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Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

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    Originally posted by Callista View Post
    There were Sam/Cam shippy moments in seasons 9 and 10!>!?
    The hug in Ethon and scenes in Line in the Sand are a couple that were discussed in the episode threads I believe.

    I agree with you on the Pete and Kerry thing but yet there Sam is standing in Jack's backyard and even Kerry states that it's awkward. And there she is on that ship in Grace hallucinating about Jack and kissing him. That's what is so weird about the relationship to me. There will be a whole bunch of episodes where it's completely non-existant and then it will be brought up as if it's been lurking there under the surface the whole time.
    I thought the awkwardness Kerry felt came from the fact that she and Jack were trying to keep their relationship low-key, so Sam finding out about them would make things uncomfortable from that perspective.

    I also saw the Grace scene a bit differently, more along the lines of Sam thinking on what if's when she's moments from death, as opposed to something that normally occupies her thoughts. Especially since she hallucinated Daniel, Teal'c, and even her father long before she thought of Jack.

    Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
    I'm sorry this thread isn't what you were looking for, those are valid points of conversation about SG1 but we are on topic, this is what the thread has been about for five years now, it's just had a name change recently.
    Fair enough, I didn't realize this used to be the anti-Sam/Jack thread. The 'part of a team, not a ship' part made me think discussing the two characters as at least friends would be acceptable, but apparently not. My bad.
    Last edited by EvenstarSRV; 28 March 2009, 01:01 AM.

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      Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
      Fair enough, I didn't realize this used to be the anti-Sam/Jack thread. The 'part of a team, not a ship' part made me think discussing the two characters as at least friends would be acceptable, but apparently not. My bad.
      I don't think that's out of the realm of possible discussions. I mean, yes, this was once the "anti-S/J" thread, and I think we all are happy to once again have a place where we can discuss our reasons for not liking (or not even seeing) the ship. However that doesn't mean we couldn't discuss Sam and Jack apart from the ship aspects (although I suspect we would often return to the subject of why it would have been better to keep them as friends and colleagues instead of shipping them). I went back to the first few posts when this thread was started (long before my time on GW), and noticed that some fans were talking about scenes where they thought Sam and Jack's interaction was good in a non-shippy sense. So it's definitely something we could talk about.

      Keep in mind, we've only had this thread reopened for a few days now, so we're taking advantage of the opportunity to use it again after a long absence. And in my case, I avoid mentioning Sam and Jack on most general threads, and I feel like this is one of the few places where I can criticize the way their relationship was written. So bear with us for a while as we air some gripes and long-stored up criticisms.

      On a side note, I'm disturbed that my lovely title suggestion has already caused some confusion.

      EDIT: another side note... I re-watched Evolution today, so I have a bit more balanced perspective on "that" scene. More on this later.
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        Originally posted by Khentkawes View Post
        I don't think that's out of the realm of possible discussions. I mean, yes, this was once the "anti-S/J" thread, and I think we all are happy to once again have a place where we can discuss our reasons for not liking (or not even seeing) the ship. However that doesn't mean we couldn't discuss Sam and Jack apart from the ship aspects (although I suspect we would often return to the subject of why it would have been better to keep them as friends and colleagues instead of shipping them). I went back to the first few posts when this thread was started (long before my time on GW), and noticed that some fans were talking about scenes where they thought Sam and Jack's interaction was good in a non-shippy sense. So it's definitely something we could talk about.

        Keep in mind, we've only had this thread reopened for a few days now, so we're taking advantage of the opportunity to use it again after a long absence. And in my case, I avoid mentioning Sam and Jack on most general threads, and I feel like this is one of the few places where I can criticize the way their relationship was written. So bear with us for a while as we air some gripes and long-stored up criticisms.

        On a side note, I'm disturbed that my lovely title suggestion has already caused some confusion.

        EDIT: another side note... I re-watched Evolution today, so I have a bit more balanced perspective on "that" scene. More on this later.
        I wouldn't fret over it, there is lots of renaming going on the board there's bound to be some confusion.

        But, yes, it's great to be able to let off steam again. And I think it generates some really interesting discussions, quite in depth discussions, which I enjoy whatever the topic, there's only so much fluff and squee I can take before I get bored and wander off. But a good debate will keep me happy for days. I still haven't finished my responses to some of the other posts but I'm off down the country to a dinner party in a few mins so it will have to wait until tomorrow night or at work on Monday.

        FF
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          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
          But even if others, most likely shippers, may interpret that scene to be romantic, why should that affect how you see the scene? If you don't see the ship (which I don't either in the context of the show) then I just don't look for it unless it's unavoidable, like the kiss in Window of Opportunity.

          Unless I'm given an on-screen reason not to, I just see the scenes between Sam and Jack (and between the rest of the SG-1), to be moments between friends, teammates, etc. Why go looking for or anticipating something you don't enjoy?
          I think a lot of my response to all things Jack/Sam (and after all, I can only speak for myself) is to do with how long I've been watching the show. Newer viewers probably have a totally different perspective, now that the show is in the can and canon closed (movies notwithstanding).

          We've lived through the endless "Should they/shouldn't they get together" interviews; the repetitive questions at cons; the countless teases from JM; the fan campaigns; the ship wars etc etc to the point where the mere mention of Sam and Jack in a sentence together puts up defences.

          TPTB intended us to see those embarrassing "Sir, about what I was trying to say earlier" scenes as shippy. No question. They were enticing the shippers into hanging on for their resolution. And they made it so blatant that those of us who wanted to ignore the whole sorry mess simply couldn't.

          The writing was dreadful. There wasn't a single shippy scene that was written for believable grown-ups. Fanfic has always dealt with the relationships between SG-1 far better than the writers ever did.

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            ...And just to prove that I'm not negative all the time, I have to agree with those upthread who mentioned Solitudes. It's terrifically teamy and gave me a Jack and Sam that I really enjoyed. Would that we'd had a lot more of that ...

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              I'd like to discuss the friendship aspect, too. Back in the earlier seasons, they were adorable friends/teammates. I'm thinking in...Broca Divide, I believe it was, with the whole Sam-goes-Neanderthal-and-attacks-Jack-in-tiny-tank-top fiasco - Jack asks near the end of the ep if her wound is healing up, and she says yes, it won't even leave a scar, and he teases her - good, otherwise you'd never be able to wear that sweet little tank top number again. I didn't find that shippy at all. It felt like - well, like a good-natured CO ribbing his 2IC about something embarrassing she did, or an older brother being gently mocking. It was cute. Solitudes was cute, too, with the 'it's my sidearm, I swear' stuff.

              These may have been more suggestive remarks than anything later-seasons Jack might have said, more blatantly sexual, but you can watch without thinking anything of them, because it's just joking between comrades and friends. I miss that Sam-and-Jack relationship, when they both worked well together and were certain of their places, without all the awkward undercurrents.

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                Wow! More than 4 pages since the thread re-opened a couple of days ago. Now, I'm off to catch up.
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                  Originally posted by jdjunkie View Post
                  I think a lot of my response to all things Jack/Sam (and after all, I can only speak for myself) is to do with how long I've been watching the show. Newer viewers probably have a totally different perspective, now that the show is in the can and canon closed (movies notwithstanding).

                  We've lived through the endless "Should they/shouldn't they get together" interviews; the repetitive questions at cons; the countless teases from JM; the fan campaigns; the ship wars etc etc to the point where the mere mention of Sam and Jack in a sentence together puts up defences.

                  TPTB intended us to see those embarrassing "Sir, about what I was trying to say earlier" scenes as shippy. No question. They were enticing the shippers into hanging on for their resolution. And they made it so blatant that those of us who wanted to ignore the whole sorry mess simply couldn't.

                  The writing was dreadful. There wasn't a single shippy scene that was written for believable grown-ups. Fanfic has always dealt with the relationships between SG-1 far better than the writers ever did.
                  In that case, I'm infinitely grateful I was able to see almost all 10 seasons of Stargate without once reading an interview or visiting a forum, the only information I got was what I saw on-screen.

                  Originally posted by fyere View Post
                  I'd like to discuss the friendship aspect, too. Back in the earlier seasons, they were adorable friends/teammates. I'm thinking in...Broca Divide, I believe it was, with the whole Sam-goes-Neanderthal-and-attacks-Jack-in-tiny-tank-top fiasco - Jack asks near the end of the ep if her wound is healing up, and she says yes, it won't even leave a scar, and he teases her - good, otherwise you'd never be able to wear that sweet little tank top number again. I didn't find that shippy at all. It felt like - well, like a good-natured CO ribbing his 2IC about something embarrassing she did, or an older brother being gently mocking. It was cute. Solitudes was cute, too, with the 'it's my sidearm, I swear' stuff.

                  These may have been more suggestive remarks than anything later-seasons Jack might have said, more blatantly sexual, but you can watch without thinking anything of them, because it's just joking between comrades and friends. I miss that Sam-and-Jack relationship, when they both worked well together and were certain of their places, without all the awkward undercurrents.
                  I loved the friendship in early seasons too, you gave some great examples. But I also see a similar sort of friendship continuing to the later seasons. Jack kinda teasing Sam about blowing up a sun in Exodus, or the bet in The Light, the phasers line in Redemption, Sam teasing mini-Jack in Fragile Balance, talking Simpsons and the crossword challenge in Lost City, discussing her evaluation and mission report in Zero Hour, etc.

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                    I really liked the early seasons as well, but the later ones were totally ruined, in my opinion...and I think the blatant S/J ship was one of the major reasons
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                      Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post

                      I loved the friendship in early seasons too, you gave some great examples. But I also see a similar sort of friendship continuing to the later seasons. Jack kinda teasing Sam about blowing up a sun in Exodus, or the bet in The Light, the phasers line in Redemption,
                      Those are good examples too. Jack's grin in The Light cracks me up every time.
                      I also like the exchange when they're in withdrawal. "That's "forget it, sir." "Oh, please. If you think I'm keeping *that* up if we're stuck here forever..." Doesn't exactly fit into friendship, but maybe Sam growing beyond being a green officer & those feelings coming out when the Light took away the check on her mouth.

                      Isn't it in Redemption that Sam counters the comment about phasers with her own about the ejection system? Definitely a relaxed relationship there.

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                        Originally posted by jckfan55 View Post
                        Those are good examples too. Jack's grin in The Light cracks me up every time.
                        I also like the exchange when they're in withdrawal. "That's "forget it, sir." "Oh, please. If you think I'm keeping *that* up if we're stuck here forever..." Doesn't exactly fit into friendship, but maybe Sam growing beyond being a green officer & those feelings coming out when the Light took away the check on her mouth.
                        I liked that argument in the Light as well, I wouldn't say it's so much dealing with their friendship as much as their working relationship. I agree I think it's a hint at Sam growing into her position as second-in-command and being willing to question Jack more. Though part of that probably did come from the Light's influence taking away her usual restraint.

                        I personally liked Sam's growth in that respect after becoming a Major, seeing her really find her footing as a military officer, so it was quite believable to me for her to take command of SG-1 in season 8. And I think it was complemented with Jack's increasing trust in her leadership, the 'nice command' remark in Evolution, trusting her in command in Lost City, his evaluation in Zero Hour.

                        Isn't it in Redemption that Sam counters the comment about phasers with her own about the ejection system? Definitely a relaxed relationship there.
                        Hehe, I forgot about the ejection system part, good recall.

                        I also saw it as a relaxed relationship, which is why it personally puzzles me when I see their interaction post-D/C labeled as continually tense and uncomfortable. Were there awkward moments, no question and not all ship related IMHO, but I also think those were balanced with relaxed moments as well.

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                          Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                          TPTB intended the scene to be 'shippy'.

                          The way the director framed, shot and paced the scene.
                          The music.
                          We, the audience, are cued by years of watching TV and film to many clues as to what we are supposed to take from a scene.
                          The whole ambiance was played as being romantic rather than camaraderie between co workers or soldiers.
                          As with the hug in Heroes and the lab scene in Evolution. These are professionals in the field, they are aware of the language of TV, they are skilled at using it (Stargate always had first rate cinematography, editing, music, these are seasoned professionals in their respective fields)

                          Had they shot it in another way, used different music, it would have had an entirely different, more palatable, effect.

                          FF
                          Now I haven't watch that episode in a long time, so I don't doubt the shippy cues were there, but I could actually tolerate that one scene in Threads as much as I hated other parts of that episode.

                          I had this to say about it back when it aired...

                          Actually, I had no problems with that particular scene because even if all these years they had not implied ship and blatantly thrown it in our faces at other times, I still believe Jack would have done the exact same thing for Sam. Her father was dying and he was offering a shoulder to cry on. So for the moment I took off my anti-ship glasses and ignored it in that particular scene. God knows it was meant to be shippy, but I had the fortitude to ignore it. Not so much for the rest of the episode.

                          I was angry that they drug Jacob into the whole ship fiasco, and then pretty much made that his dying declaration that he wants her to be happy with Jack. Even if the name wasn’t mentioned, it was implied. If they were going to kill Jacob, at least makes it more meaningful than that. At least Janet’s death was meaningful and not totally wasted, imo. I understood the point they were making with her death. Jacob was just used to advance an agenda. I’m gonna miss him.

                          Originally posted by Frostfox View Post
                          They missed out on a chance for some wonderful humour, she's commanding a mission with Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob, cue some Jack lines about Curly, Larry and Moe. But no, they must play up the romance, because, clearly, two warriors with over 200 years experience and the woman's father can't possibly protect her the way her man can.
                          Oh, what's that sizzling sound off screen? Why it's a terrorist electrocuting their team mate, nothing important.

                          FF
                          lol! Is that really how that scene fades out? Evolution 1&2 is another one of those episodes I tend to avoid.... That has got to be one of my most hated implied ship scenes in the series. Especially because of the weirdness of it.



                          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                          Unless I'm given an on-screen reason not to, I just see the scenes between Sam and Jack (and between the rest of the SG-1), to be moments between friends, teammates, etc. Why go looking for or anticipating something you don't enjoy?
                          Kind of hard to ignore when tptb whop you up side the head with it. Of course it is all in the eye of the beholder as to whether they exist or not. I didn't watch episodes actively scanning for S/J ship moments, but they were dang hard to ignore in seasons 7 and 8..for me anyway.

                          And what I detest so much about it is how Carter was portrayed throughout that whole mess. Imo, it did her character a major disservice while Jack skated away fairly untouched (course I was becoming disgruntled with Jack in S7/8 because I didn't like "dumb" Jack.)

                          I felt it was a complete cop-out to make that (relationship stuff with Pete and Jack) a main focus for Carter in those two seasons and pretend that was good character development for her. It was terrible and lazy writing, imo.

                          Originally posted by Callista View Post
                          There were Sam/Cam shippy moments in seasons 9 and 10!>!?
                          Well I didn't see them either course I wasn't looking for them either because I didn't think tptb would go there. I mean jeez they had already floated Carter around with practically everyone else over the years that I didn't think they would go there with Mitchell. And I don't think they did. Even though I thought Mitchell was jammed into the show, I did manage to buy the friendship (and only friendship) angle they were trying to sell between Carter and Mitchell.

                          Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                          In that case, I'm infinitely grateful I was able to see almost all 10 seasons of Stargate without once reading an interview or visiting a forum, the only information I got was what I saw on-screen.
                          In a way I'd say that makes you lucky.

                          I didn't get into Stargate fandom until sometime between season 6 and season 7. I lurked at the Skiffy boards for a short time and then found GateWorld a couple of weeks before Darren moved the board to this current site. I had watched the show in syndication starting with season 2, but was just a casual, but fairly loyal viewer of the show.

                          If I had just stayed a casual viewer and avoided fandom, I may not have cared or noticed the S/J ship stuff, but I can't say for certain because S7 was when they started to be more blatant about it on the show.

                          I have no doubts that fandom colors peoples' views and opinions, but it does present you with ideas that you may not have considered as a casual fan, but they are ideas that you might find yourself agreeing with.

                          For better or worse I do like reading other peoples' views about the show or otherwise I wouldn't be here. Though these days, I very rarely read the actual Stargate parts of this forum anymore.
                          Last edited by LoneStar1836; 28 March 2009, 05:14 PM.
                          IMO always implied.

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                            Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
                            And what I detest so much about it is how Carter was portrayed throughout that whole mess. Imo, it did her character a major disservice while Jack skated away fairly untouched (course I was becoming disgruntled with Jack in S7/8 because I didn't like "dumb" Jack.)

                            I felt it was a complete cop-out to make that (relationship stuff with Pete and Jack) a main focus for Carter in those two seasons and pretend that was good character development for her. It was terrible and lazy writing, imo.
                            I agree, I think the idea itself wasn't bad, but its execution didn't do Sam any favors at all. Part of it I kinda chalk up to Sam's inexperience/ineptitude when it comes to romantic relationships, but I think a lot of it was just poor writing. I would have much rather they steered some of that focus to Sam taking command of SG-1 and the team dealing with the new command structure in season 8.

                            In a way I'd say that makes you lucky.

                            I didn't get into Stargate fandom until sometime between season 6 and season 7. I lurked at the Skiffy boards for a short time and then found GateWorld a couple of weeks before Darren moved the board to this current site. I had watched the show in syndication starting with season 2, but was just a casual, but fairly loyal viewer of the show.

                            If I had just stayed a casual viewer and avoided fandom, I may not have cared or noticed the S/J ship stuff, but I can't say for certain because S7 was when they started to be more blatant about it on the show.

                            I have no doubts that fandom colors peoples' views and opinions, but it does present you with ideas that you may not have considered as a casual fan, but they are ideas that you might find yourself agreeing with.

                            For better or worse I do like reading other peoples' views about the show or otherwise I wouldn't be here. Though these days, I very rarely read the actual Stargate parts of this forum anymore.
                            I've really enjoyed fandom for the different perspectives and ideas it presents you, especially since most of my friends don't watch the shows I do so it's hard to find people to discuss things with. I know I wouldn't have nearly the appreciation I now have for the Teal'c character and Chris Judge's portrayal of him, had I stayed a casual fan.

                            But I do try to avoid or limit my reading of discussions before watching an episode because I want my first impression to be as unaffected by others' opinions as possible.

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                              Originally posted by EvenstarSRV View Post
                              I agree, I think the idea itself wasn't bad, but its execution didn't do Sam any favors at all. Part of it I kinda chalk up to Sam's inexperience/ineptitude when it comes to romantic relationships, but I think a lot of it was just poor writing. I would have much rather they steered some of that focus to Sam taking command of SG-1 and the team dealing with the new command structure in season 8.
                              I'm going more with the poor writing on this one because I don't see Sam as inexperienced in romantic relationships and I can't see why she'd be inept anymore (if she ever was). Before SG-1 she was apparently engaged to that Jonas Hanson guy and was smart enough to break it off. During SG-1 she had relationships with Martoof and Narim...not really serious, but enough to gain experience. And in the case of Martoof, she got the bonus of experiencing what appeared to be the healthy love between Lantash and Jolinar. I think she handled both of those pretty well and never seemed to be uncomfortable or at a loss as to what to say. She's just so confident in every other way that I don't understand why she'd be so lacking in confidence in her relationship with Jack and so unsure in her relationship with Pete. If they absolutely had to go there with S/J and keep it going, I can't imagine how a woman like Sam wouldn't be clear with her feelings for Jack after Divide and Conquer and sit down with him and make him be clear with her and then they could have made the necessary career adjustments to allow them to actually be together. I mean, Kerry laid it all out for Jack without any hemming and hawing around and he seemed to take it just fine. Is Kerry really that much stronger and level-headed of a person than Sam? Boy, I wouldn't have thought so in any other context.

                              And I could say the same for Jack. He seemed pretty natural and healthy with Sara and Kerry and Laira (the woman from 100 days). Would he really allow the situation with Sam to go on and on for years without being honest with her one way or the other?

                              I'd say Daniel and Sha're had a healthy relationship despite it's dubious beginning and Teal'c's various relationships seemed to be pretty open and fulfilling for both partners and when he did have trouble with Drey'ac they seemed to be able to talk about it openly with each other. Why would Jack and Sam be written so differently if not to string along the audience for years and years and years?

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                                Originally posted by LoneStar1836 View Post
                                ...I didn't think they would go there with Mitchell. And I don't think they did. Even though I thought Mitchell was jammed into the show, I did manage to buy the friendship (and only friendship) angle they were trying to sell between Carter and Mitchell.

                                In a way I'd say that makes you lucky.
                                IIRC, in Ripple Effect PDL was going to try to sell a shippy moment between alternate Sam and Cam, but AT put her foot down. And I don't think the writers actually intended it either. Thank goodness.

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