Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[fyere]

Oh dear - I suppose I should have spoilered that - sorry!

Oh, no, I love spoilers. I neeeed spoilers. I was just going 'ew, rumors of S/J, do not want'.

They make a mess of it, I don't buy it, easy as that.
More than any potential 'romance' I'm more worried that all we will get is Joker!Jack, I'm concerned that the writers have forgotten how to write Jack well. There was some serious Jack in The Shroud, fighting for Daniel's life but all we got of Jack in Continuum (not ALT Jack) was the buffoon, the joker. Which, when faced with Ba'al, felt particularly shallow, give Ba'al and Jack's history. Some joking, as self defense I can see, but this was too much and too surface; give RDA some depth to play with the character or all he will do is cruise and all we will get is a shadow of who Jack used to be.

Yes; he needs material he will be forced to sink his teeth into or risk ruining the whole thing with inappropriate silliness. I think RDA was given too much leeway back in S8, when he cut back his hours and just started not caring - anyone else who'd phoned it in like that would have been promptly 'written out', but he had pull, so he could basically do whatever he wanted. JokerJack was probably not the writers' fault, but them having to write *around* RDA/write his 'attitude' in, since he'd do whatever he felt like doing anyway, regardless of the script, as well we know.

Hopefully, with a movie riding on him, he'll pull up his socks and take it seriously - and hopefully, if he doesn't, the showrunners will *make* him. And hopefully it isn't ruined with an overdose of ship - I never got the impression RDA was particularly enthused by the idea of S/J...

[Frostfox]

Oh, no, I love spoilers. I neeeed spoilers. I was just going 'ew, rumors of S/J, do not want'.

We so need a Jack/Sam LOL! Do. Not. Want.
Hm... Let me go ponder this, Pinky.

Yes; he needs material he will be forced to sink his teeth into or risk ruining the whole thing with inappropriate silliness. I think RDA was given too much leeway back in S8, when he cut back his hours and just started not caring - anyone else who'd phoned it in like that would have been promptly 'written out', but he had pull, so he could basically do whatever he wanted. JokerJack was probably not the writers' fault, but them having to write *around* RDA/write his 'attitude' in, since he'd do whatever he felt like doing anyway, regardless of the script, as well we know.

Hopefully, with a movie riding on him, he'll pull up his socks and take it seriously - and hopefully, if he doesn't, the showrunners will *make* him. And hopefully it isn't ruined with an overdose of ship - I never got the impression RDA was particularly enthused by the idea of S/J...

It's so frustrating!
I've seen it before with writers. One of my friends wrote the best selling comic for over a decade in the '80's. He's a good writer but towards the end of his run, it was clear that his editor (who had been editing him for most of that time and had become a personal friend to boot) wasn't editing him, he had pretty much free range and it began to show.
Editors and directors and the like are more important than we sometimes like to think; they can focus and guide and push the creative person into great things.
RDA can be pure gold. But he needs focusing. This will be Jack's last hurrah, it would be very sad if it ends in a shippy whimper rather than a bang.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I never got the impression RDA was particularly enthused by the idea of S/J...

What gave it away? The distant "I don't want to be here, send for the prune juice, stat!" look that always came over Jack whenever the shippy music chimed in?

I never got the idea RDA was overly enthused about the storyline. AU Jack and Sam were supposed to share a kiss in There But for the Grace of God and RDA nixed that and changed it to a hug; he also changed a line of dialogue in 2010; he was supposed to say "Give her my love" but he changed it to "Give her my best."

I'm hoping he has similar sensibilities with anything remotely shippy in the third movie.

[Frostfox]

What gave it away? The distant "I don't want to be here, send for the prune juice, stat!" look that always came over Jack whenever the shippy music chimed in?

I never got the idea RDA was overly enthused about the storyline. AU Jack and Sam were supposed to share a kiss in There But for the Grace of God and RDA nixed that and changed it to a hug; he also changed a line of dialogue in 2010; he was supposed to say "Give her my love" but he changed it to "Give her my best."

I'm hoping he has similar sensibilities with anything remotely shippy in the third movie.

As I said, I think it was because of his respect for the US AF, it's a pity the writers didn't have as much respect as he did.

Spoiler:

A man brimming with adoration for his twu wuv or suffering chronic indigestion? I will let you decide. Or an actor thinking that these are two sworn officers of the USAF breaking the frat regs here?

Not helped by Sam is clinging on to his hand for dear life in case he tries to make a break for it.

Honestly, some of the directing choices begger belief, do they really want to make Sam look so desperate? Her father is dying, her love life should be the farthest thing from her mind.

FF

[silly sally]

What gave it away? The distant "I don't want to be here, send for the prune juice, stat!" look that always came over Jack whenever the shippy music chimed in?

I never got the idea RDA was overly enthused about the storyline. AU Jack and Sam were supposed to share a kiss in There But for the Grace of God and RDA nixed that and changed it to a hug; he also changed a line of dialogue in 2010; he was supposed to say "Give her my love" but he changed it to "Give her my best."

I'm hoping he has similar sensibilities with anything remotely shippy in the third movie.

Even he did he's not an EP anymore

[EvenstarSRV]

I suppose it depends on how you define the difference between friends and co-workers. I can see Jack and Sam as friends in the context of work, but not as friends outside of work, if that makes any sense. I agree with you that they care about each other (like they all do), they tease, they joke, they probably swap stories about military experiences. But I can't see them getting together outside of work, or even talking about extremely personal issues (I can't see them ever talking about their experiences as hosts, for example, mostly because I don't think Jack would be open to having such a conversation).

I can't see them talking about extremely personal issues much either, though in The Tok'ra is was hinted that they talked a bit about Sam's Jolinar experience. But then, I can't see Jack seriously talking personal issues with anyone on the team, it's just not the kind of man he is I think, but I don't think that means he's not good friends with anyone on the team.

Basically, I've found in my own life that there's a difference between "work-friends" and "personal-friends." I work in an academic setting and I take classes in the same academic institution. I have colleagues that I see two to three times a week, and I call them "friends" but I would never do anything with them outside of the academic setting because we don't have anything in common outside of where we work/attend classes. So in that sense, we're more of friendly colleagues than personal friends. That's kind of how I see Jack and Sam. They certainly have a level of trust, respect, and camaraderie, but it's rooted firmly in their job, not in their personal lives. At least, that's my take on it.

I see the same differences between work-friends and personal-friends, but I've also had the experience where work-friends become personal friends. You start out only having a job or class in common, but the relationships you build in that context can sometimes grow beyond being just co-workers or classmates.

That's personally how I see the friendships between all of SG-1, their camaraderie was rooted in their jobs but then grew from there into broader friendships. I can't see SG-1 at Jack's house talking about the Simpsons in Lost City if they weren't all friends.

There is some evidence that they must spend at least a little bit of time together off-base (Ascension and Upgrades are two examples), but I just can't see the two of them spending time alone together outside of work. If they're doing something outside of the SGC, I always imagine that it's a team-oriented activity, not just Sam and Jack going out for coffee or something. But my reasons for thinking that way are probably related to the whole chain-of-command squick. I want to see their relationship as professional, and to keep that professionalism, I don't think they should be spending a lot of time alone together off-base. I always assumed that Jack would be very conscious of making sure their relationship seemed "appropriate" and that he might even be a bit old-fashioned in that way (although I freely admit, that could just be my personal bias seeping in).

But doesn't spending some time together as a team suggest that Sam and Jack can be friends outside of work, or do they have to be doing something alone together to be considered friends? I have people who I consider to be friends but we don't generally hang out alone, it's usually in the company of others.

I see moments like Jack teasing Sam about speeding and humming in Chimera, or Sam teasing Jack about making omelettes with beer in Citizen Joe to be suggestions that they know about each other outside of a purely working context. Same with Jack teasing Teal'c about Star Wars, or Sam talking about sci-fi movies with Daniel, or Daniel checking out Teal'c's first apartment.

One of the main things that drew me to Stargate was that I saw these people as being more than just teammates, they were also friends. Sam and Jack have the chain-of-command issue, but as long as Daniel and Teal'c were on the Air Force payroll, they were also under Jack's (as well as Sam's to an extent) command, but I don't think that necessarily means that they're all limited to having only professional relationships with each other.

[EvenstarSRV]

As I said, I think it was because of his respect for the US AF, it's a pity the writers didn't have as much respect as he did.

Spoiler:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/frostfox/Threads_2705.jpg
A man brimming with adoration for his twu wuv or suffering chronic indigestion? I will let you decide. Or an actor thinking that these are two sworn officers of the USAF breaking the frat regs here?

Not helped by Sam is clinging on to his hand for dear life in case he tries to make a break for it.

Honestly, some of the directing choices begger belief, do they really want to make Sam look so desperate? Her father is dying, her love life should be the farthest thing from her mind.

Seriously? What about a man seeing a teammate (and friend) going through an extremely difficult time and trying to offer her some comfort, and a woman appreciating the concern from her friend and thanking him for it?

How is Sam thanking Jack for being there for her in this difficult time automatically translate into her thinking about her love life? Or Jack putting his arm around Sam's shoulders translate into breaking regulations?

I can understand shippers reading possible romantic feelings into scenes like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why anti-shippers would do the same.

[Frostfox]

There's a veritable feast of thinky stuff on these pages, I'm barely scratching the surface here!
Several snips to save bandwidth.

Though the focus of the shippy episodes is more often on Sam, I always got the feeling that the writers saw the ship from Jack's point of view—that Sam was this prize that Jack yearned for, and Sam should just stop playing around and get with him already. Did we ever get any hints as to why Sam was supposed to love Jack this much? Or was she just supposed to, because he loved her (for obvious reasons)?

I shudder to think that the writers would objectify the female member of their cast in such a way. And no, they never gave us any reason other than it being written in the star, which is so cliché.

That's my number 2 gripe with the ship.

Number 1 is simply that I think it did real damage to the team aspect of the show...which is what I really liked about the show in the first place.

Number 2 is that I really don't see where Jack and Sam have anything in common other than their shared work experience...something that Teal'c and Daniel and actually a lot of other people at the SGC have as well. They're both attractive, but beyond that why would Sam want Jack to the point of risking her hard-earned career? He's never seemed particularly interested in her personality, IMO. He doesn't seem to have a clue when it comes to her personal or professional interests. And frankly, she doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in his hobbies either with the possible exception of astronomy/star-gazing. What would they do together outside of bed? I guess they're both supposed to be pilots, but neither of them seems all that jazzed by that either. I can't imagine them liking the same books or movies or even restaurants...unless there is some restaurant that serves nothing but blue jell-o and pie

I don't know, I just don't see it. But then, I can't think of any television show lead character romances that I've been in favor of. I think TV shows just naturally say lead man + lead woman = great TV show!! And I almost always think just the opposite.

If they had written the relationship in such a way that I could believe in it, if they showed a sensible, believable, mature relationship blooming, it might have been another matter. There would still have been obstacles (insummountable ones in my eyes - the Regulations, the age difference, the Oedipal nature of Sam's attachment to someone so like her husband, the damage to the team dynamic) but at least they wouldn't have made both characters look so ridiculous.

The TV couples I have liked the best over the years have been the couples where, not only were they "in love", they were also each other's best friends. I could never believe that of Jack and Sam.

They don't come over as even knowing each other, best friends isn't even in the same ball park. The writers can hit us over the head, trying to convince us of the elusive 'chemistry' but they can't make us see something which is so tenuous, it's barely there.

Anyway, I think SG-1 just fell into that TV show trap where you can't have men and women working together without eventually having them hook up even though there's nothing to base it on. Which is a shame, because I thought that was one of their great strengths as a show, that Sam could be an equal member of the team and that they could just have a really wonderful relationship between four friends who were faced with unbelievable circumstances each week.

Amanda said it best when she told the writers to write Sam as one of the boys and she would feminise her. So we go from a fab, intelligent, warrior, who happens to be a beautiful woman to a flustered teenager is a purple twin set and pearls, stammering as she tries to gatecrash her boss' BBQ with his girlfriend to confront him once again with her feelings.
Excuse me while I hit my head against this brick wall until the pain goes away.

It's still a major squick for me. Something about the whole power dynamics or something - it just really bugs me. Kind of like a teacher/student relationship I guess. Or something. Sometimes it can be downplayed. If the writers play it more as a partnership/friendship, then....maybe. But mostly not.

The squick is twofold.
There is the matter of the oaths Jack and Sam took as serving officers in the USAF. They don't physically breech those but they sure come close to skirting the line way too often for me to be comfortable with.
Then there is the power dynamic between an officer and a subordinate. Particularly when they have been working together for 7-8 years. Those kind of patterns become ingrained and I can only see it ending badly. There are so few male/female mentor/pupil relationships on TV, it would have been so refreshing, so innovative to see one on SG1. And they could have kept it understated enough for those who wanted to read something more into it so everyone is happy.

FF

[Frostfox]

Seriously? What about a man seeing a teammate (and friend) going through an extremely difficult time and trying to offer her some comfort, and a woman appreciating the concern from her friend and thanking him for it?

How is Sam thanking Jack for being there for her in this difficult time automatically translate into her thinking about her love life? Or Jack putting his arm around Sam's shoulders translate into breaking regulations?

I can understand shippers reading possible romantic feelings into scenes like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why anti-shippers would do the same.

TPTB intended the scene to be 'shippy'.

The way the director framed, shot and paced the scene.
The music.
We, the audience, are cued by years of watching TV and film to many clues as to what we are supposed to take from a scene.
The whole ambiance was played as being romantic rather than camaraderie between co workers or soldiers.
As with the hug in Heroes and the lab scene in Evolution. These are professionals in the field, they are aware of the language of TV, they are skilled at using it (Stargate always had first rate cinematography, editing, music, these are seasoned professionals in their respective fields)

Had they shot it in another way, used different music, it would have had an entirely different, more palatable, effect.

FF

[jdjunkie]

I can understand shippers reading possible romantic feelings into scenes like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why anti-shippers would do the same.

Years of conditioning caused by writers laying on the ship with all the subtlety of sledgehammer. To the point where when the pair of them are in a two-shot you're on tenterhooks waiting for the shippy music and the inevitable uncomfortable moment.

Because their friendship, if indeed there is a friendship, is so tainted by the ship that it's not easy to see past it.

I could go on ...

[Khentkawes]

hmmmm... I tried to minimize the quoting here, but there were so many good points...

Ditto the scene in Sam's lab in Evolution part one, when Jack comes to tell her he's going to go get Daniel.
That scene should have been so interesting - Sam was going on a dangerous mission but she was going in the company of three of the best warriors the SGC had (Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob). It should have been Jack trying to give her a pep talk about leading such a... forceful group and the dynamics of having people like your father and ancient warriors under your command. And Sam's worry should have been about her best friend, her 'science twin' and her CO going out on a risky mission to rescue him. Instead it was all shot with Vaseline on the lens and was all about deeply meaningful glances between star-crossed lovers. Excuse me while I hurl.

I think the Evolution scene grates even more than the one from Heroes for me. Heroes, I can assume that it's just Sam's grief over losing Janet and her worry over losing her CO. Besides, if you were a Sam/Teal'c shipper, you'd find plenty of evidence in this episode. So I can ignore that. But in Evolution, it just grates on me. And I fully admit that I'm not objective about this scene either. The first time I watched Evolution, I barely knew who all the characters were (seriously, it was one of the first episodes I watched, and I think the first episode I saw on the original airing date, rather than in re-runs). But by the time I saw it a second time, I'd already wandered around in online fandom enough to read all the comments from those who didn't like S/J. So I never really had a chance to watch it without those comments in the back of my mind.

But still... there's something very awkward about it. Why is Sam just sitting there quietly while Jack talks about rescuing Daniel from dangerous terrorists? And is that an actual pout? Why is Jack looking so uncomfortable? Shouldn't he be concerned about his upcoming mission? Should he be planning for this rescue mission he's taken on? And why would either Jack or Sam be worried about Sam's mission when she has Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Jacob with her? That's more combat experience right there than Jack and Sam put together. And if this scene isn't meant to have some weird undertone, why is it even there? From a plot stand-point, it could have been handled much simpler as a four second scene where Jack tells Sam and Teal'c that he's leaving and wishes them good luck as we walks into an elevator.

This man lost his son, lost his family; that is a life changing experience. You don’t ‘get over’ losing your son, particularly in the manner in which Charlie died. You do get on with life, you heal but it will always be a raw wound for Jack. It’s so off topic that Sam found out about it off Daniel, so, in Lost City, when the man is dying, having sacrificed his mind to save the planet (again), asking about Sara (who is forever linked to Charlie, hence Sara and Jack’s marriage failing) is just, well, words fail me. I don’t want to think of Sam, beautiful in soul and mind and body, being that clueless about the feelings of someone she’s so close to, I just don’t. It’s not romantic, bringing up his lost family like that, it’s vile and I wonder what kind of mind finds something like that to be romantic when they were writing the scene and when they came to shoot it? The whole scene is stilted and unreal, forced. And what gets me is that they tell us so much about Sam, Jack, the rest of the team and the tensions between them without realizing. For example, Sam and Jack are awkward in the scene, Jack is closed off and unwilling, even in the face of death to reach out and come to terms with what ever is between them. You can read that as him being self sacrificing; being unwilling to burden Sam with his love for her when he’s doomed to die, but that’s awfully melodramatic and stilted and based on theories of love, rather than observing normal human interactions. Sam looks stupefyingly gauche and awkward in Jack’s personal space; like a deer in the headlights, we get no impression that she is used to being with him in a social situation or in his home. And then, in breeze Daniel and Teal’c, with just ‘a shave and a haircut’ knock on the door. This says things about the team dynamic which I am sure were not the intent of the writer.

You bring up some good points that I hadn't thought of. I always felt the scene was awkward, so I just attributed Sam's comment about Sara to the overall sense of awkwardness... like she was trying desperately to find something to say. But you're right, it makes no sense if this is supposed to be a "romantic" moment. And it was incredibly insensitive of Sam.

you know the other thing that I thought was weird? Jack seems hesitant to even let her in the door, let alone to let her stay. And then he gives her a beer and tells her she has to stay until it wears off? His words and his body language seem to be telling two different stories.

She’s the girl! It’s twu wuv, don’t’cha’know? All us with the xy chromosome throw all common sense, logic and taste out of the window when confronted with the testosterone whiff of a Real Man ™

Oh, hel-looo. I didn't even know a thread like this existed on GW.

Well, for a while, it didn't exist... but it's back now with a new name.

Like the writers just decided that "hey, let's throw a shippy scene in here and then let's get on with the story". I never felt that way when I watched shows like Babylon 5 or Farscape. The 'shippy scenes' never felt like they were specifically designed to be just 'shippy scenes', they felt like they were a natural progression of the storyline and the characters. (I'm thinking mainly of Sheridan/Delenn and John/Aeryn, here).

Never watched B5, so I can't comment... but as for Farsape, you've hit the nail on the head. I always believed the John/Aeryn scenes. Sure, towards the end there, they had to start making up reasons to keep John and Aeryn apart, so yes, they drew it out borderline forever. But at least I believed that they had feelings for each other the whole way through. Which, I think, is because it started slowly in the beginning and then grew throughout the series. We also saw them fight and yell and disagree. And we saw them try to console each other, in a give and take sort of way. It wasn't one sided, and they were equals. Sometimes it was Aeryn consoling or helping John and sometimes it was the other way around. That simple fact right there helps me believe that there are real feelings between them. Can't say I ever saw that from Sam and Jack, because it always seemed like he had to rescue or console her, never the other way around.

Yes; he needs material he will be forced to sink his teeth into or risk ruining the whole thing with inappropriate silliness.

<snipped for space>

Hopefully, with a movie riding on him, he'll pull up his socks and take it seriously - and hopefully, if he doesn't, the showrunners will *make* him. And hopefully it isn't ruined with an overdose of ship - I never got the impression RDA was particularly enthused by the idea of S/J...

Quoted because fyere makes some really important points here.

I am very nervous about this third movie, but I'm not giving up all hope yet. As far as I can tell, the S/J "rumors" are based on one comment from Brad Wright. I had someone show me the clip once, and basically

Spoiler:

BW was responding to someone who asked if Sam/Jack would be confirmed (or something along those lines) and BW replied that "if you want to imagine them together, then go ahead." Then he said he was writing a "shall we say, 'romantic' scene for the third movie." As far as I know, that's the source of all the rumors right there.

I do agree with FrostFox that the fear of Joker!Jack is just as big of a concern as any S/J stuff they may try to include or hint at.

I'm always hesitant to speculate about how the actors may or may not feel about something, because I just feel like I don't have any evidence either way. With that said, it didn't seem to me like RDA was enthused with the S/J storyline (based on the way he acted it, which we've already discussed ). But it's possible that, with several years of distance from SG-1, RDA's opinion might have changed. I'm not being very positive here, but it doesn't seem like he's resisted the S/J storyline nearly as much in recent years as he did in S1-7. Hopefully, knowing he's a big part of this movie, RDA will make sure to give a farewell to Jack O'Neill that honors the character as the professional and heroic figure he was for so many years, and emphasizes his role as a representative of the armed forces. In my mind, Jack's sense of honor and duty are always what defined him, and I'd like to see that as the focus for Jack's character in the third movie.

[jckfan55]

My second reason for thinking that the shippy hints (S.H.s? or "attempts at shippy hints"? AASH?) are mostly Sam related is purely due to the acting. Now, I know that RDA is a fabulous actor. He's proved it time and time again. But in most "shippy" scenes, Amanda Tapping is out there acting her heart out and trying to sell this to the audience, and RDA is standing there like a board. That's just my opinion obviously, but I really have to wonder if the directors noticed this phenomenon.

To an extent I agree. I'm not sure how much of that is Jack being stoic and how much is RDA being uncomfortable with the whole thing so he doesn't put much into it. RDA is good at subtle, but these scenes are not just underplayed, they're almost un-played. My sense of AT is that whether she agrees or not, she'll put in her best effort. I find Threads particularly squirm-worthy.

On a side note, I always forget about Beneath the Surface. Mostly because I rarely watch it. I've never been able to give that episode a fair viewing because every time I cringe in anticipation of the "feelings" scene. Which is a shame, because the premise is interesting, but since it was one of the first episodes I saw where I noticed the ship angle, I just can't be objective about it.

Amazingly, as die hard an antishipper as I am, I don't really mind the "feelings" scene. Maybe b/c they're not quite themselves. But I do dislike the whole Point of View married thing, so I don't know...

Oh, and thanks MODs, for keeping the thread.

[jckfan55]

Yes, I agree. To be honest, I really didn't mind some of the playful, casual UST in the very early seasons, because it came across to me as just that, casual, never going to go anywhere. It was when it transformed from a casual attraction to "star-crossed lovers" that I started having issues with it.

Yes, they're human and they'd probably notice each other's attractiveness but wouldn't take it anywhere. In part, as others have said, because they really don't have much in common. What would they talk about? And because as others have said, they're both too professional to go there when in the same chain of command.

I think the more interesting relationship is the intense and deep bond among the whole team. think of what they've dealt with together. They would die for each other. As Sam said in one episode "We were a TEAM, Teal'c. No one can know what we meant to each other." They love each other, but not in a romantic way.

[jckfan55]

Seriously? What about a man seeing a teammate (and friend) going through an extremely difficult time and trying to offer her some comfort, and a woman appreciating the concern from her friend and thanking him for it?

How is Sam thanking Jack for being there for her in this difficult time automatically translate into her thinking about her love life? Or Jack putting his arm around Sam's shoulders translate into breaking regulations?

I can understand shippers reading possible romantic feelings into scenes like this, but I can't for the life of me understand why anti-shippers would do the same.

Yeah, I don't think it's necessarily romantic, but many of us feel like so much of their relationship is "tainted" by ship it's easy to see why someone would interpret it that way. Personally, i saw this one as more comfort to a friend. Maybe because I don't want to see it. And rarely watch the episode if I can help it.

[Khentkawes]

I think the more interesting relationship is the intense and deep bond among the whole team. think of what they've dealt with together. They would die for each other. As Sam said in one episode "We were a TEAM, Teal'c. No one can know what we meant to each other." They love each other, but not in a romantic way.

Bingo! That's it exactly! That's what attracted me to Stargate, and that's the dynamic that I like to see the writers explore. There is so much interesting material to explore when they focus on the team, and the ship just felt like an unnecessary tangent to me. It wasn't part of the core focus of Stargate as I saw it.

I totally agree that all of the team members love each other in a non-romantic way. But I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding the idea of "non-romantic love." TV shows present such a cliched version of "love" that viewers come to expect it. I think that's why TV shows often try to create love interests where they are unnecessary or even distracting.