Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[jckfan55]

But still... there's something very awkward about it. Why is Sam just sitting there quietly while Jack talks about rescuing Daniel from dangerous terrorists? And is that an actual pout? Why is Jack looking so uncomfortable? Shouldn't he be concerned about his upcoming mission? Should he be planning for this rescue mission he's taken on? And why would either Jack or Sam be worried about Sam's mission when she has Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Jacob with her? That's more combat experience right there than Jack and Sam put together. And if this scene isn't meant to have some weird undertone, why is it even there? From a plot stand-point, it could have been handled much simpler as a four second scene where Jack tells Sam and Teal'c that he's leaving and wishes them good luck as we walks into an elevator.

First, apologies for the multiple posts. forgot to mulitquote and so many good posts to respond to...

yeah, that scene in Evolution is odd. No reason for that info exchange to be done that way.
I could have even seen him come to her lab to let her know the plan. She says she wishes she were going along to help rescue Daniel, but they agree she's needed on the other mission more. They both wish each other good luck.

[Frostfox]

First, apologies for the multiple posts. forgot to mulitquote and so many good posts to respond to...

yeah, that scene in Evolution is odd. No reason for that info exchange to be done that way.
I could have even seen him come to her lab to let her know the plan. She says she wishes she were going along to help rescue Daniel, but they agree she's needed on the other mission more. They both wish each other good luck.

They missed out on a chance for some wonderful humour, she's commanding a mission with Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob, cue some Jack lines about Curly, Larry and Moe. But no, they must play up the romance, because, clearly, two warriors with over 200 years experience and the woman's father can't possibly protect her the way her man can.
Oh, what's that sizzling sound off screen? Why it's a terrorist electrocuting their team mate, nothing important.

FF

[Callista]

They missed out on a chance for some wonderful humour, she's commanding a mission with Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob, cue some Jack lines about Curly, Larry and Moe. But no, they must play up the romance, because, clearly, two warriors with over 200 years experience and the woman's father can't possibly protect her the way her man can.
Oh, what's that sizzling sound off screen? Why it's a terrorist electrocuting their team mate, nothing important.FF

Now I know I need some form of therapy because that made me actually laugh out loud. Poor Daniel! He's out there with zombies and car batteries and Dr. Lee who is giving up all the information that Daniel went through so much not to spill and great big knives and rather large cockroaches probably wondering why he was sent to a very dangerous part of the world with not so much as a pea-shooter to find and bring back top secret potentially dangerous and world saving alien technology while his best buddies are making eyes at each other over some sort of spark machine that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the story. I don't know what you guys are talking about! That's a GREAT scene!!!!

(I do like the commentary with it though when AT says something like: "We will never shoot a scene of me that close up ever again!" I love her commentaries. She seems like such a nice person.)

[jckfan55]

They missed out on a chance for some wonderful humour, she's commanding a mission with Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob, cue some Jack lines about Curly, Larry and Moe. But no, they must play up the romance, because, clearly, two warriors with over 200 years experience and the woman's father can't possibly protect her the way her man can.
Oh, what's that sizzling sound off screen? Why it's a terrorist electrocuting their team mate, nothing important.
FF

LOL I also thought the end was odd.
Jack says "Nice command." And Sam says something like "well we all survived" as if he was criticizing. huh? Or was she trying to be self effacing?
Then they go off to lunch. Not necessarily shippy, but always struck me as odd.

[Frostfox]

Now I know I need some form of therapy because that made me actually laugh out loud. Poor Daniel! He's out there with zombies and car batteries and Dr. Lee who is giving up all the information that Daniel went through so much not to spill and great big knives and rather large cockroaches probably wondering why he was sent to a very dangerous part of the world with not so much as a pea-shooter to find and bring back top secret potentially dangerous and world saving alien technology while his best buddies are making eyes at each other over some sort of spark machine that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the story. I don't know what you guys are talking about! That's a GREAT scene!!!!

(I do like the commentary with it though when AT says something like: "We will never shoot a scene of me that close up ever again!" I love her commentaries. She seems like such a nice person.)

Exactly. Why on earth were he and Lee out there alone in the first place. It's not just the ridiculous S/J relationship which drives me nuts about SG1, there are plenty of other writing and directorial choices to make me roll my eyes.

And, in an industry famed for it's egos, Amanda does seem to be a nice normal person, which is a refreshing change.

FF

[EvenstarSRV]

TPTB intended the scene to be 'shippy'.

The way the director framed, shot and paced the scene.
The music.
We, the audience, are cued by years of watching TV and film to many clues as to what we are supposed to take from a scene.
The whole ambiance was played as being romantic rather than camaraderie between co workers or soldiers.
As with the hug in Heroes and the lab scene in Evolution. These are professionals in the field, they are aware of the language of TV, they are skilled at using it (Stargate always had first rate cinematography, editing, music, these are seasoned professionals in their respective fields)

Had they shot it in another way, used different music, it would have had an entirely different, more palatable, effect.

Perhaps I'm just tone-deaf as to the framing, pacing, and musical cues, but I just didn't see any romantic overtones in that scene. I read the relatively slow pace, close-ups, and soft music to be appropriate for the serious, tragic moment.

Years of conditioning caused by writers laying on the ship with all the subtlety of sledgehammer. To the point where when the pair of them are in a two-shot you're on tenterhooks waiting for the shippy music and the inevitable uncomfortable moment.

Because their friendship, if indeed there is a friendship, is so tainted by the ship that it's not easy to see past it.

I could go on ...

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily romantic, but many of us feel like so much of their relationship is "tainted" by ship it's easy to see why someone would interpret it that way. Personally, i saw this one as more comfort to a friend. Maybe because I don't want to see it. And rarely watch the episode if I can help it.

But even if others, most likely shippers, may interpret that scene to be romantic, why should that affect how you see the scene? If you don't see the ship (which I don't either in the context of the show) then I just don't look for it unless it's unavoidable, like the kiss in Window of Opportunity.

Unless I'm given an on-screen reason not to, I just see the scenes between Sam and Jack (and between the rest of the SG-1), to be moments between friends, teammates, etc. Why go looking for or anticipating something you don't enjoy?

Sigh, when I saw this thread I was hoping for discussion of Sam and Jack outside of the ship angle, of them as teammates and friends. How Jack went from having to accept Sam as a team member to trusting her implicitly, how Sam may have felt about stepping into Jack's shoes as SG-1 leader in season 8, how their working relationship may have been affected by their disagreements in Scorched Earth or in the aftermath of Shades of Gray.

Instead I've seen almost nothing but ship discussion, albeit from a negative perspective.

[Callista]

Seriously? What about a man seeing a teammate (and friend) going through an extremely difficult time and trying to offer her some comfort, and a woman appreciating the concern from her friend and thanking him for it?

How is Sam thanking Jack for being there for her in this difficult time automatically translate into her thinking about her love life? Or Jack putting his arm around Sam's shoulders translate into breaking regulations?

I can understand shippers reading possible romantic feelings into scenes like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why anti-shippers would do the same.

I haven't watched that episode (Threads) in quite a while, but I'm one who doesn't see it as shippy. To me, it's no different from Teal'c comforting Sam in Paradise Lost or Unending or Heroes (hmmm. There are a lot of Teal'c comforting Sam scenes, aren't there?), Jack comforting Daniel in Need, Jack and Teal'c's quick pats on the shoulder to Daniel in Secrets or Sam comforting Jack in Solitudes (which I know some people do see as shippy). In fact, there are many, many scenes that I would never have seen as shippy if I didn't read about it here on GW. To the point that when I first saw Divide and Conquer I was like "What the heck are they talking about!?? Where did that come from?" Which is kind of my point when I say that I just don't see any sort of romantic thing between the two of them other than perhaps a physical attraction. But would two mature, strong individuals pine away for years over a simple physical attraction?

[Liv]

I think the more interesting relationship is the intense and deep bond among the whole team. think of what they've dealt with together. They would die for each other. As Sam said in one episode "We were a TEAM, Teal'c. No one can know what we meant to each other." They love each other, but not in a romantic way.

Bingo! That's it exactly! That's what attracted me to Stargate, and that's the dynamic that I like to see the writers explore. There is so much interesting material to explore when they focus on the team, and the ship just felt like an unnecessary tangent to me. It wasn't part of the core focus of Stargate as I saw it.

I totally agree that all of the team members love each other in a non-romantic way. But I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding the idea of "non-romantic love." TV shows present such a cliched version of "love" that viewers come to expect it. I think that's why TV shows often try to create love interests where they are unnecessary or even distracting.

Oh, I so agree with all of this! This is one of the main reasons why I was so drawn to Stargate, too.

The TEAM! The totally awesome TEAM!

And the beautiful and wonderful notion that people can love each other in a platonic way. Well, of course they can, but like Khentkawes said, a lot of viewers automatically seem to expect that there always be UST and romance between characters in tv shows. I know that for me, non-romantic love or platonic love can be so, SO much more powerful than just another "will they/won't they get together" coupling.

But TPTB still feel the need to puzzle it in somewhere in between the story they're trying to tell, with various degrees of success, or rather lack of success, and the characters end up suffering for it. Like Sam and Jack did. Like the whole team did.

[jckfan55]

Sigh, when I saw this thread I was hoping for discussion of Sam and Jack outside of the ship angle, of them as teammates and friends. How Jack went from having to accept Sam as a team member to trusting her implicitly, how Sam may have felt about stepping into Jack's shoes as SG-1 leader in season 8, how their working relationship may have been affected by their disagreements in Scorched Earth or in the aftermath of Shades of Gray.

Instead I've seen almost nothing but ship discussion, albeit from a negative perspective.

one of the main ideas of this thread, though is that it is a "safe" place for us to talk about our dislike of shipping Sam and Jack. But I'd like to talk about the Sam-Jack relationship in a non-shippy way too.

One of my favorite episodes is Solitudes and I don't see ship there. I see a still somewhat green Captain being tested by trying circumstances and her CO having confidence in her. I see it as a very teamy episode.

[EvenstarSRV]

I haven't watched that episode (Threads) in quite a while, but I'm one who doesn't see it as shippy. To me, it's no different from Teal'c comforting Sam in Paradise Lost or Unending or Heroes (hmmm. There are a lot of Teal'c comforting Sam scenes, aren't there?), Jack comforting Daniel in Need, Jack and Teal'c's quick pats on the shoulder to Daniel in Secrets or Sam comforting Jack in Solitudes (which I know some people do see as shippy). In fact, there are many, many scenes that I would never have seen as shippy if I didn't read about it here on GW. To the point that when I first saw Divide and Conquer I was like "What the heck are they talking about!?? Where did that come from?" Which is kind of my point when I say that I just don't see any sort of romantic thing between the two of them other than perhaps a physical attraction. But would two mature, strong individuals pine away for years over a simple physical attraction?

Exactly, I had no idea so many thought the brief Evolution scene was considered shippy until I came here, it just never occurred to me. Of course, I could say the same about all the Jack/Daniel slash moments, or the Sam/Cam shippy moments in season 9 and 10.

But because I don't see romance between Sam and Jack in the context of show, I also don't see the two pining after each other. I think every relationship as ebbs and flows, things may have strayed towards the romantic in D&C, but then they shifted away. I can't see Sam dating Pete or Jack dating Kerry if they were still pining after each other.

[EvenstarSRV]

One of my favorite episodes is Solitudes and I don't see ship there. I see a still somewhat green Captain being tested by trying circumstances and her CO having confidence in her. I see it as a very teamy episode.

Me too, I loved Solitudes. I think it was probably the experience that solidified Sam's place on SG-1 to Jack. She'd been the only team member he hadn't chosen, and I think that trying experience relying on each other survival helped to deepen their bonds as teammates.

[Callista]

Exactly, I had no idea so many thought the brief Evolution scene was considered shippy until I came here, it just never occurred to me. Of course, I could say the same about all the Jack/Daniel slash moments, or the Sam/Cam shippy moments in season 9 and 10.

But because I don't see romance between Sam and Jack in the context of show, I also don't see the two pining after each other. I think every relationship as ebbs and flows, things may have strayed towards the romantic in D&C, but then they shifted away. I can't see Sam dating Pete or Jack dating Kerry if they were still pining after each other.

There were Sam/Cam shippy moments in seasons 9 and 10!>!?

I agree with you on the Pete and Kerry thing but yet there Sam is standing in Jack's backyard and even Kerry states that it's awkward. And there she is on that ship in Grace hallucinating about Jack and kissing him. That's what is so weird about the relationship to me. There will be a whole bunch of episodes where it's completely non-existant and then it will be brought up as if it's been lurking there under the surface the whole time.

I don't know that I would have thought the Evolution scene was shippy if I hadn't seen so many people who did, but I did think it was kind of weird and out of place. And I think it was one of those scenes that made me think the team as a whole didn't have the feel that it had in the first three seasons.

[Frostfox]

Perhaps I'm just tone-deaf as to the framing, pacing, and musical cues, but I just didn't see any romantic overtones in that scene. I read the relatively slow pace, close-ups, and soft music to be appropriate for the serious, tragic moment.

All art forms, TV, Film, Comics, Fine Art, have a unique language. It's culture specific - different in Japan to Europe to the US. It's a learned language, for example Japanese comics use conventions for expressing emotions which are completely different to those used by an Italian comic or an American one.
And it's a learned language just as much as the written word. My friends who don't have a TV have difficulty following shows such as The West Wing when they watch them on DVD because the level of sophistication of TV language in such a show is quite high and due to lack of exposure, my friends are not as used to that language as someone who watches a lot of TV would be.

But even if others, most likely shippers, may interpret that scene to be romantic, why should that affect how you see the scene? If you don't see the ship (which I don't either in the context of the show) then I just don't look for it unless it's unavoidable, like the kiss in Window of Opportunity.

Unless I'm given an on-screen reason not to, I just see the scenes between Sam and Jack (and between the rest of the SG-1), to be moments between friends, teammates, etc. Why go looking for or anticipating something you don't enjoy?

I didn't 'see' the 'ship until it lost all subtlety and was rammed down my throat in later seasons.

Sigh, when I saw this thread I was hoping for discussion of Sam and Jack outside of the ship angle, of them as teammates and friends. How Jack went from having to accept Sam as a team member to trusting her implicitly, how Sam may have felt about stepping into Jack's shoes as SG-1 leader in season 8, how their working relationship may have been affected by their disagreements in Scorched Earth or in the aftermath of Shades of Gray.

Instead I've seen almost nothing but ship discussion, albeit from a negative perspective.

I'm sorry this thread isn't what you were looking for, those are valid points of conversation about SG1 but we are on topic, this is what the thread has been about for five years now, it's just had a name change recently.

FF

[Frostfox]

Exactly, I had no idea so many thought the brief Evolution scene was considered shippy until I came here, it just never occurred to me. Of course, I could say the same about all the Jack/Daniel slash moments, or the Sam/Cam shippy moments in season 9 and 10.

But because I don't see romance between Sam and Jack in the context of show, I also don't see the two pining after each other. I think every relationship as ebbs and flows, things may have strayed towards the romantic in D&C, but then they shifted away. I can't see Sam dating Pete or Jack dating Kerry if they were still pining after each other.

Where as I do see romance between the characters and don't approve of it in the context of a team show.
Which is why you don't see some scenes as romantic and I do.

But neither of us is 'right' or 'wrong' - your view of the show is as valid as mine. It's just different.

FF

[Frostfox]

Oh, I so agree with all of this! This is one of the main reasons why I was so drawn to Stargate, too.

The TEAM! The totally awesome TEAM!

And the beautiful and wonderful notion that people can love each other in a platonic way. Well, of course they can, but like Khentkawes said, a lot of viewers automatically seem to expect that there always be UST and romance between characters in tv shows. I know that for me, non-romantic love or platonic love can be so, SO much more powerful than just another "will they/won't they get together" coupling.

But TPTB still feel the need to puzzle it in somewhere in between the story they're trying to tell, with various degrees of success, or rather lack of success, and the characters end up suffering for it. Like Sam and Jack did. Like the whole team did.

There is come kind of magic between the 'big four'. I liked Jonas, I quite liked Vala, I was growing to like Cam but the original team had a magic.

One thing I would have loved to have seen? Using the different universes we got to see in the ten year run to mix it up a bit. To see a universe where Sam is paired with Daniel. Or Teal'c with Jack. I wish SG1 had been a little more bold, had stretched itself a little more.

FF