Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

Oh yeah, I know it's just speculation. My snark got the better of me. Sorry for not being more clear in my post.

I just wanted to get some discussion going in here and thought I'd throw a topic out there.

Nowt wrong with that! And to be fair, nowt wrong with fannish speculation, but that's all it is, fans doing what fans do. It's not in the show.

Khentkawes posted something when we were deciding on the name for this thread.

And I quote -

Well, I only mentioned it because I think of this particular pairing as being more about Sam than Jack, because most of the "shippy" episodes focus on Sam more than Jack, IMO. Hey, that could be our first topic of discussion in the re-named thread!

That's my perception too, what's everyone elses?

FF

[Callista]

I don't know.

The one that really sticks out in my mind (no matter how hard I scrub it with bleach) is Divide and Conquer and that one seemed to be fairly balanced between the two.

Threads was probably more Sam. Grace was definitely Sam. Beneath the Surface was pretty even.

The only other ones I can think of were alternate universe or alternate timelines (2010, Point of View) and those were more alternate Sam oriented.

I know other episodes are considered shippy, but I guess I don't see it, so I don't know if those would be Sam eps or Jack eps.

[Killdeer]

The Lost City - that was more Sam. Heroes too I think.

[Khentkawes]

Ooh, new… old thread revived.

There’s one thing that I keep seeing around that is just completely mindboggling to me and that’s all the ”they’re so married” comments; the latest one being on Mallozzi’s blog. That, supposedly, they got married sometime in between season 8 and 9. Which… everytime I read that, I’m just completely bewildered. Married? Really? What? When? How? Huh?

From what we’ve seen on screen it just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. (But then, the entire ship doesn’t make any sense to me at all, either.)

Thoughts on this?

Unfortunately, I think Mallozzi encourages some of this. While I appreciate that JM bothers to interact with the fans, and that he does answer their questions (sometimes ), I don't appreciate his revisionist approach to SG cannon. He seems to think that by saying "oh this was a deleted scene!" or "oh, I wanted to include this but it never made it into the episode," that makes something cannon. Hence the "missing scene" from Atlantis' Trio that somehow proves S/J is cannon. Which just doesn't work, because how does JM know that BW and RCC, and everyone else, would agree with his perspective? It's just JM's interpretation, which is no more valid than anyone else's. Especially if it's based on something that never even made it into an episode.

I don't know.

The one that really sticks out in my mind (no matter how hard I scrub it with bleach) is Divide and Conquer and that one seemed to be fairly balanced between the two.

I can't try hard enough to forget this episode... and not just because of the ship parts, but also because it's really poorly constructed on a narrative level.

Threads was probably more Sam. Grace was definitely Sam. Beneath the Surface was pretty even.

The only other ones I can think of were alternate universe or alternate timelines (2010, Point of View) and those were more alternate Sam oriented.

I know other episodes are considered shippy, but I guess I don't see it, so I don't know if those would be Sam eps or Jack eps.

I was thinking of Threads, Lost City, and the one scene from Heroes (but also one scene from Affinity, and maybe one scene from Evolution). I think I have two reasons for feeling like the shippy hints are primarily Sam focused.

First, every time someone tries to bring it up and talk about it, it's always Sam. Now, I understand that Jack isn't really into talking about his feelings. He's generally pretty private and stoic. So I understand that. But Sam was never really portrayed as the emotional type either. And yet she keeps trying to talk to Jack about her love life. In Lost City and Threads she goes to talk to Jack (and we never find out what she wanted to say, so it makes for some pretty awkward and somewhat boring scenes, IMO). In Affinity, she tries to talk to Jack about Pete's proposal, and then tries to ask Jack how he feels about having a family (at least, I think that's what she's trying to ask him). Jack mentions "feelings" twice (in D&C and Beneath the Surface), but even then, Sam prompts him. It just seems like she spends far too much time talking about this issue.

My second reason for thinking that the shippy hints (S.H.s? or "attempts at shippy hints"? AASH?) are mostly Sam related is purely due to the acting. Now, I know that RDA is a fabulous actor. He's proved it time and time again. But in most "shippy" scenes, Amanda Tapping is out there acting her heart out and trying to sell this to the audience, and RDA is standing there like a board. That's just my opinion obviously, but I really have to wonder if the directors noticed this phenomenon.

So in the end, based on the number of lines they both have and on they way AT and RDA act in those scenes, I'm just left with the feeling that it's more Sam-centered. And maybe that was intentional, because the writer's thought Jack would be more reserved, or maybe they just thought that Sam would be the emotional center to the relationship because she's a girl? I'm not sure. That's just the impression that I'm left with.

On a side note, I always forget about Beneath the Surface. Mostly because I rarely watch it. I've never been able to give that episode a fair viewing because every time I cringe in anticipation of the "feelings" scene. Which is a shame, because the premise is interesting, but since it was one of the first episodes I saw where I noticed the ship angle, I just can't be objective about it.

[MerryK]

Though the focus of the shippy episodes is more often on Sam, I always got the feeling that the writers saw the ship from Jack's point of view—that Sam was this prize that Jack yearned for, and Sam should just stop playing around and get with him already. Did we ever get any hints as to why Sam was supposed to love Jack this much? Or was she just supposed to, because he loved her (for obvious reasons)?

[Callista]

Did we ever get any hints as to why Sam was supposed to love Jack this much? Or was she just supposed to, because he loved her (for obvious reasons)?

That's my number 2 gripe with the ship.

Number 1 is simply that I think it did real damage to the team aspect of the show...which is what I really liked about the show in the first place.

Number 2 is that I really don't see where Jack and Sam have anything in common other than their shared work experience...something that Teal'c and Daniel and actually a lot of other people at the SGC have as well. They're both attractive, but beyond that why would Sam want Jack to the point of risking her hard-earned career? He's never seemed particularly interested in her personality, IMO. He doesn't seem to have a clue when it comes to her personal or professional interests. And frankly, she doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in his hobbies either with the possible exception of astronomy/star-gazing. What would they do together outside of bed? I guess they're both supposed to be pilots, but neither of them seems all that jazzed by that either. I can't imagine them liking the same books or movies or even restaurants...unless there is some restaurant that serves nothing but blue jell-o and pie

I don't know, I just don't see it. But then, I can't think of any television show lead character romances that I've been in favor of. I think TV shows just naturally say lead man + lead woman = great TV show!! And I almost always think just the opposite.

[Killdeer]

Number 2 is that I really don't see where Jack and Sam have anything in common other than their shared work experience...something that Teal'c and Daniel and actually a lot of other people at the SGC have as well. They're both attractive, but beyond that why would Sam want Jack to the point of risking her hard-earned career? He's never seemed particularly interested in her personality, IMO. He doesn't seem to have a clue when it comes to her personal or professional interests. And frankly, she doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in his hobbies either with the possible exception of astronomy/star-gazing. What would they do together outside of bed? I guess they're both supposed to be pilots, but neither of them seems all that jazzed by that either. I can't imagine them liking the same books or movies or even restaurants.

I don't know, I just don't see it. But then, I can't think of any television show lead character romances that I've been in favor of. I think TV shows just naturally say lead man + lead woman = great TV show!! And I almost always think just the opposite.

Actually, I usually don't have a problem with TV ships - Stargate's always been a big exception. But I think exactly the same thing. My biggest problem with the ship has always been the chain of command issue, and yeah, my second would be the way the writers used it to screw up the team dynamics. But third would definitely be this. The writers never convinced me that they were really even friends, outside of work. I bought that Sam and Daniel were friends, that Sam and Janet were friends, etc, etc. But Jack and Sam seemed to have no connection whatsoever outside of this weird mutual attraction and their work.

The TV couples I have liked the best over the years have been the couples where, not only were they "in love", they were also each other's best friends. I could never believe that of Jack and Sam.

[Callista]

The chain of command thing used to bother me more than it does now, but I guess so many shows do this that I've become a bit desensitized to it. I more roll my eyes at it than get upset now.

The other show I would compare this ship to is Without A Trace where the head FBI guy (coincidentally named Jack) has had an extremely awkward affair with his female underling (coincidentally named Sam) for years and years. The first thing to enter my mind when I think of them is: "Should they be doing that since he's her boss?" And then I go onto: "What the heck do they see in each other?" They never talk about anything other than their awkward relationship and the case of the week, they never laugh together and they just always seem so dang uncomfortable around each other.
Add to that the fact that there is a Danny on the team as well as a no-nonsense character named...uh...Vivian. Dang, I thought I had something there!

Anyway, I think SG-1 just fell into that TV show trap where you can't have men and women working together without eventually having them hook up even though there's nothing to base it on. Which is a shame, because I thought that was one of their great strengths as a show, that Sam could be an equal member of the team and that they could just have a really wonderful relationship between four friends who were faced with unbelievable circumstances each week.

[Killdeer]

The chain of command thing used to bother me more than it does now, but I guess so many shows do this that I've become a bit desensitized to it. I more roll my eyes at it than get upset now.

It's still a major squick for me. Something about the whole power dynamics or something - it just really bugs me. Kind of like a teacher/student relationship I guess. Or something. Sometimes it can be downplayed. If the writers play it more as a partnership/friendship, then....maybe. But mostly not.

The other show I would compare this ship to is Without A Trace where the head FBI guy (coincidentally named Jack) has had an extremely awkward affair with his female underling (coincidentally named Sam) for years and years. The first thing to enter my mind when I think of them is: "Should they be doing that since he's her boss?" And then I go onto: "What the heck do they see in each other?" They never talk about anything other than their awkward relationship and the case of the week, they never laugh together and they just always seem so dang uncomfortable around each other.
Add to that the fact that there is a Danny on the team as well as a no-nonsense character named...uh...Vivian. Dang, I thought I had something there!

Funny you should bring that show up. I liked that show, but the Jack/Sam thing there was actually what made me quit watching it. Major ick. And yeah, I always thought it was funny that show had a Jack, Sam, and Danny. They also had a Martin, Vivian, and Elena, but oh well.

[MerryK]

Number 2 is that I really don't see where Jack and Sam have anything in common other than their shared work experience...something that Teal'c and Daniel and actually a lot of other people at the SGC have as well. They're both attractive, but beyond that why would Sam want Jack to the point of risking her hard-earned career? He's never seemed particularly interested in her personality, IMO. He doesn't seem to have a clue when it comes to her personal or professional interests. And frankly, she doesn't seem to be the least bit interested in his hobbies either with the possible exception of astronomy/star-gazing. What would they do together outside of bed? I guess they're both supposed to be pilots, but neither of them seems all that jazzed by that either. I can't imagine them liking the same books or movies or even restaurants...unless there is some restaurant that serves nothing but blue jell-o and pie

I think Jack liked Sam as a person, but if they weren't at work or doing something he liked, I don't think she could keep his interest. Even more so vice versa. I'd buy Sam having a true friendship with anyone else on the team, old or new, but I just can't see it with Jack. They work together—that's it.

[Killdeer]

I think Jack liked Sam as a person, but if they weren't at work or doing something he liked, I don't think she could keep his interest. Even more so vice versa. I'd buy Sam having a true friendship with anyone else on the team, old or new, but I just can't see it with Jack. They work together—that's it.

I agree.

[Khentkawes]

The other show I would compare this ship to is Without A Trace where the head FBI guy (coincidentally named Jack) has had an extremely awkward affair with his female underling (coincidentally named Sam) for years and years. The first thing to enter my mind when I think of them is: "Should they be doing that since he's her boss?" And then I go onto: "What the heck do they see in each other?" They never talk about anything other than their awkward relationship and the case of the week, they never laugh together and they just always seem so dang uncomfortable around each other.
Add to that the fact that there is a Danny on the team as well as a no-nonsense character named...uh...Vivian. Dang, I thought I had something there!

Well, you had a great comparison going... too bad Vivian ruined it for you.

Anyway, I think SG-1 just fell into that TV show trap where you can't have men and women working together without eventually having them hook up even though there's nothing to base it on. Which is a shame, because I thought that was one of their great strengths as a show, that Sam could be an equal member of the team and that they could just have a really wonderful relationship between four friends who were faced with unbelievable circumstances each week.

That is unfortunately true of many TV shows... and it sort of cheapens the female characters for me, because they are never truly just "one of the guys"... they (almost) always have to hook up with one of the guys.

The odd thing is that Stargate basically acknowledged this issue, and yet they still played right into the stereotypical male/female interaction. I actually love the scene in Affinity where Sam and Teal'c are in Daniel's office and they're all talking about relationships. But it strikes me as odd that the writers can pen a line like this for Sam: "It's bad enough being on your own without every TV show and commercial and magazine ad trying to tell you how abnormal it is." And then treat Sam's character exactly that way. She has to be paired up whenever possible. As a character, Sam reinforces the stereotypes even while she criticizes them.

It's still a major squick for me. Something about the whole power dynamics or something - it just really bugs me. Kind of like a teacher/student relationship I guess. Or something. Sometimes it can be downplayed. If the writers play it more as a partnership/friendship, then....maybe. But mostly not.

I find it very squicky as well. It just doesn't feel like an equal relationship, and it makes me uncomfortable. I can't see Jack figuring out how to leave his command persona at the office. And I can't see Sam transitioning from the 2IC who follows Jack's orders, to an equal partner. I also can't see her standing up to him if he starts to act like a jerk, which quite honestly would be a necessity. And how are they going to spend time together, anyway? He'll sit at his cabin fishing or watching hockey while she tries to explain her latest research in wormhole theory to him? I'm just not seeing it. (note: I didn't quote their comments, but I completely agree with what MerryK and Callista said about this in the posts above. Jack and Sam just don't have much in common, either in their interests or in their temperaments).

In general, I agree that it's easier to see a romantic relationship on screen (whether it's TV, movies, or whatever) if it starts as a friendship first (without the romance/lust/sexual tension) and then develops into something more later. Then you always have the friendship, mutual respect, and genuine enjoyment of each other's company as a basis. With Sam and Jack, we never really see that kind of a friendship... they just skip straight from a professional relationship to the sexual tension. Honestly, I respected both characters more when they stuck with the professionalism and teamwork. For me, it would have been a more interesting storyline to focus on Sam learning from Jack's leadership experience in sort of a mentoring type relationship.

[EvenstarSRV]

I think Jack liked Sam as a person, but if they weren't at work or doing something he liked, I don't think she could keep his interest. Even more so vice versa. I'd buy Sam having a true friendship with anyone else on the team, old or new, but I just can't see it with Jack. They work together—that's it.

I'm a rather firm non-shipper when it comes to Sam and Jack, but I pretty easily came to see all of SG-1, including Sam and Jack, as friends. They tease each other, they trust each other, they care about each other's well-being, they support each other, etc. I don't see Sam and Jack having a romantic relationship in the context of the show, but I can't see them as just being co-workers either.

As for shared interests, I've always seen their shared military experiences and shared interest in space to be perhaps their strongest connections, as well as their shared experiences of being hosts. I can see the two, as friends, perhaps sharing stories of various postings or awful training missions, or maybe even giving each other a heads up on upcoming meteor showers and the like.

[Khentkawes]

I'm a rather firm non-shipper when it comes to Sam and Jack, but I pretty easily came to see all of SG-1, including Sam and Jack, as friends. They tease each other, they trust each other, they care about each other's well-being, they support each other, etc. I don't see Sam and Jack having a romantic relationship in the context of the show, but I can't see them as just being co-workers either.

As for shared interests, I've always seen their shared military experiences and shared interest in space to be perhaps their strongest connections, as well as their shared experiences of being hosts. I can see the two, as friends, perhaps sharing stories of various postings or awful training missions, or maybe even giving each other a heads up on upcoming meteor showers and the like.

I suppose it depends on how you define the difference between friends and co-workers. I can see Jack and Sam as friends in the context of work, but not as friends outside of work, if that makes any sense. I agree with you that they care about each other (like they all do), they tease, they joke, they probably swap stories about military experiences. But I can't see them getting together outside of work, or even talking about extremely personal issues (I can't see them ever talking about their experiences as hosts, for example, mostly because I don't think Jack would be open to having such a conversation).

Basically, I've found in my own life that there's a difference between "work-friends" and "personal-friends." I work in an academic setting and I take classes in the same academic institution. I have colleagues that I see two to three times a week, and I call them "friends" but I would never do anything with them outside of the academic setting because we don't have anything in common outside of where we work/attend classes. So in that sense, we're more of friendly colleagues than personal friends. That's kind of how I see Jack and Sam. They certainly have a level of trust, respect, and camaraderie, but it's rooted firmly in their job, not in their personal lives. At least, that's my take on it.

There is some evidence that they must spend at least a little bit of time together off-base (Ascension and Upgrades are two examples), but I just can't see the two of them spending time alone together outside of work. If they're doing something outside of the SGC, I always imagine that it's a team-oriented activity, not just Sam and Jack going out for coffee or something. But my reasons for thinking that way are probably related to the whole chain-of-command squick. I want to see their relationship as professional, and to keep that professionalism, I don't think they should be spending a lot of time alone together off-base. I always assumed that Jack would be very conscious of making sure their relationship seemed "appropriate" and that he might even be a bit old-fashioned in that way (although I freely admit, that could just be my personal bias seeping in).

[Frostfox]

Mmm, lotsa lovely thinky stuff, I like thinky stuff.
May have to post this as multiple posts, I'm at work and may have to go actually do some work at some point. But there are lots of interesting points here and in other recent posts.

For a start, my feelings and reading of the show pretty much coincide with Khentkawes.

Unfortunately, I think Mallozzi encourages some of this. While I appreciate that JM bothers to interact with the fans, and that he does answer their questions (sometimes ), I don't appreciate his revisionist approach to SG cannon. He seems to think that by saying "oh this was a deleted scene!" or "oh, I wanted to include this but it never made it into the episode," that makes something cannon. Hence the "missing scene" from Atlantis' Trio that somehow proves S/J is cannon. Which just doesn't work, because how does JM know that BW and RCC, and everyone else, would agree with his perspective? It's just JM's interpretation, which is no more valid than anyone else's. Especially if it's based on something that never even made it into an episode.

I came into SG1 fandom from Trek fandom where TPTB are pretty much gods on high, very, very little interaction between them and the fans, the concept of fandom having any influence on them is laughable and there are no direct channels of communication. Contrast with SG1 fandom and its relationship with TPTB which is much closer. This has advantages, when we did the set tour, one of the producers showed us round, for an example, but it's also highly problematical when fans start to think they exert an influence on TPTB or to think that every opinion they have is a canon statement about the show.

I can't try hard enough to forget this episode... and not just because of the ship parts, but also because it's really poorly constructed on a narrative level.


I was thinking of Threads, Lost City, and the one scene from Heroes (but also one scene from Affinity, and maybe one scene from Evolution). I think I have two reasons for feeling like the shippy hints are primarily Sam focused.

I really, really got annoyed at the scene in Heroes; excellent episode, brilliantly acted but that scene rankled because of how it was shot, it wasn't about Sam feeling she needed comfort because her best friend, the one she was bringing up Cassie with, had just died. It was all about her and Sir. Which devalued her relationship with Janet, Cassie and Jack and devalued Sam herself, making her no more than a vessel for her feelings for her CO - a romance where you cut out all the other people you cared for is never healthy and seldom ends well. Love is selfless and lays down its life for others, love is much more than 'hearts and flowers' and doodling S loves J on your notebook in pink ink.
Ditto the scene in Sam's lab in Evolution part one, when Jack comes to tell her he's going to go get Daniel.
That scene should have been so interesting - Sam was going on a dangerous mission but she was going in the company of three of the best warriors the SGC had (Teal'c, Bra'tac and Jacob). It should have been Jack trying to give her a pep talk about leading such a... forceful group and the dynamics of having people like your father and ancient warriors under your command. And Sam's worry should have been about her best friend, her 'science twin' and her CO going out on a risky mission to rescue him. Instead it was all shot with Vaseline on the lens and was all about deeply meaningful glances between star-crossed lovers. Excuse me while I hurl.
That is not how an air force, ex-special ops officer in his fifties and a highly decorated, compassionate, dedicated officer in her thirties behave, that is how teenagers behave (actually, I don't even think teenagers behave like that outside of 91250 and High School Musical). It’s lazy, clichéd writing and Sam, Jack, SG1 and its fans deserved better.

First, every time someone tries to bring it up and talk about it, it's always Sam. Now, I understand that Jack isn't really into talking about his feelings. He's generally pretty private and stoic. So I understand that. But Sam was never really portrayed as the emotional type either. And yet she keeps trying to talk to Jack about her love life. In Lost City and Threads she goes to talk to Jack (and we never find out what she wanted to say, so it makes for some pretty awkward and somewhat boring scenes, IMO). In Affinity, she tries to talk to Jack about Pete's proposal, and then tries to ask Jack how he feels about having a family (at least, I think that's what she's trying to ask him). Jack mentions "feelings" twice (in D&C and Beneath the Surface), but even then, Sam prompts him. It just seems like she spends far too much time talking about this issue.

It makes her seem so clueless, so emotionally crippled, vapid, all the things Sam isn’t.

This man lost his son, lost his family; that is a life changing experience. You don’t ‘get over’ losing your son, particularly in the manner in which Charlie died. You do get on with life, you heal but it will always be a raw wound for Jack. It’s so off topic that Sam found out about it off Daniel, so, in Lost City, when the man is dying, having sacrificed his mind to save the planet (again), asking about Sara (who is forever linked to Charlie, hence Sara and Jack’s marriage failing) is just, well, words fail me. I don’t want to think of Sam, beautiful in soul and mind and body, being that clueless about the feelings of someone she’s so close to, I just don’t. It’s not romantic, bringing up his lost family like that, it’s vile and I wonder what kind of mind finds something like that to be romantic when they were writing the scene and when they came to shoot it? The whole scene is stilted and unreal, forced. And what gets me is that they tell us so much about Sam, Jack, the rest of the team and the tensions between them without realizing. For example, Sam and Jack are awkward in the scene, Jack is closed off and unwilling, even in the face of death to reach out and come to terms with what ever is between them. You can read that as him being self sacrificing; being unwilling to burden Sam with his love for her when he’s doomed to die, but that’s awfully melodramatic and stilted and based on theories of love, rather than observing normal human interactions. Sam looks stupefyingly gauche and awkward in Jack’s personal space; like a deer in the headlights, we get no impression that she is used to being with him in a social situation or in his home. And then, in breeze Daniel and Teal’c, with just ‘a shave and a haircut’ knock on the door. This says things about the team dynamic which I am sure were not the intent of the writer.

My second reason for thinking that the shippy hints (S.H.s? or "attempts at shippy hints"? AASH?) are mostly Sam related is purely due to the acting. Now, I know that RDA is a fabulous actor. He's proved it time and time again. But in most "shippy" scenes, Amanda Tapping is out there acting her heart out and trying to sell this to the audience, and RDA is standing there like a board. That's just my opinion obviously, but I really have to wonder if the directors noticed this phenomenon.

Preach it.
I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again. RDA is a great actor, a charismatic actor, a true lead. And he does romance as well as he does the heroics, he sold me on Jack’s relationship with Sara in a few brief scenes over a decade ago, the love, the pathos of what they had and lost, the reality of loss just in a few words and looks. He sold me on the fun Jack was having of a fling with the CIA woman. He never, not for one moment sold me on the idea of Jack and Sam as a viable, healthy relationship (or even a potential relationship).
The only thing I can think of is RDA’s respect for the USAF. He’s a passionate man, he’s flattered and proud of the USAF’s relationship with the show. I think he feels that showing Jack disrespecting the AF by being in an unsuitable relationship with his 2IC is wrong and disingenuous to them and to the characters. So I think he did his best to down play it. The times Jack and Sam are shown kissing, they are out of uniform or an AU/dream, whatever. Enough to titillate the fans; not enough to tick of the USAF.
And I think that is why it comes over so one sided, so flat from Jack’s point on the relationship, why poor Amanda looks as though she’s acting against a brick wall most of the time. There were times when I cringed on her behalf because she’s a great, empathic actor too and he gave her nothing back, she did the best with what she had but all in all, it was a train wreak (and must have been incredibly frustrating!)

So in the end, based on the number of lines they both have and on they way AT and RDA act in those scenes, I'm just left with the feeling that it's more Sam-centered. And maybe that was intentional, because the writer's thought Jack would be more reserved, or maybe they just thought that Sam would be the emotional center to the relationship because she's a girl? I'm not sure. That's just the impression that I'm left with.

She’s the girl! It’s twu wuv, don’t’cha’know? All us with the xy chromosome throw all common sense, logic and taste out of the window when confronted with the testosterone whiff of a Real Man ™

On a side note, I always forget about Beneath the Surface. Mostly because I rarely watch it. I've never been able to give that episode a fair viewing because every time I cringe in anticipation of the "feelings" scene. Which is a shame, because the premise is interesting, but since it was one of the first episodes I saw where I noticed the ship angle, I just can't be objective about it.

I like the strong SF premise of Beneath the Surface, but like most of SG1, it doesn’t really use it to the full advantage. I’m very fond of SG1, I’m very, very fond of the characters, but I never lose site of the limitations of a prime time, middle of the road US TV series. It’s not Pinter. It’s not Heinlein. It’s not even DS9/B5/Buffy/BSG. It’s 45 minutes of escapism, harmless, amusing and fun.

I perceive a change in attitude now the show is over. I do think the writers will do something to end the interminable mess. Particularly with the positive responses to the Adama/Roslin relationship in BSG. But I think it will be a damp squib; unsatisfying all round. The truly dedicated fans will not think it enough; the fans who hate the relationship will find it obtrusive and the bulk of the fans who don’t care either way? That will depend on how clever the writers are. I’m not holding out much hope and the one thing I know for sure, they are not going to please everyone.

FF