Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Mr Prophet]

As the CO it was Jack's professional responsibility to remove one of them from the chain of command, especially after acknowledging that he felt that way about her. He had the clout, and he didn't.

You know what I'd like to see? Sam's turn in the chair second time around. What did she lie about? What was she going to confess?

SAM: I didn't leave him because I was on the wrong side of the wall!

I think not. So, what lie was she telling? All I can think it could be was that she wasn't saying:

SAM: I knew he wasn't leaving because he has a thing for me.

In fact, I see precious little evidence in D&C that Sam feels anything stronger than friendship and perhaps a little idle curiosity. As I've said before, I don't believe she so poor a professional that 'this doesn't have to leave the room' can mean anything but that it isn't serious enough to matter, and it's Jack who has doubts about.

So yeah, there it's all about Jack and his shippiness. But later, especially post-Pete...it feels, from what I've seen of it, forced and it feels like the writers are forcing through Sam because she's the woman, which is a) a stereotype and b) not what we'd seen of the ship beforehand. Which may be one of the reasons it bugged me more later on.

[jdjunkie]

And this kind of miffed-sounding response is also very common "far less valid" than whose?

Oh rats. Now I'm not only gender-biased and predictable, I'm miffed too Who knew that I could multi-task like that.
jd

[scarimor]

You know what I'd like to see? Sam's turn in the chair second time around. What did she lie about? What was she going to confess?

SAM: I didn't leave him because I was on the wrong side of the wall!

I think not. So, what lie was she telling? All I can think it could be was that she wasn't saying:

SAM: I knew he wasn't leaving because he has a thing for me.

Yes, exactly that. She knew he had a thing for her and she'd been keeping it quiet, trying to ignore it.

In fact, I see precious little evidence in D&C that Sam feels anything stronger than friendship and perhaps a little idle curiosity. As I've said before, I don't believe she so poor a professional that 'this doesn't have to leave the room' can mean anything but that it isn't serious enough to matter, and it's Jack who has doubts about.

Yes and she was trying to save him embarrassment in that moment. She knew he had a thing for her, and now suddenly she has to tell him she knows he does in order to save them. Very awkward, especially given that she's the subordinate, but she handled it really well. And that time, so did Jack.

So yeah, there it's all about Jack and his shippiness. But later, especially post-Pete...it feels, from what I've seen of it, forced and it feels like the writers are forcing through Sam because she's the woman, which is a) a stereotype and b) not what we'd seen of the ship beforehand. Which may be one of the reasons it bugged me more later on.

What bugged me more later on was when it became clear that Jack still had a thing for her (e.g. Kerry's observations) and was letting it continue to be a problem. That damaged his character, imo.

[scarimor]

Oh rats. Now I'm not only gender-biased and predictable, I'm miffed too Who knew that I could multi-task like that.
jd

Yeah but that makes you normal

[jdjunkie]

Oh, God, now I'm normal? Not something that's said about me every day, that's for sure
General anti-ship question here: Is there a (perceived) shippy moment that irks you (generic you, not just Scari) more than any other?
jd

[Frostfox]

Oh, God, now I'm normal? Not something that's said about me every day, that's for sure
General anti-ship question here: Is there a (perceived) shippy moment that irks you (generic you, not just Scari) more than any other?
jd

Sam, clever, beautiful, intelligent officer in the USAF, turning up at her CO's house when he's entertaining his girlfriend, dressed like a middle aged frump in a twin set. What the hell? Is that what the she thinks he wants? Jack couldn't have looked more awkward. It was humiliating for both of them.

I don't care as much how Jack, lead alpha male on the show, is perceived as I do how Sam, who was a great aspirational character for anyone, is shown.

I view the later Sam and Jack interactions as tainted and that is because the writers changed their relationship so it became very hard not to see it in that way.

FF

[Madeleine]

I didn't see her focused on Jack at all. No more than she was focused on Teal'c. It's interesting, that perception, because the screen-time for the Sam/Teal'c moments is longer than for the Sam/Jack moments. And the gender-bias is there again - you don't mention that Jack is all focused on Sam.

That's probably because Jack doesn't say how glad he is that Sam isn't dead, nor does Sam say how glad that Teal'c isn't dead. But I admit it's a long while since I saw it, so there may be stuff I've forgotten.

Oh, that's a strong anti-ship moment Sam is really annoyed that he asks that question, though she's obviously trying not to be rude on camera and say what she really thinks of him. The indignance simmering in her expression and her reply is tangible. As is the complete surprise that she's asked the question at all - it's a real wtf moment. And she makes it very clear that there is nothing between them. I felt for her, and then I cheered for her. Go anti-ship Sam!

Interesting, isn't it, that her scripted words are anti-ship, but you interpret it as shippy. I wonder, if Jack had been put on the spot with such an inappropriate question and got annoyed and told the interviewer that he and Sam were just colleagues, would you have interpreted the moment as "shippy" and "boyish-crush blushing"?

Note that Sam did not blush in that scene, either

If she'd dealt with it quickly - however she'd said her "No" - I could have taken her No at face value. Because she tripped over her words and looked down (okay no blushing - sorry! - but -) the embarrassed eyes-lowered I interpreted in the same way as I would blushing and more so, cos blushing can't be controlled but you do get to control looking someone in the eye.

I can't see why anyone would have difficulty in saying No to that question. Unless it was because they had difficulty in saying No to that question.

You say she was indignant at the question and I'm glad for you that that's what you saw. I'd have liked to be able to see indignance, outrage, amusement; all I coud find along that line was embarrasment.

[Madeleine]

I don't care as much how Jack, lead alpha male on the show, is perceived as I do how Sam, who was a great aspirational character for anyone, is shown.

Same here. I was never so attatched to Jack as I was to Sam.

I've been disappointed in his behaviour at times (the leer at the end of WoO for instance) but never in his mindset: Jack always seemed to be in control of whether or not he made inappropriate comments about Sam. That didn't seem to be the case during s7 and s8 for Sam: I got the impression that her feelings over Jack were, if not controlling her, then having a heck of a lot of influence over her.

[scarimor]

Oh, God, now I'm normal? Not something that's said about me every day, that's for sure

I'm deeply sorry for the offence

General anti-ship question here: Is there a (perceived) shippy moment that irks you (generic you, not just Scari) more than any other?
jd

Yeah, the look on Jack's face at the end of WoO when they tell him he could do whatever he wanted without consequences. It was just too leering.

In contrast, CJ's performance for the Sam/Teal'c moment at the end of Unending

Spoiler:

when she says it must be torture for Teal'c not to tell them all that happened while they were in the time-dilation field, and he looks right at her for long meaningful moments, smiles and says yes...

- much better

And like Frostfox I am not endeared to Sam's "twinsets", but I don't think of those as "shippy", just bad choices. For that matter, the canon Sam/Pete shippy moment "up enough?" is forever tainted in my eyes because I wasn't keen on her get-up there, either. Sam can look gorgeous in BDUs, in biker leathers, and when she's dolled up - choices for The Road Not Taken were far far better. In that episode she was hot!

[Frostfox]

I've been disappointed in his behaviour at times (the leer at the end of WoO for instance) but never in his mindset: Jack always seemed to be in control of whether or not he made inappropriate comments about Sam. That didn't seem to be the case during s7 and s8 for Sam: I got the impression that her feelings over Jack were, if not controlling her, then having a heck of a lot of influence over her.

The leer in WoO was horrible, creepy. I didn't like the idea of Jack having kissed her without her knowing. The scene with the snog was clearly played for laughs, with that yellow hat, how could it not be? But the leer afterwards, given the differences in age and rank between them, was tasteless, crude and disrespectful. Any man looking at me like that would regret it.

Yeah, the look on Jack's face at the end of WoO when they tell him he could do whatever he wanted without consequences. It was just too leering.

In contrast, CJ's performance for the Sam/Teal'c moment at the end of Unending

Spoiler:

when she says it must be torture for Teal'c not to tell them all that happened while they were in the time-dilation field, and he looks right at her for long meaningful moments, smiles and says yes...

- much better

Teal'c is always the dark horse. That was a beautiful scene.

I've liked a lot of what Sam has worn off duty in season 10, and Daniel

Spoiler:

Thinking of the library jeans in Bounty

but then I can be equally shallow over both Sam and Daniel.

FF

[borgprincess]

You guys thought that was creepy? That was the first ep of Stargate I properly watched, and I thought it was...funny...it wasn't like he sexually assaulted her in one of the loops, she returned that kiss.

Not that I'm going against the general purpose of this thread. I don't think they would suit in a relationship, mainly because the time it could have happened is long past. I'll be interested to see how they interact in the movies, given that so much time has passed since they've been in the same episode. But it became too much like a soap opera- he likes her but unsure how she feels and doesn't want to lose her, she likes him, but unsure how he feels and doesn't want to defy regulations...that whole moment in Threads when she went to see him and began to discuss their relationship just made me cringe, it really ruined my enjoyment in the show. The writers should never have let it get to that point, where people like me [because it's all about me!] felt uncomfortable watching the personal interactions of the characters. Either stick them together or keep it clean of this kind of turmoil, because it detracts from the quality of the show. I used to be a shipper, but after all these years of waiting, it just grew old and I lost interest.

[grasshopper64]

You guys thought that was creepy? That was the first ep of Stargate I properly watched, and I thought it was...funny...it wasn't like he sexually assaulted her in one of the loops, she returned that kiss.

Not that I'm going against the general purpose of this thread. I don't think they would suit in a relationship, mainly because the time it could have happened is long past. I'll be interested to see how they interact in the movies, given that so much time has passed since they've been in the same episode. But it became too much like a soap opera- he likes her but unsure how she feels and doesn't want to lose her, she likes him, but unsure how he feels and doesn't want to defy regulations...that whole moment in Threads when she went to see him and began to discuss their relationship just made me cringe, it really ruined my enjoyment in the show. The writers should never have let it get to that point, where people like me [because it's all about me!] felt uncomfortable watching the personal interactions of the characters. Either stick them together or keep it clean of this kind of turmoil, because it detracts from the quality of the show. I used to be a shipper, but after all these years of waiting, it just grew old and I lost interest.

I can sympathise with shippers to a degree because TPTB have time and time again dragged up the ship when it should IMO have been left to rest. Of course it started in S4, but then S5 and 6 were pretty much ship free - then they had to go and bring it up again in S7. Personally I'm thankful to have a ship (slash) where they have never gone anywhere with canon-wise, subtext if you want to see it, yes, but canon, no. The hassle of expecting TPTB to do something with your ship, and hoping they can do it justice, just not worth it.

I hope in Continuum Sam and Jack can interact like they did in The Shroud, like two adults who have spent so much time working together, and there will be no ship in sight. I really hope they don't bring an AU Jack/Sam into it and somehow sneak in the ship that way........

Regarding Window of opportunity, I think we've talked about it before here, I saw that kiss as just Jack being bored and he did it because he knew Sam wouldn't remember, which I think he wouldn't have done if he had genuine feelings for her, especially as he did it in front of the whole gateroom and Hammond. Not to mention I think it was disrepectful to Sam because she wouldn't know a thing about it afterwards. It's the leering look Jack gave her at the end that I think most people found creepy, it did IMO kind of make him look like a dirty old man, even if it was just a kiss.....

[Frostfox]

Regarding Window of opportunity, I think we've talked about it before here, I saw that kiss as just Jack being bored and he did it because he knew Sam wouldn't remember, which I think he wouldn't have done if he had genuine feelings for her, especially as he did it in front of the whole gateroom and Hammond. Not to mention I think it was disrepectful to Sam because she wouldn't know a thing about it afterwards. It's the leering look Jack gave her at the end that I think most people found creepy, it did IMO kind of make him look like a dirty old man, even if it was just a kiss.....

The leer bothered me, mostly because it made me aware of the age gap again

Spoiler:

as with the scene of him spying on her in the showers in 200, I'm doing my best to totally ignore that scene as I find it really, really creepy and not at all funny

.
I don't think about it very often; there are plenty of other issues with Sam and Jack which I find more distasteful than the age gap but when they do rub our noses in it, I start to remember that he's a whole 15 plus years older than her; when Sam was born, Jack was a teenager, when she was toddling around he was out dating girls, when she was about six he was most likely already in a relationship with Sara (if not Sara, another adult) and then it brings home how far apart they really are.

FF

[scarimor]

The leer bothered me, mostly because it made me aware of the age gap again

Spoiler:

as with the scene of him spying on her in the showers in 200, I'm doing my best to totally ignore that scene as I find it really, really creepy and not at all funny

I get over that scene by holding in my mind the

Spoiler:

roll-of-the-eyes expression on Sam's face when he confirms her suspicions by revealing his presence.

She is so clearly bored by/dismissive of/uninterested in the Jack palava in that moment it warms me no end

I don't think about it very often; there are plenty of other issues with Sam and Jack which I find more distasteful than the age gap but when they do rub our noses in it, I start to remember that he's a whole 15 plus years older than her; when Sam was born, Jack was a teenager, when she was toddling around he was out dating girls, when she was about six he was most likely already in a relationship with Sara (if not Sara, another adult) and then it brings home how far apart they really are.

I confess the age gap doesn't bother me. They're both adults now and have been for some time. It's the whole other stuff.

[Frostfox]

I confess the age gap doesn't bother me. They're both adults now and have been for some time. It's the whole other stuff.

What?

The conduct unbecoming in pair of decorated USAF officers?
Sam's Elektra problem?
The demeaning of characters (particularly Sam) just to forward a limp plot?
The juvenile 'I wuv him does he wuv me?' which they dragged out ad nauseam?
The lack of romantic chemistry?

Take your pick (I'm sure you have more).

The age difference only bothers me when they do something to emphasise it. If I was writing the show, I'd have played it much more carefully. Well, if it had been me, I wouldn't have touched the idea with a ten foot barge pole.

FF