the case of Martouf... it's pretty hard for me to argue that his death was anything but a sacrifice on the alter of S/J. Part of the reason that I so firmly dislike D&C is that the entire episode serves no purpose other than to force the ship (sort of like Atlantis' Brainstorm... only without the "Save the Planet" stuff... oh, and Brainstorm had more of a plot). And that's why I think that it's really poor writing on a purely narrative level. It doesn't further the plot line at all. I guess, supposedly it finalizes the Tok'ra/Tau'ri treaty, but we really see very little that has to do with the treaty. The only character development is the "feelings" scene (which I would call bad character development, but still, it's development). There's not even much of a plot. Basically people sit around worrying that Jack and Sam might be brainwashed for an entire freaking episode. It's mind-numbingly tedious. And it all builds up to the big "revelation" at the end, where Jack says that he "cares more than he's supposed to." Really? Wow. That was a boring hour-long episode. Oh, and then Martouf dies at the end. No biggie. So yeah, considering that the episode only served to advance the S/J storyline, I would say that Martouf was killed merely because it was convenient and because it would further the S/J ship.

                              But again, S/J is far from the only problem with D&C. It was also just an example of exceptionally poor and heavy-handed writing. Probably the best part of the episode is the title, which I've always found to be brilliantly ironic because the episode did exactly what the title proclaims. It divided The Team, and it divided the fanbase in ways that we will never be able to get passed. Divide and Conquer, indeed.
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                                Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
                                But again, S/J is far from the only problem with D&C. It was also just an example of exceptionally poor and heavy-handed writing. Probably the best part of the episode is the title, which I've always found to be brilliantly ironic because the episode did exactly what the title proclaims. It divided The Team, and it divided the fanbase in ways that we will never be able to get passed. Divide and Conquer, indeed.
                                Absolutely. Very well said.

                                Slightly OT, but on the subject of D&C, one of the weird things about that episode, besides the heavyhanded S/J, was Anise. Did anyone else ever notice this? Martouf told Sam once that the host and the symbiote love as one, but here Freya claims that's not true. She has feelings for Jack while her symbiote has feelings for Daniel.

                                Anyway, yeah, that has nothing to do with S/J, but I agree that there were many many things wrong with the episode. One of the things I've always resented, besides the obvious, is that D&C ruined Upgrades for me. I like Upgrades. It's not a perfect episode, but it has a lot of fun team moments in it. But having that scene retconned into it just spoils it for me. I suppose that's irrational, but it really does annoy me.
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