Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Callista]

[damn why can't I get mult-quote to work any more?]

Do you have your cookies turned off? (And wouldn't that make a great pick-up line )

And, to be on topic:

Sam, yeah!
Jack, yeah!
Sam/Jack, boo!

Actually, I do have a little to say about this. I do think Jack and Sam have an attraction to eachother, but I always sort of got the impression that they both were making it out to be more than it really was. It seems like they both have so much emotional baggage (Jack's loss of his son, his divorce, all the "distastefull things" he's had to do....Sam's loss of her mother and shaky relationship with her father and brother, the huge chip on her shoulder that we saw when she introduced herself to everyone with the dreaded "sex organs on the inside" line, her failed engagement to that Jonas guy) that they don't want to deal with and they know that if they have a real caring, loving, long-term relationship with someone they're going to have to talk to that person about it and work through things.

Jack himself said that he can forget sometimes but that he can't forgive himself for what happened.....that's not a healthy place to be if you're going to have a good relationship.

And what seemed to scare Sam off from Pete? Not the fact that he was stalking her. It was all the domestic stuff. She was embarrassed about picking flowers. She was horrified that he bought a house (which, I have to agree is not a good idea. Guys! Don't buy a house all on your own, even if she did say it was her dream house.) The idea of having a dog made her stop dead in her tracks. This does not seem like a woman who wants to make a long-term commitment and lead any sort of a "normal" life!

I think they look at eachother as a good excuse for not going out and finding someone and having a life on Earth. They can tell themselves that if it weren't for the regulations they would be together and everything would be great and they wouldn't have to deal with all the junk running around in their psyches and so there's nothing wrong with them that they have to work on and they can just bury their heads in the sand. When Sam imagines Jack saying "I'm a safe bet" in Grace, I took it as meaning not that she can have him whenever she wants but that she's hiding from the pain and loneliness in her life by blowing her attraction to her commanding officer all out of proportion.

[Frostfox]

Ok, I found Kerry's line (I knew I was paraphrasing it).:

Kerry: Is the Air Force the only thing keeping you two apart? Rules and regulations? Because if it is, you're making a very big mistake.

And I've got to say more now, because when I described that line as "huge", I was understating the case. It's the line. The line to end all lines, as far as this damn S/J ship thing goes. It's the giant heart-pink elephant in the room line - the very issues the writers had been dancing around with the unspoken-ness of stuff that couldn't be spoken about since the Zatarc detector.

And who says it? Jack's girlfriend, for crying out loud. And two whom? To Jack, for fcol. Sam isn't even there.

And Jack's demeanour - that uncomfortable "lack of chemistry" look people ascribe to him when he's in shippy-loaded scenes with Sam? It's right there, the same one. It's not being with Sam that's his problem (far from it); it's having to face the issues associated with it that makes him uncomfortable.

Kerry then goes on to tell him that he should retire, btw, when he asks her what he should do about his difficulty.

I guess it kind of boggles me a little that some choose to interpret Sam's visit in one way, and never mention this big honking reveal-all conversation later that casts such a search-light on it. But there you go. Everyone's prerogative

I'm not saying that they didn't have Jack looking like an ass too when it came to the blinking 'relationship' but that Sam was the one who got the bulk of the wishy-washy soft focus, violins-covered-in-syrup music aspect of it which I despise so.

This scene between Jack and Kerry, while reading like a third rate trashy romance novel, didn't force RDA to look like a love struck 16 year old. Indeed, as usual when playing the relationship stuff, he resorted, as you noted to the terminal indigestion mode of acting.

And I agree with Kerry, the regulations were just an excuse, if they truly were meant to be together, they would have found a way.
Ignoring the real world problems such as the conventions of 45min serial TV drama and the problems it would have caused the writers having to split the team, of course. But if TPTB had really, really wanted the two protagonists in a fully functioning relationship, with, gosh, words and perhaps even some physical contact at some stage, they could have found a way.

FF

[jckfan55]

As much as I love RDA as Jack, i do have to agree that with your "terminal indigestion mode of acting" characterization, FF. I think he can and has done a lot with a look in the past. But often with the ship stuff in his last season or so he did look in need of an economy size bottle of Tums.

[Frostfox]

As much as I love RDA as Jack, i do have to agree that with your "terminal indigestion mode of acting" characterization, FF. I think he can and has done a lot with a look in the past. But often with the ship stuff in his last season or so he did look in need of an economy size bottle of Tums.

But why?
Why would a director let one of his actors look like that? Weren't they aware of how it made him appear? How it made Sam look?
I loved Jack. I think RDA is phenomenally charismatic and a good actor. Why on earth wouldn't he act into the romance? It's just beyond me and I think it is a big reason why some fans can claim that Jack didn't have the same sort of investment in the relationship that Sam did.

Spoiler for those of a delicate disposition.
Don't say I didn't warn you.

Spoiler:

Does that look like love? Amanda looks suitably tearful, Sam's dad is dying, she's doing a good job of showing her sorrow. But RDA? Yeah, I'd expect some solemnity but he plays the whole scene, not just this shot, without giving Amanda ANYTHING to work off. He even has his hand just draped like a dead kipper on her shoulder, Amanda has to take hold of it to try to make it look natural and he doesn't squeeze her hand back or anything.
What on earth were they thinking?

Why, yes, I did watch this episode last night, how did you guess?

FF

[jckfan55]

When I give him the benefit of the doubt I think, well Jack is uncomfortable showing his feelings. But surely *sometimes* he must. Good point about the directing.

[Frostfox]

When I give him the benefit of the doubt I think, well Jack is uncomfortable showing his feelings. But surely *sometimes* he must. Good point about the directing.

But we have seen Jack in love, we saw happy times with him and Sara. He never looked uncomfortable with Sara, he looked comfortable and relaxed with Kerry too. And he looks comfortable enough with Sam, just not when he's supposed to look romantic with her, that's when it's all frozen and stilted and awkward.

FF

[Frostfox]

Do you have your cookies turned off? (And wouldn't that make a great pick-up line )

And, to be on topic:

Sam, yeah!
Jack, yeah!
Sam/Jack, boo!

Actually, I do have a little to say about this. I do think Jack and Sam have an attraction to eachother, but I always sort of got the impression that they both were making it out to be more than it really was. It seems like they both have so much emotional baggage (Jack's loss of his son, his divorce, all the "distastefull things" he's had to do....Sam's loss of her mother and shaky relationship with her father and brother, the huge chip on her shoulder that we saw when she introduced herself to everyone with the dreaded "sex organs on the inside" line, her failed engagement to that Jonas guy) that they don't want to deal with and they know that if they have a real caring, loving, long-term relationship with someone they're going to have to talk to that person about it and work through things.

Jack himself said that he can forget sometimes but that he can't forgive himself for what happened.....that's not a healthy place to be if you're going to have a good relationship.

And what seemed to scare Sam off from Pete? Not the fact that he was stalking her. It was all the domestic stuff. She was embarrassed about picking flowers. She was horrified that he bought a house (which, I have to agree is not a good idea. Guys! Don't buy a house all on your own, even if she did say it was her dream house.) The idea of having a dog made her stop dead in her tracks. This does not seem like a woman who wants to make a long-term commitment and lead any sort of a "normal" life!

I think they look at eachother as a good excuse for not going out and finding someone and having a life on Earth. They can tell themselves that if it weren't for the regulations they would be together and everything would be great and they wouldn't have to deal with all the junk running around in their psyches and so there's nothing wrong with them that they have to work on and they can just bury their heads in the sand. When Sam imagines Jack saying "I'm a safe bet" in Grace, I took it as meaning not that she can have him whenever she wants but that she's hiding from the pain and loneliness in her life by blowing her attraction to her commanding officer all out of proportion.

Yay for the bolded part!

It's great how many different ways we can view this supposed 'relationship'. And how many ways they would be wrong for each other.

Here's a question for everyone, do you think that we can really call it a relationship? Doesn't that imply a level of intimacy that was lacking? Personally, I think Sam and Jack had a perfectly wonderful working relationship, just not a healthy or functional romantic relationship. Daydreams, pining and the occasional burst of unfulfilled lust do not a love affair make.

FF

[atfan]

See that's exactly what I mean. I have no idea what he's thinking. For the moment I've decided to just take it for what it is.

Spoiler:

if interested, check out my little happy fantasy about this on the shipper thread.

Hey Dreamer one what are you doing on this thread? Are you like me sick of the nitpicking stuff that is happening on the shipper thread?

[Frostfox]

Hey Dreamer one what are you doing on this thread? Are you like me sick of the nitpicking stuff that is happening on the shipper thread?

We've had a lot of visitors from that thread lately, never seen so many of you over here. It's a bit sad that people are feeling alienated in their S/J thread.

FF

[Callista]

Yay for the bolded part!

It's great how many different ways we can view this supposed 'relationship'. And how many ways they would be wrong for each other.

Here's a question for everyone, do you think that we can really call it a relationship? Doesn't that imply a level of intimacy that was lacking? Personally, I think Sam and Jack had a perfectly wonderful working relationship, just not a healthy or functional romantic relationship. Daydreams, pining and the occasional burst of unfulfilled lust do not a love affair make.

FF

I'm sitting here trying to think of episodes where Sam and Jack were inimate in a non-sexual way and I can't come up with much.

They have a little bit of a shared grief thing in Fire and Water and Sam is there for Jack in Solitudes. They seem to be leaning on eachother in Beneath the Surface, but they don't remember who they are so I'm not sure if that one counts. Then there's the hug in Heroes which obviously can be read in different ways. I can't really recall any scenes of them talking to eachother about their pasts where they aren't either extremely uncomfortable, injured, amnesiac, or hallucinatory.

Jack and Daniel have talked about their personal lives in COTG and in the movie.

Teal'c felt comfortable telling Daniel about how his father died...and Daniel held that as a personal thing that shouldn't be repeated lightly.

Teal'c and Daniel apparently kel-noreem together.

We've seen Sam and Daniel chatting about his dreams while they were working out.

Sam and Teal'c talked about their feelings after Daniel's death and when Jack was missing.

Anyway, it does seem like they just don't have much in common outside of work. There's the old "opposites attract" adage, but I think most people who've ever had a committed long-term relationship will agree that the other person can't be too opposite or they'll have absolutely nothing to talk about. I believe that there may be some physical attraction there (after all, they are both very good looking people), and I'm sure they respect eachother professionally, but I just can't imagine them setting up house together or doing "every-day stuff" together like going out to eat or to a movie or even walking the dog in the park or sitting around the house watching TV together.

[dreamer one]

Hey Dreamer one what are you doing on this thread? Are you like me sick of the nitpicking stuff that is happening on the shipper thread?

Surprised to see you here too!!

Well, you see when I'm really frustrated with the way the relationship is portrayed on the series, or currently not portrayed, I need somewhere to vent. And I do appreciate the willingness of the anti-ship folks on this thread to listen to me (us). Even though I really like the relationship that could be Sam and Jack, the anti-thread has some good points about how it has been badly portrayed. (But to be fair I still love the SJ family thread too.)

Sometimes, I just want to vent my frustration, largely at TPTB.

Anyway, I'm watching the SG1 episodes on Sci Fi tonight while I work on my own fanfic. If I can't see the relationship I want on the show, I figure I'll join the fanfic writers who portray it well.

My opinion in a few words : Jack and Sam could be great together but they need better writing!!!

(Love the comment from someone earlier about Jack looking like he has indigestion when he's with Sam.)

[Frostfox]

I'm sitting here trying to think of episodes where Sam and Jack were inimate in a non-sexual way and I can't come up with much.

They have a little bit of a shared grief thing in Fire and Water and Sam is there for Jack in Solitudes. They seem to be leaning on eachother in Beneath the Surface, but they don't remember who they are so I'm not sure if that one counts. Then there's the hug in Heroes which obviously can be read in different ways. I can't really recall any scenes of them talking to eachother about their pasts where they aren't either extremely uncomfortable, injured, amnesiac, or hallucinatory.

Jack and Daniel have talked about their personal lives in COTG and in the movie.

Teal'c felt comfortable telling Daniel about how his father died...and Daniel held that as a personal thing that shouldn't be repeated lightly.

Teal'c and Daniel apparently kel-noreem together.

We've seen Sam and Daniel chatting about his dreams while they were working out.

Sam and Teal'c talked about their feelings after Daniel's death and when Jack was missing.

Anyway, it does seem like they just don't have much in common outside of work. There's the old "opposites attract" adage, but I think most people who've ever had a committed long-term relationship will agree that the other person can't be too opposite or they'll have absolutely nothing to talk about. I believe that there may be some physical attraction there (after all, they are both very good looking people), and I'm sure they respect eachother professionally, but I just can't imagine them setting up house together or doing "every-day stuff" together like going out to eat or to a movie or even walking the dog in the park or sitting around the house watching TV together.

I still don't get the feeling that they really know each other outside of their jobs.
He was her CO for so long, Daniel was a civilian and Teal'c an alien but CO and 2IC is such an inflexible and immutable pairing, both of them are career Airforce, the boundaries that places, for 7 years, very hard to break, when something defines your relationship so strongly, it can be there forever.
Which is why TPTB were gently poking fun at the fans with the joke wedding and Sam, even at the altar, still calling him 'Sir'

FF

[Frostfox]

Surprised to see you here too!!

Well, you see when I'm really frustrated with the way the relationship is portrayed on the series, or currently not portrayed, I need somewhere to vent. And I do appreciate the willingness of the anti-ship folks on this thread to listen to me (us).Even though I really like the relationship that could be Sam and Jack, the anti-thread has some good points about how it has been badly portrayed. (But to be fair I still love the SJ family thread too.)

Sometimes, I just want to vent my frustration, largely at TPTB.

Anyway, I'm watching the SG1 episodes on Sci Fi tonight while I work on my own fanfic. If I can't see the relationship I want on the show, I figure I'll join the fanfic writers who portray it well.

My opinion in a few words : Jack and Sam could be great together but they need better writing!!!

(Love the comment from someone earlier about Jack looking like he has indigestion when he's with Sam.)

Re bolded above, only speaking for myself, of course, you are very welcome here. I don't think any of us have any beef with the S/J shippers. And there are lots of times when I really want to slap TPTB very hard (and 99.9% of those times have nothing to do with S/J).

I've always said that the fanfic writers, of all types, often do more justice to the characters and their relationships than the show writers. But then, the show writers have to contend with the constraints of 45 minute, mainstream, episodic TV. Fanfic writers can be much more flexible.
Do you LJ? There is a fab community called SG-1 Debrief which patiently collects fanfic from across LJ and posts it, all sorted into pairings and types, once a fortnight.
This is the current one. http://community.livejournal.com/sg1_debrief/25408.html

FF

[Callista]

I still don't get the feeling that they really know each other outside of their jobs.
He was her CO for so long, Daniel was a civilian and Teal'c an alien but CO and 2IC is such an inflexible and immutable pairing, both of them are career Airforce, the boundaries that places, for 7 years, very hard to break, when something defines your relationship so strongly, it can be there forever.
Which is why TPTB were gently poking fun at the fans with the joke wedding and Sam, even at the altar, still calling him 'Sir'

FF

I agree.


One thing I've always hated about the way the entertainment industry portrays couples is that they almost never have them being friends.....where they just enjoy the pleasure of eachother's company because they are comfortable together and know eachother's past, likes and dislikes, and quirks. It has to be all about deception or constant bickering or forbidden love or insurmountable barriers. There are some sit-coms with decent portrayals of marriage, but it seems like modern-day dramas have to have constant turmoil in relationships or they're not interesting to the audience. While there may be some truth to that, it's far from real life affection, friendship, intimacy and love.

I think Stargate went for the "dramatic" love angle rather than the "real" love angle. While that may keep it interesting for a while to some, I have no interest in it. And it would seem that after a decade, it is losing what interest it held amongst the audience to the point where it is just ridiculous that it could still be going on after all this time. Sam and Jack are not teen-agers! Their hormones should be quite under control by this point.

And, considering that Jack seemed to not be all that attached to his career at the beginning of the show and seemed reluctant to be a General, I find it extremely hard to believe that he wouldn't drop his career in a second if it meant that he could be with the woman he's been in love with for YEARS! Why hide things and put Sam's career in jeopardy? They've got to have plenty of money, and Kerry's right...I'm sure he could get a consulting gig.

I just don't understand why TPTB don't or didn't just come down one way or the other by the end of the series. For goodness sake, quit yanking everyone's chain!

[Frostfox]

I agree.


One thing I've always hated about the way the entertainment industry portrays couples is that they almost never have them being friends.....where they just enjoy the pleasure of eachother's company because they are comfortable together and know eachother's past, likes and dislikes, and quirks. It has to be all about deception or constant bickering or forbidden love or insurmountable barriers. There are some sit-coms with decent portrayals of marriage, but it seems like modern-day dramas have to have constant turmoil in relationships or they're not interesting to the audience. While there may be some truth to that, it's far from real life affection, friendship, intimacy and love.

I think Stargate went for the "dramatic" love angle rather than the "real" love angle. While that may keep it interesting for a while to some, I have no interest in it. And it would seem that after a decade, it is losing what interest it held amongst the audience to the point where it is just ridiculous that it could still be going on after all this time. Sam and Jack are not teen-agers! Their hormones should be quite under control by this point.

And, considering that Jack seemed to not be all that attached to his career at the beginning of the show and seemed reluctant to be a General, I find it extremely hard to believe that he wouldn't drop his career in a second if it meant that he could be with the woman he's been in love with for YEARS! Why hide things and put Sam's career in jeopardy? They've got to have plenty of money, and Kerry's right...I'm sure he could get a consulting gig.

I just don't understand why TPTB don't or didn't just come down one way or the other by the end of the series. For goodness sake, quit yanking everyone's chain!

Oh, the old leading man gets the girl shtick? Yawn. Can you think of anything duller? And why didn't they play around with the alternate realities we have seen? I would have been much more interested in Geek Love between Sam and Daniel in Möbius than just another rehash of S/J. Yes, we get the picture, no universe is complete without the love affair to put Romeo and Juliette in the shade. Play another tune, please, it's getting awfully dull.

I really wish SG1 sometimes had pushed the envelope just a little more, not just on this issue, more of The Changeling and Abyss, a bit less of the dull but safe stuff.

FF