Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Frostfox]

I interpreted what dipsofjazz said about the RDA/Pete comparison as that Pete is nothing like Jack in terms of the character. I think DDL is kind of cute, but I think RDA is smokin'

But dipsofjazz said that they would need their eyes testing, which surely implies his looks, not Pete's character being different to Jack?
DdL is quite cute, not my type, but certainly not ugly.

FF

[atfan]

yes, I thought it said something about Sam that she wouldn't need to pick a guy that had typical alpha male good looks. I think his sense of fun was key for her.

Interesting I always thought it was because Pete was never supposed to serious so she deliberately picked someone who was not really her type.

[Jackie]

I'm sure there was plenty of hate mail from S/J shippers to the actor and TPTB about Pete, but it wasn't just the shippers alone that disliked the character or the story line.
There was a thread here in Gateworld (named the Anti Pete thread or something) which was full of posts from people that didn't like the 'stalker' aspect of the character, or the way Sam told him about the Stargate programme (when various other people, like Jacob, were never told) etc., and who weren't necessarily shippers.

I'm sure it must have been unpleasant for DdL to read these letters, but surely his brother would have known that the character/storyine would not be liked by many fans and warned him about the possible (bad) reaction?


(I also think that if anyone thought that Pete/DdL was any version of Jack/RDA, then they seriously need their eyes looked at. )

He's an actor, it's a character in a TV show. Pete wasn't real. Non of the characters are. It was a just a job, his brother shouldn't have to warn him that doing his his job will elicit hate mail.
People who are so far removed from reality that they send hate mail to an actor are, at worse seriously sick in the head, at best, a disgrace to fandom and make me ashamed to be a fan of the same show as them.

I don't think DdL is as attractive as RDA but he's a perfectly good looking man, you couldn't make a sensible case for calling him ugly.

FF

exactly!!! Did you know something very similar happened to the man who played "Steve" on Nick Jr.s Blues Clues?!!! The poor actor took a guest role on an ADULT TV SHOW where the role was that of the bad guy...he played a killer for the one episode.

The actor received hate mail and "how dare you" mail from the parents of the kids who watched blues clues. OMG! The parents, who stayed up and watched and adult tv show...late at night...saw "Steve" as a killer and had a cow. No wonder the actor left the show!!!

No actor should be receiving hate mail due to a character they play on TV...that's just insane.

Maybe PDL doesn't hang out on the internet as much as JM.

Possibly.

Yes. My post was in reply to Jackie saying that she thought Pete was intended to be a "younger version of Jack'.

I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to come here and start something about Pete. I apologise if I've come across as doing this.

I only wanted to reply to Jackie when she mentioned shippers having a 'cow' re. Pete. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't just the shippers that had a problem with the character.

I'll now leave you alone to continue your discussion.

The reason I stated he was "intended to be a younger version of Jack" is due to the fact that tptb tried desperately to make Pete look like a "good cop" that was sooo smart he could figure out that Sam was in a top secret base, doing top secret work with aliens.

Not only did he figure it out but he was also walking into the middle of the alien bad guys and then proposing to her behind an government car...like some old age hewo.

Pete's writing and character was similar to Jack. I'm not talking about the ship or about sweeping Sam off her feet. I'm not talking looks either.

There really isn't much difference between Mitchell, Pete, Sheppard...all three are written as if they were Jack. TPTB even admitted that Mitchell and Sheppard were written as if they were Jack. The knew enough not to admit in the public eye that Pete was written the same.

But all three don't come anywheres near Jack because RDA was able to add more depth and dimension to the character as he developed him. The rest of the actors didn't have that luxury. So, the 3 are a pale comparison to Jack and will never fill the big shoes left when RDA retired.

IMO if you take the character of Pete and drop the cop surveillance and put him in a fighter craft...you get Sheppard or Mitchell.

[Jace021903]

exactly!!! Did you know something very similar happened to the man who played "Steve" on Nick Jr.s Blues Clues?!!! The poor actor took a guest role on an ADULT TV SHOW where the role was that of the bad guy...he played a killer for the one episode.

The actor received hate mail and "how dare you" mail from the parents of the kids who watched blues clues. OMG! The parents, who stayed up and watched and adult tv show...late at night...saw "Steve" as a killer and had a cow. No wonder the actor left the show!!!

No actor should be receiving hate mail due to a character they play on TV...that's just insane.

That stuff just annoys me. People really need to get out more.

snipped

IMO if you take the character of Pete and drop the cop surveillance and put him in a fighter craft...you get Sheppard or Mitchell.

It's even more interesting that Ben Browder was considered for the part of Pete.

[scarimor]

People who are so far removed from reality that they send hate mail to an actor are, at worse seriously sick in the head, at best, a disgrace to fandom and make me ashamed to be a fan of the same show as them.

Oh yeah. But you know what, fandom has a lot to answer for in allowing and even promoting the affronted, sense-of-entitlement attitude of which this is just an extreme. And by "fandom", I mean the people who are kind of in charge of bits of it (because no one's in charge of all of it, of course), e.g, on a forum - i.e. the pervading approach to engaging with aspects of the show/fandom that aren't necesarily your cup of tea.

I sit with my friend and argue heatedly about Battlestar Galactica, because he can't stand President Roslin and I think she's great. We completely disagree on almost everything about the character, to the extent that he wishes she'd be killed off and I'd probably stop watching the show if she was. It's a total hate v. love a character thing, but that's also all it is: hate/love a character, with all the limits that implies; we couldn't be more extreme in our views, but those extremes are just about a TV character, and the minute we stop arguing about Roslin it's like she doesn't exist. Because she doesn't, duh. lol.

But come to GW, for example, and it's ALL about the character/ship or whatever. There's a lack of perspective to put the 'passion' in context. As an example - I sat in pub talking to some friends (two of whom happened to be gay) about Owen in Torchwood (Jack/Ianto slasher heaven! ), and our views about his actions in a given scene (and therefore his ethics) were very different: the two gay men didn't identify with the character and therefore interpreted something he did that was ambigious one way, while the rest of us didn't bring that influence to our viewing and consequently had various different ideas. The conversation went along the lines - 'Owen did such-and-such!'... 'How did you see that?' ... 'It was obvious!'... 'No way, he did blah-blah' ...'He didn't! I never saw that!'... 'How much more neon did it have to be? etc. etc. There was nothing wrong with our disagreeing over a piece of fiction and we soon talked about something else without getting in a tiz. But when I described this conversation briefly on GW as an illustrative example of how what was obvious in the scene to one person wasn't obvious to others, citing it suddenly became a crime! I couldn't repeat the word "neon" because that's insulting to poor widdle fans who are delicate and entitled not to hear such scary things. Because it's fandom instead of the real world, and hyper-sensitive fans who think they should hear and see only their own precious desires get their sense of entitlement coddled. Inevitably, fandom produces more than its share of such people who go on to act out their entitlement issues with hate mail when they don't get what they believe is their god-given right.

There might be fewer freaks from the character/ship battalions engaging in this sort of behaviour if places like fan forums developed a bit of perspective. Sure, they exist to discuss and/or celebrate a TV show, but they exist to discuss and/or celebrate only a TV show.

[jdjunkie]

Most excellent post Scari.
I think it should be cut and pasted into every character and relationship thread in existence.
It's the sense of entitlement thing that sets my teeth on edge at every turn.

And I'm in Jack/Ianto slasher heaven along with your mates.

[Frostfox]

When I first started watching SG-1 I had to check the comparative British/Canadian v. USAF grades because I wondered if I'd been mistaken. (USAF grades are based on Army ones, while Commonwealth Air Forces have Navy based equivalents. US Colonel = Group Captain, US Major = Squadron Leader, etc.)


Anway, on the topic... Carter was put on an elite, classified team without the benefit of Jack's input (he didn't know her). Years later she was appointed leader of Atlantis by the IOC, a civilian decision. As if there'd be any doubt as to her merit from anyone that matters just because she hooked up with Jack after he retired. Who'd care what airman Joe Smutt might be snickering about them (and about everyone else) to orderly Jane Snogg in the broom closet cuz he doesn't know what he should really be doing with his tongue

Not Carter or her colleagues or the generals who promoted her, that's for sure.

You're quite correct in this. But there would still be gossip. The armed services, on either side of the pond, still have a long way to go when it comes to women serving on the front line, as Sam undoubtedly is. As there is still the prejudice that women 'getting distracted' or 'distracting' the troops when serving on a ship or in a combat unit. As though women and men are not capable of serving together without an attraction forming. As with all prejudice, it is unfair but it's still going strong and it could impact on Sam, even if she and Jack were not still in the same CoC; people would talk.

Oh yeah. But you know what, fandom has a lot to answer for in allowing and even promoting the affronted, sense-of-entitlement attitude of which this is just an extreme. And by "fandom", I mean the people who are kind of in charge of bits of it (because no one's in charge of all of it, of course), e.g, on a forum - i.e. the pervading approach to engaging with aspects of the show/fandom that aren't necesarily your cup of tea.

I sit with my friend and argue heatedly about Battlestar Galactica, because he can't stand President Roslin and I think she's great. We completely disagree on almost everything about the character, to the extent that he wishes she'd be killed off and I'd probably stop watching the show if she was. It's a total hate v. love a character thing, but that's also all it is: hate/love a character, with all the limits that implies; we couldn't be more extreme in our views, but those extremes are just about a TV character, and the minute we stop arguing about Roslin it's like she doesn't exist. Because she doesn't, duh. lol.

But come to GW, for example, and it's ALL about the character/ship or whatever. There's a lack of perspective to put the 'passion' in context. As an example - I sat in pub talking to some friends (two of whom happened to be gay) about Owen in Torchwood (Jack/Ianto slasher heaven! ), and our views about his actions in a given scene (and therefore his ethics) were very different: the two gay men didn't identify with the character and therefore interpreted something he did that was ambigious one way, while the rest of us didn't bring that influence to our viewing and consequently had various different ideas. The conversation went along the lines - 'Owen did such-and-such!'... 'How did you see that?' ... 'It was obvious!'... 'No way, he did blah-blah' ...'He didn't! I never saw that!'... 'How much more neon did it have to be? etc. etc. There was nothing wrong with our disagreeing over a piece of fiction and we soon talked about something else without getting in a tiz. But when I described this conversation briefly on GW as an illustrative example of how what was obvious in the scene to one person wasn't obvious to others, citing it suddenly became a crime! I couldn't repeat the word "neon" because that's insulting to poor widdle fans who are delicate and entitled not to hear such scary things. Because it's fandom instead of the real world, and hyper-sensitive fans who think they should hear and see only their own precious desires get their sense of entitlement coddled. Inevitably, fandom produces more than its share of such people who go on to act out their entitlement issues with hate mail when they don't get what they believe is their god-given right.

There might be fewer freaks from the character/ship battalions engaging in this sort of behaviour if places like fan forums developed a bit of perspective. Sure, they exist to discuss and/or celebrate a TV show, but they exist to discuss and/or celebrate only a TV show.

This crystallises my feelings on SG1 fandom very well.
I come from many, many years in 'ordinary' lit fandom; my first con was in 1982 and I've been attending about four cons a year ever since. I suppose in UK fandom I'm a bit of a BNF? Certainly a 'known fan' as I have been involved with running conventions, I've been the MC for Worldcon Masquerades, I'm on xmas card terms with quite a few authors. And then there are the Hugos (FF pets her pair of Hugos). I've been around fans and fannishness for, gulp, 26 years. And I've dabbled in all manner of fandoms, comics, anime, costuming, filking, conrunning, dealing, artshow, but I'm relatively new in media fandom.
Media fandom and 'SF' (Worldcon/literary) fandom have an odd and slightly awkward relationship. Sadly, many 'SF' fans have been very dismissive and downright rude about media fandom. I've found media fans to be just as intelligent and interesting as SF fans. But it is issues such as you have highlighted which are the arguments used by SF fans for their opinions of media fen.
I cut my online teeth on Usenet, specifically RecArtsSFFandom (RASFF) which, famously, encourages debate and discussion and, while you learned pretty early on to stand your ground, you also learned that other's opinions also carried weight and that there was no black and white, just a lot of grey.
But you also learned the art of civilised debate and to listen to the other opinion and to understand that your way was not necessarily the only way to view something.

FF

[Jace021903]

Oh yeah. But you know what, fandom has a lot to answer for in allowing and even promoting the affronted, sense-of-entitlement attitude of which this is just an extreme. And by "fandom", I mean the people who are kind of in charge of bits of it (because no one's in charge of all of it, of course), e.g, on a forum - i.e. the pervading approach to engaging with aspects of the show/fandom that aren't necesarily your cup of tea.

I think the whole psychology of fandom entitlement is very interesting to observe. Producers and actors in all different genres have commented on how much more the fans are demanding specific story lines go a certain way and getting really nasty about it. Of course there are many different opinions from the fans so what can you do? There is a sense of empowerment that comes from hanging out on the internet with liked minded fans.

I think that in one sense the PTB want to give the fans what they want, but in a more important sense,, they have to tell the story that they want to tell. When you try and please everyone, the story loses its impact and is not about much.

[Frostfox]

I think the whole psychology of fandom entitlement is very interesting to observe. Producers and actors in all different genres have commented on how much more the fans are demanding specific story lines go a certain way and getting really nasty about it. Of course there are many different opinions from the fans so what can you do? There is a sense of empowerment that comes from hanging out on the internet with liked minded fans.

I think that in one sense the PTB want to give the fans what they want, but in a more important sense,, they have to tell the story that they want to tell. When you try and please everyone, the story loses its impact and is not about much.

I wonder how long it will be before we get one a TV series molded after those 'choose your own adventure' books?
I suspect that Web series, such as Amanda's Sanctuary would be more feasible than a traditional TV show.
But, in general, letting your fans decide is not good practice, as you said, too many factions; they are better focusing on a cohesive story of their own.

FF

[Jackie]

I apologies for going off subject but I think fandom behavior is an important issue.

Remember that movie, Misery...where the pysco fan kidnaps the writer and breaks his legs because he...I think...he killed off her favorite character in his book.

the fact that there might be a few people that could fit into the description is rather frightening.

Fandom in general is harmless...we bicker amongst ourselves over fictitious characters. We...as in fandom as a whole and not you the reader of this post personally...writes campaign letters to keep our fav show on or get or fav character back. That is all harmless and in good fun...though holding a protest could be a little out there...it's not meant to harm anyone.

When a few members of fandom cross that line and do make threatening letters over a show or character...we need to look at the culture itself. I'm not saying any fan who writes a threatening letter to an actor is going to be the next high school shooter on the news but if the issue of what is accepted and what not accepted as fandom behavior is never addressed then who's to say that one of our "fans" might think they have the god given right to go to a convention and shoot the place up just becuase their character fav. was killed on the show.

Granted, most people in fandom are harmless and know that harming an actor would be to the extreme...but with the violence in society and willingness of troubled teens to go get a gun and start shooting people so relevant...wouldn't it make sense to have discussions on what is not acceptable fandom behavior?

The internet as allowed fandom to explode into this huge aspect that can allow you access to websites like GW and others...which is far more interactive than what we had when I was a teenager. Thanks to GW we have forums and specialized threads for subjects...anti, pro or just...fan-ish.

We may not like the lazy Sam/Jack...half arse attempt the show did for a relationship...but others love it to the point where they could see a ship that doesn't even exist in a fan fic I write. (Shivers) OR...this has happened to me too...I give s light hint of a secret relationship between 2 characters and I get a review telling me that Sam/Jack are so disgusting together that even a slight mention of them makes the reader want to barf and then informs me that they will no longer read my fic. (To which I say..."then don't read it.")

the most amount of problems I had with "fandom" in fanfiction is usually around Sam/Jack. Either the reader is pissed becuase they are not together or they pissed because they are...lol.

Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

[prion]

I apologies for going off subject but I think fandom behavior is an important issue.

Remember that movie, Misery...where the pysco fan kidnaps the writer and breaks his legs because he...I think...he killed off her favorite character in his book.

the fact that there might be a few people that could fit into the description is rather frightening.

Fandom in general is harmless...we bicker amongst ourselves over fictitious characters. We...as in fandom as a whole and not you the reader of this post personally...writes campaign letters to keep our fav show on or get or fav character back. That is all harmless and in good fun...though holding a protest could be a little out there...it's not meant to harm anyone.

When a few members of fandom cross that line and do make threatening letters over a show or character...we need to look at the culture itself. I'm not saying any fan who writes a threatening letter to an actor is going to be the next high school shooter on the news but if the issue of what is accepted and what not accepted as fandom behavior is never addressed then who's to say that one of our "fans" might think they have the god given right to go to a convention and shoot the place up just becuase their character fav. was killed on the show.

Granted, most people in fandom are harmless and know that harming an actor would be to the extreme...but with the violence in society and willingness of troubled teens to go get a gun and start shooting people so relevant...wouldn't it make sense to have discussions on what is not acceptable fandom behavior?

The internet as allowed fandom to explode into this huge aspect that can allow you access to websites like GW and others...which is far more interactive than what we had when I was a teenager. Thanks to GW we have forums and specialized threads for subjects...anti, pro or just...fan-ish.

We may not like the lazy Sam/Jack...half arse attempt the show did for a relationship...but others love it to the point where they could see a ship that doesn't even exist in a fan fic I write. (Shivers) OR...this has happened to me too...I give s light hint of a secret relationship between 2 characters and I get a review telling me that Sam/Jack are so disgusting together that even a slight mention of them makes the reader want to barf and then informs me that they will no longer read my fic. (To which I say..."then don't read it.")

the most amount of problems I had with "fandom" in fanfiction is usually around Sam/Jack. Either the reader is pissed becuase they are not together or they pissed because they are...lol.

Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

Yup, that about sums up fandom. THere are a few fanatics out there who seem totally normal but if you get on the wrong side, the mail they send can be downright horrifying. One fan threatened me in a roundabout way on this board - the post was removed but this person is still posting, so, go figure). I find the obsessive fans - they have no life outside of their particular interest in the fandom (such as one or two S/J shippers) to be the ones that give all shippers a bad name.

As for S/J ship, I don't care what they do with it. Hoenstly, I'd prefer they just throw the two into bed for some torrid sex and get it done and over with and the characters go "meh? that's it?" and go back to their lives. By the time the writers do decide to 'pair up' the two, Jack's gonna need Viagra

[Frostfox]

I apologies for going off subject but I think fandom behavior is an important issue.

Remember that movie, Misery...where the pysco fan kidnaps the writer and breaks his legs because he...I think...he killed off her favorite character in his book.

the fact that there might be a few people that could fit into the description is rather frightening.

Fandom in general is harmless...we bicker amongst ourselves over fictitious characters. We...as in fandom as a whole and not you the reader of this post personally...writes campaign letters to keep our fav show on or get or fav character back. That is all harmless and in good fun...though holding a protest could be a little out there...it's not meant to harm anyone.

When a few members of fandom cross that line and do make threatening letters over a show or character...we need to look at the culture itself. I'm not saying any fan who writes a threatening letter to an actor is going to be the next high school shooter on the news but if the issue of what is accepted and what not accepted as fandom behavior is never addressed then who's to say that one of our "fans" might think they have the god given right to go to a convention and shoot the place up just becuase their character fav. was killed on the show.

Granted, most people in fandom are harmless and know that harming an actor would be to the extreme...but with the violence in society and willingness of troubled teens to go get a gun and start shooting people so relevant...wouldn't it make sense to have discussions on what is not acceptable fandom behavior?

The internet as allowed fandom to explode into this huge aspect that can allow you access to websites like GW and others...which is far more interactive than what we had when I was a teenager. Thanks to GW we have forums and specialized threads for subjects...anti, pro or just...fan-ish.

We may not like the lazy Sam/Jack...half arse attempt the show did for a relationship...but others love it to the point where they could see a ship that doesn't even exist in a fan fic I write. (Shivers) OR...this has happened to me too...I give s light hint of a secret relationship between 2 characters and I get a review telling me that Sam/Jack are so disgusting together that even a slight mention of them makes the reader want to barf and then informs me that they will no longer read my fic. (To which I say..."then don't read it.")

snipped small paragraph about your personal problems with part of fandom, sorry

Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.

Rule one of good discussion, sometimes the OT is the most interesting.
But I'm not happy pointing the finger at the S/J fans as being any better or any worse than any other fan group. Even if this is the Anti S/J Thread, we certainly aren't Anti S/J Fans.

And, even if you have had specific, personal, experience which might make it more pertinent to yourself, it smacks a bit of talking about people behind their backs, and I don't like that (and the Mods will edit or delete your post if they think so too).

All that being said, I think you have good points, particularly the explosion of internet fandom which has changed the nature of fannish interaction.

As I said, I joined fandom in '82 and large swathes of it had been the same since the 1950's. Fannish contact was through conventions and fanzines, as it had always been.

Media Fanfic was limited to fanzines, they were large, expensive, labour intensive and bought once or twice a year at cons or by mail order. You joined fan clubs to find out about your favourite show or character and received a newsletter, perhaps once a quarter.
Technology has changed all that. We live in the future.

Then the internet happened.
At first there were hosted sites with fanfic on them, but now there are un-hosted, automated archives such as FF.net.
Usenet and it's ilk have given way to BBS such as Gateworld, The Trek BBS and all the others.

Fanfic is online. Un-edited, sometimes un-beta'd, anyone can post anything
(Personal opinion time - Sturgeon's Law still applies - just because there is more fanfic out there, that doesn't mean it's worth reading)

Access is easy, virtually free for lots of us, considered to be a right, rather than a privilege. There is an anonymity on the internet and netiquette is learned, some people never bother to learn it.

Fandom hasn't really caught up with the internet itself yet, net fandom is still very young, still growing and changing, in 5 years, in 10 years time, it will be as different again.

Though some of us still produce good old paper fanzines. Even if we use more Mac's than are strictly necessary (about 6) to produce the fanzine, then put them up on the web as PDFs.

FF

[Jackie]

Alas, intelligent and engaging conversations. (and no silly socks.)




Now, if only the franchise would just put the sam/jack...yes or no to rest.

[Frostfox]

Alas, intelligent and engaging conversations. (and no silly socks.)




Now, if only the franchise would just put the sam/jack...yes or no to rest.

It's too late, they've left it too long.
Too much bait and switch. Are they? Aren't they? Yes they are, but it's another time/space continuum. Yes they are, but one of them is from the future. Yes they are, for real, not a hoax, not an imaginary story but, oops, giant space aardvarks are going to interrupt at an inopportune moment.

It's just got silly and there aren't any fans left to care; Jack has been out of the franchise for three years now, the time is past, the fans have other relationships to care about.

FF

[Frostfox]

I'm always happiest when this thread is languishing on page 24 - for us, no news is good news.

Spoilers for Continuum

Spoiler:

And you will all be delighted to know that Continuum is a Sam and Jack relationship free zone! Three cheers!
More specific spoilers for those who really want them or have seen it already.

Spoiler:

Our Jack gets killed at the start (don't worry, it's a time travel episode, everybody dies) and both Sam and Daniel react to this. But so they darn well should, just because I don't want any romantic tosh between Sam and Jack, doesn't mean she should be blasé about him being hurt or killed; he's one of her three closest friends, of course she will be upset. But she calls him 'Sir', even when reacting to him being stabbed, so no inappropriate use of first names, no soppy camera close-ups of eyes brimming with un-shed tears and no romantic plonky plinky piano-and-string-section-covered-in-syrup music to distract us from the drama. Which is all good.
And that's it really, no other S/J contact of note. Sadly, RDA isn't in the film as much as I'd have liked and isn't used as well as he could be (Jack the joker is a bit too much in evidence) but you can't have everything and SG1 is clearly moving on from being the RDA/Jack show, which it has to if it is to survive.

So you can buy the DVD confident that SG1 remains a team show and not an overblown soap opera. It's a fun film. One or two plot holes of vast proportion, but a fun way to spend an hour and a half.

This has been a Public Service Announcement on behalf of Team SG1 Fans everywhere.

FF