Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[JessM]

I don't think it's so much animosity between S/J fans and D/J fans. Having watched it as someone who is definitely not a S/J fan, but reads a bit of J/D (and has even been known to write some! ), I've come to the conclusion that it's a pretty one-sided phenomenon of a few hard-core Daniel-fans (not J/D slashers per se, but some will be that as well) who see the canon S/J (such as it is) as a threat, and see Sam's story-lines as a threat to Daniel's status.

Frankly, I do not know any S/J shipper who gives two hoots about J/D stuff, because any slash is in fanfic and they don't read it. Jack and Daniel on-screen friendship is hardly a rival to the on-screen Sam/Jack we've endured been treated to over seasons 4 to 7. What they (and many fans, regardless of their prefered pairings or non-shippery tendencies) do roll their eyes at (and a few get very mad about) is the long term campaign coming from the Daniel quarter by a few loudmouths against Sam (and even against Amanda) because she's 'in the way'.

Libelous entries on IMDB about Amanda, re-writing of episode scenes and dialogue (literally!) to re-cast Sam in a bad light, malicious comments to JM's blog etc. - this is not a ship rivalry. As you point out, ship rivals are perfectly capable of getting along. It's something far more distasteful. When a Daniel fan insists that "Stargate is Daniel's story" and "MS is co-lead with RDA, and AT (and by implication CJ too, but they don't mention that) is just a supporting actor" etc., things become clear.

I've never seen a S/J shipper moan that Jack/Daniel ruined their show (well they wouldn't, would they? Because slash isn't canon) or that Daniel gets too much screentime, or that Daniel is taking Jack away from Sam, or that Daniel is jealous of Sam. But the reverse is abundant among those select Daniel fans who seem to spend more time dissing a character they hate than talking about the one they love. Go elsewhere, and you'll see a thread dedicated to Sam's supposed jealousy of Daniel (really? Sam jealous of Daniel? Of what, precisely, and in which episode did her surprising jealousy manifest itself?)

I know some hard-core Daniel fans who are huge fans of Daniel/Vala (one of the reasons being that it makes Daniel the center of the show and gives him more screen-time) and seem to hate Sam. I remember the outcry when Vala left after ep. 6 of Season 9 and Sam came back, especially on one website in particular. These Daniel, Vala, and D/V fanatics were so angry by a rather innocuous (IMHO anyway) comment Sam made about Vala being a "backup singer." Some suggested it was Sam who was the backup singer, and Vala the "real" member of SG-1. They called Sam and AT nasty names too.

When I told them on another thread that one of my misgivings about D/V was that it seemed to take away from his friendships with Sam and Teal'c. One of these huge Daniel fans mentioned that Daniel couldn't be more than coworkers with Sam because she was always too busy chasing "Sir." She seemed resentful of Sam and said that Sam was mean to Daniel in various season 7 eps (probably Grace and Chimera - although I didn't see her being "mean" to him).

Someone also mentioned to me at one time that MS had said he didn't like the S/J ship because he felt that SG-1 was based around Jack and Daniel's relationship (I guess he meant interation/friendship) and he felt that Sam and Teal'c were just supporting characters. I honestly don't remember him saying the latter. I've heard quotes from him about not caring for the ship stuff, but if he did say any of the other stuff let me know so I don't feel too ignorant.

Sure, some S/J shippers might insist on certain things that are pro their ship which we would dispute - e.g. that Sam and Jack are doing it Washington every time she visits, and that's why she's late back to the SGC ho ho ho - but again, that's nothing to do with Daniel or a rivalry with J/D slash. It just stands on its own. They are no more in conflict with J/D fans than they are with the femslashers.

As for the poor beleagured Sam/Daniel fans - I don't know what they can make of it

We just sit back as mere observers I guess... and try to fend off the more rogue elements of the other ships who like to attack us and say we have no basis for being a fan of our pairing. To be honest most of the shippers I've run into were pretty nice and accepting, but there are always a handful who take it way too seriously and feel they're always right.

I don't remember if I mentioned it here before (if I did, just ignore me, lol), but I read a fic on FF.net that was Cam/Vala. The author snuck in a S/J wedding. I told him it would've been nice if he'd mentioned S/J in the pairings. He got totally defensive, telling me that he is a S/J shipper so he'll have S/J in his stories even if he doesn't state so in the notes. Wow. He insisted to me that it was canon (and gave examples from virtually every single ep from COTG on) and that S/J is the show. Huh, that's a new one on me.

I honestly don't have a problem with people's ships, but when they insist that they're 100% right, I'm 100% wrong and that's all there is to it (about something which I personally feel is in the eye of the beholder), and they need to convert me, that's when my hackles go up.

[Madeleine]

I know some hard-core Daniel fans who are huge fans of Daniel/Vala (one of the reasons being that it makes Daniel the center of the show and gives him more screen-time) and seem to hate Sam. I remember the outcry when Vala left after ep. 6 of Season 9 and Sam came back, especially on one website in particular. These Daniel, Vala, and D/V fanatics were so angry by a rather innocuous (IMHO anyway) comment Sam made about Vala being a "backup singer." Some suggested it was Sam who was the backup singer, and Vala the "real" member of SG-1. They called Sam and AT nasty names too.

And now we're really off topic.

sorry, but you want to complain random complaints about other fans, this isn't the thread.

Someone also mentioned to me at one time that MS had said he didn't like the S/J ship because he felt that SG-1 was based around Jack and Daniel's relationship (I guess he meant interation/friendship)

Not exactly.

and he felt that Sam and Teal'c were just supporting characters.

Not at all! (What does that have to do with the anti-S/J-shipness referred to in the thread title, btw?)

We just sit back as mere observers I guess... and try to fend off the more rogue elements of the other ships who like to attack us and say we have no basis for being a fan of our pairing.

I see far more complaints about people complaining about people's ship preferences than I ever see about anyone's ship preferences. It's puzzling.

[Hubble]

It might be, at times, but that all falls to pieces as soon as the messy split occurs. What, Sam and Jack are so in love that they'd never split / never split messily? Okay, I'll run with that for you, but then so is everyone that much in love that they'd never split... right up till they split . And the only way to prevent messy splits is to prevent the fraternisation in the first place, including for those who'd never ever split.

I totally agree, and it boggles my mind that when those same fans who say S/J ship is bad because of the regulations (when in fact S/J haven't had any romantic physical relationship at all) are all for the D/V 'thing,' saying it's OK because neither of them are military. Civilians attached to military units ARE subject to the same fraternization rules. Like if were to get together and then split up, it wouldn't have the same effect (on the team) as J/S splitting up? In a life threatening situation, Daniel wouldn't show any favoritism toward saving Vala's life over Carter's or Teal'c because of his feelings for her?

I get it if a person thinks that S/J have no chemistry, or if they don't like that ship because of what they feel it's done to Carter's character, but using the "regs" reasoning for S/J while supporting D/V ship is so goofy, IMO.

[Frostfox]

I totally agree, and it boggles my mind that when those same fans who say S/J ship is bad because of the regulations (when in fact S/J haven't had any romantic physical relationship at all) are all for the D/V 'thing,' saying it's OK because neither of them are military. Civilians attached to military units ARE subject to the same fraternization rules. Like if were to get together and then split up, it wouldn't have the same effect (on the team) as J/S splitting up? In a life threatening situation, Daniel wouldn't show any favoritism toward saving Vala's life over Carter's or Teal'c because of his feelings for her?

I get it if a person thinks that S/J have no chemistry, or if they don't like that ship because of what they feel it's done to Carter's character, but using the "regs" reasoning for S/J while supporting D/V ship is so goofy, IMO.

Rest assured, most of us on this thread didn't want to see D/V any more than we did S/J.

FF

[scarimor]

snipped as original post was deleted and poster requested removal of quote.

Insiders? That rings a bell. As a matter of OT interest, is this the giving Baal information (whose release didn't pose an immediate threat) to avert the immediate execution of hostages one? Like Daniel gave up information to the Trust to avert the immediate execution of hostages?

Of course in the real world there's no way she'd be court martialed, because as her CO pointed out she did the right thing. Whether the writers knew it or not, they wrote an excellent example of how a captive weighs up competing threat/immediacy to decide on the lesser of two unwelcome choices in that scene. It could have come out of a training manual

ETA: lol, now I remember that I was impressed enough to write about it months ago
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=314

And I'd rather not have any SG1 people in Atlantis, but I'd certainly rather it have been Daniel, or almost any of the others, before Sam. I'm sorry if you think that makes me a bad person,

Well read again then because it doesn't. And your suggestion that I said it did is uncalled for.

but I don't see it as any different than the people who hate Weir, or Vala, or Cam, or Teyla (poor Teyla has an Anti-Teyla thread all to herself now ).

Neither do I. Tell me where I said it is.

I've "had issues with S/J ship all along" too.

[EarthandBeyond]

It might be, at times, but that all falls to pieces as soon as the messy split occurs. What, Sam and Jack are so in love that they'd never split / never split messily? Okay, I'll run with that for you, but then so is everyone that much in love that they'd never split... right up till they split . And the only way to prevent messy splits is to prevent the fraternisation in the first place, including for those who'd never ever split.

It can lead to other unpleasantnesses. For instance, what if Major X thinks that her boyfriend Lieutenant Y is the best canditate for a plum mission? she gives it to him, and Lieutenant Z and his friend who think he was the ideal candidate get jealous. Or she second-guesses herself and wonders if she is prejudiced or pre-empts the gossiping by handing the role to a less qualified sort. it's lose-lose. Or in a split second decision, which of two soldiers does she save? No matter how well she makes her decision, if it's her BF who she feels is the one to save there'll be guilt, recrimination, accusations...

The inspiration you speak of can work fine with platonic relationships and fine between a junior and a senior officer in separate units. It's not a good enough reason to allow sexual relationships between people in the same chain of command; or to allow officers who are having a relationship to report to each other.


A policy of living for today may suit some, but it doesn't suit others. If I overeat on chocolate, my sporting abilities suffer, and i'd regret that in the long term, but the chocolate I only regret in the short term. There's always a payoff. If two officers have an impulse, they can follow it and take the consequences (transferring to another unit, hardly a big deal) or they can choose work over love - and if your work is that wonderful or important, then perhaps it would be worth the regrets.

I don't think that refraining from getting together with a fellow officer with whom you have NO CHEMISTRY AT ALL (sorry - but this is the thread in which to say that ) is not enough of a big deal to turn you into a robot. Sex life is one of many many thins that make us human, and a single decision about who not to have as your life-partner isn't going to make you any less passionate about music, chess, motorcycles, any less fond of your family and friends, any less committed to your job, or any less capable of changing your mind when the time is right

Hurrah for elastic!

Wow what can one say to something as well wrighten with lots of great points as that...Ah,but..birds of a feather...

[Frostfox]

Wow what can one say to something as well wrighten with lots of great points as that...Ah,but..birds of a feather...

I'm not sure what your point is?
Do you want to discuss with us what a clumsy, unsatisfying, illegal relationship Sam and Jack would have had if the writers had ever actually done anything with that plot thread or not?
We love discussing the lack of chemistry, the dreadful characterisation, the pointless storylines, the insult to the USAF, what was it about the relationship which you disliked the most?

FF

[Madeleine]

I get it if a person thinks that S/J have no chemistry, or if they don't like that ship because of what they feel it's done to Carter's character, but using the "regs" reasoning for S/J while supporting D/V ship is so goofy, IMO.

I agree, but I suppose there may be cases where a lack of chemistry makes someone anti-S/J and once they are anti-S/J then all the other reasons (age difference, regs, their reputations etc) can take on a greater significance. Personally, I think the regs are a jolly good thing, but I'd say screw the regs if I thought a couple's onscreen chemistry was good enough to warrant the dismissal of something as sensible as the non-fraternisation rules.

I'd also have less hostility to breaking the regs if one or more of them were a civillian. I think one reason I find the idea of S/J unwelcome (particularly when they were both at the SGC) is the way that in the military, if a senior officer says jump you jump, and I know that people can keep their personal lives and professional lives separate, but I cannot believe that thetwo spheres wouldn't infect each other just a little, and I find the whole "obey" concept that used to be in the marriage vows so odious in this age that even the echo of it in the relationship would seem iccky to me.

[Jace021903]

I agree, but I suppose there may be cases where a lack of chemistry makes someone anti-S/J and once they are anti-S/J then all the other reasons (age difference, regs, their reputations etc) can take on a greater significance. Personally, I think the regs are a jolly good thing, but I'd say screw the regs if I thought a couple's onscreen chemistry was good enough to warrant the dismissal of something as sensible as the non-fraternisation rules.

I'd also have less hostility to breaking the regs if one or more of them were a civillian. I think one reason I find the idea of S/J unwelcome (particularly when they were both at the SGC) is the way that in the military, if a senior officer says jump you jump, and I know that people can keep their personal lives and professional lives separate, but I cannot believe that thetwo spheres wouldn't infect each other just a little, and I find the whole "obey" concept that used to be in the marriage vows so odious in this age that even the echo of it in the relationship would seem iccky to me.

I think the writers have been very careful to not really change the status quo with Sam and Jack precisely because of the military sponsorship of the show. I read somewhere that the AU Sams in the early seasons were supposed to be military but the advisor nixed it because of the ship angle. They give little bits of ship to the shippers but nothing that they could really get called on.

On the other hand I don't think that they (the advisors) care one way or the other about what happens between Vala and Daniel so they writers can take things farther.

[Major Tyler]

This thread is temporarily closed for "maintenance."

Edit: Reopened...obviously.

[JessM]

I think the writers have been very careful to not really change the status quo with Sam and Jack precisely because of the military sponsorship of the show. I read somewhere that the AU Sams in the early seasons were supposed to be military but the advisor nixed it because of the ship angle. They give little bits of ship to the shippers but nothing that they could really get called on.

On the other hand I don't think that they (the advisors) care one way or the other about what happens between Vala and Daniel so they writers can take things farther.

I didn't know that about the AU Sam's in the early seasons... that's interesting.

Guess it's a bit o/t but I've heard from people who have family in the military that even if two people on the same team aren't military (as Daniel and Vala aren't), a relationship between them would still be frowned upon. But as you said, it could be that the advisor doesn't find it a big deal...

[grasshopper64]

I didn't know that about the AU Sam's in the early seasons... that's interesting.

Guess it's a bit o/t but I've heard from people who have family in the military that even if two people on the same team aren't military (as Daniel and Vala aren't), a relationship between them would still be frowned upon. But as you said, it could be that the advisor doesn't find it a big deal...

A little OT but some would argue that they mysteriously lost the air force advisor in S9 & 10

Personally I think relationships between team members are wrong period, the same rules about relationships should apply as much to civilians as to military people. That is partly why I'm as much anti D/V as S/J, romance between team members IMO jeopardises team spirit and threatens team friendships.
And I don't want to see it happen onscreen.

I did actually want to bring something up here that I've seen mentioned around.
Apparently when some people went on a set tour during the Vancouver con, on Sam's desk there is are pictures of Daniel, Cassie and Sam and Jack fishing.
Now I haven't actually seen said pics because I'm not going to go into those threads where they probably are and of course they're just pics and we may not necessarily see them on screen (I think there was some speculation that they may have been put there because there were people looking round)

But I have to ask if we see them why Sam and Jack, I mean what is this supposed to imply, that they have something going on, that Sam's still hung up over him after all this time, and it's SGA, hello different show! Let's leave the S/J stuff out of it. Plus what is anyone who sees this pic supposed to think? I mean at least Jack had a team pic, at his house and in his office, why couldn't Sam have the same? I also have to admit IMO the whole equating fishing with ship is getting a little old.....

[Frostfox]

I also have to admit IMO the whole equating fishing with ship is getting a little old.....

I never got the 'fishing=sex' correlation. If it does, what does that say for Jack inviting Daniel 'fishing' or Teal'c actually going fishing with him in The Curse?
Either it means sex or it doesn't, you can't have it both ways. If it had only been something between Sam and her commanding officer, that's one thing, but it was something between the whole team and Jack, up to and including the ends of Threads and Moebus.

FF

[Dani347]

I never got the 'fishing=sex' correlation.
FF

Well, I understand it. I mean who can resist "Wanna bait my hook?" as a pick up line? *wiggles eyebrows suggestively*

[Frostfox]

Well, I understand it. I mean who can resist "Hey, baby, I have a worm on the end of this hook just for you?" as a pick up line? *wiggles eyebrows suggestively* Um, should I have gone with the more PG rated "Wanna bait my hook?" line?

Okay... no more beer for you, Dani347.

FF