Jack O'Neill/ Sam Carter - Part of a team, not a ship

[Pagan Twylight]

Spoilers just in case I go into stuff some people haven't seen yet.

Spoiler:

I don't like Daniel/Vala, and I so agree that Sam/Daniel and Daniel/Teal'c suffered because of it but it doesn't make me want to heave the way the Sam/Jack does.
The writers deconstructed and all but wreaked Sam's character (and still would even if she ended up in relationship now they aren't CO and 2IC, everyone would still assume that she slept her way to the promotions) with a pointless and forced relationship.
They haven't done Vala any favours with shoehorning into a sexual relationship with Daniel but it doesn't get my hackles up in quite the same way. Mostly, I think, because I was much fonder of Sam, I had ten years to know and love her, than I am of Vala, the writing of whom has been much less consistant and skillful. I prefer the cool Vala of Prometheus Unbound to the pig tails and girlishness of most of season 9/10 Vala

FF

Actually, I wasn't thinking of Vala's character...

Spoiler:

I was thinking of Daniel's and since I am very fond of "Daniel" I found pairing him in a relationship with someone who is obviously not his type heave worthy. Don't get me wrong, I really really like the character of Vala, but she is not DJ material...Sam would have been a much better fit if they just absolutely had to have 'ship' which personally I find very debatable. In fact, ship of any type simply kills more and more of the show. It is a show about friends, not lovers, and every time they do this, I think they lose a little more of the fan base.

At any rate, I know that I am now not sure if I even want to spend the money on the movies... if there is that in there....why should I waste my money?
Pagan

[Frostfox]

Actually, I wasn't thinking of Vala's character...

Spoiler:

I was thinking of Daniel's and since I am very fond of "Daniel" I found pairing him in a relationship with someone who is obviously not his type heave worthy. Don't get me wrong, I really really like the character of Vala, but she is not DJ material...Sam would have been a much better fit if they just absolutely had to have 'ship' which personally I find very debatable. In fact, ship of any type simply kills more and more of the show. It is a show about friends, not lovers, and every time they do this, I think they lose a little more of the fan base.

At any rate, I know that I am now not sure if I even want to spend the money on the movies... if there is that in there....why should I waste my money?
Pagan

Unending

Spoiler:

If I had to choose, gun against the head time, I would have preferred Sam with Daniel rather than Vala, but I'm with you, I don't see why they have to show interteam relationships at all. It's so not what I watch Stargate for.
I found Daniel's rant to be out of character and no matter how well acted, out of character is out of character.

FF

[Pagan Twylight]

Unending

Spoiler:

If I had to choose, gun against the head time, I would have preferred Sam with Daniel rather than Vala, but I'm with you, I don't see why they have to show interteam relationships at all. It's so not what I watch Stargate for.
I found Daniel's rant to be out of character and no matter how well acted, out of character is out of character.

FF

Spoiler:

Even though all I've done is read the transcript to see if I could stomach it when it finally gets to the US, I have to say, "Absolutely". I firmly beleive that the writers have never bothered to watch any of the early season episodes and they have obviously watched very few of the mid season ones as well. I hate to say it, but I should have stopped watching when Jonathan Glassner left the show...Not saying there aren't good episodes in later seasons because there are...they are just far too far between them. I should have stopped the minute they killed Martouf. I would have saved myself a whole lot of headaches, not to mention threats by my stomach to return my last meal. Oh, well, maybe some kind soul will do a transcript of the movie before I buy it. Although, from what i understand, Tomin is back and he is at the SGC with them so if we are lucky, Vala will stick to helping him and leave Daniel alone. Yeah, right.

Pagan

[Frostfox]

Spoiler:

Even though all I've done is read the transcript to see if I could stomach it when it finally gets to the US, I have to say, "Absolutely". I firmly beleive that the writers have never bothered to watch any of the early season episodes and they have obviously watched very few of the mid season ones as well. I hate to say it, but I should have stopped watching when Jonathan Glassner left the show...Not saying there aren't good episodes in later seasons because there are...they are just far too far between them. I should have stopped the minute they killed Martouf. I would have saved myself a whole lot of headaches, not to mention threats by my stomach to return my last meal. Oh, well, maybe some kind soul will do a transcript of the movie before I buy it. Although, from what i understand, Tomin is back and he is at the SGC with them so if we are lucky, Vala will stick to helping him and leave Daniel alone. Yeah, right.

Pagan

I do sometimes wonder if the writers had been better, would I have found the stumbling attempts at writing realistic relationships less annoying?
I doubt there would be anything they could have realistically done to make me like Sam having an inappropriate relationship with her commanding officer, but some of the other clumsy relationships they have attempted? Possibly. It's not what interests me in skiffy but I managed seven years of DS9 without ever getting really annoyed with the various pairings, whether I was interested in them or no.

But SG1 is over, they can do no further damage, I always have the option of just not bothering to buy the films, for me, and for most of the viewing audience, SG1 canon ended with season 10, episode 20 and while I wish they hadn't

Spoiler:

done what they did with Vala and Daniel, at least they pressed the re-start button and went back to the status quo with the characters

in the end, they didn't go with Sam and Jack and for that, I will always be grateful.

FF

[Pagan Twylight]

I do sometimes wonder if the writers had been better, would I have found the stumbling attempts at writing realistic relationships less annoying?
I doubt there would be anything they could have realistically done to make me like Sam having an inappropriate relationship with her commanding officer, but some of the other clumsy relationships they have attempted? Possibly. It's not what interests me in skiffy but I managed seven years of DS9 without ever getting really annoyed with the various pairings, whether I was interested in them or no.

But SG1 is over, they can do no further damage, I always have the option of just not bothering to buy the films, for me, and for most of the viewing audience, SG1 canon ended with season 10, episode 20 and while I wish they hadn't

Spoiler:

done what they did with Vala and Daniel, at least they pressed the re-start button and went back to the status quo with the characters

in the end, they didn't go with Sam and Jack and for that, I will always be grateful.

FF

There were only a few relationships I could handle. Sam/Lantash, Sam/Daniel, and toward the end Cam/Vala... I would also have loved to see Jack/Sara. And I could handle Daniel/Sha'uri, at least it was canon from the movie.

I would never have bought a relationship between Sam/Jack because of the regulations. I found it extremely insulting to the US military which I happen to hold in high regard.

Spoiler:

I find myself hoping that the "make-believe" wedding of Sam Jack is the ending of that, and that this time thing is the way to shut the Vala/Daniel crowd up. I can only hope...I mean, what possible future is there for a couple whose initials stand for veneral disease?

I'm really hoping to see a new stargate Movie that follows on from the original but we haven't heard anything so that is probably dead, too. It is really sad.

Spoiler:

Of course, we can always hope that when they reset in the second movie, they don't screw it up by taking things back to the status quo like they always have before.

I hold out little hope of that happening either...in fact, I'm beginning to feel like you. The entire thing is dead. And for me, if AT wasn't going to be on Atlantis, it would include that show as well. It has no real characters that make me want to see them every week, so.... I guess for me that the end of sg1 signals the end of all of it unless they can pull a miracle out of their second movie. I will not hold my breath for that to happen.

Pagan

[Frostfox]

I would never have bought a relationship between Sam/Jack because of the regulations. I found it extremely insulting to the US military which I happen to hold in high regard.

Well, exactly. Which is why it was foolish of the writers to go there in the first place; they were never going to be able to give any sort of satisfying resolution to the fans who did approve of two decorated millitary officers behaving in such an unprofessional manner. Stargate was very proud of the support of the US Airforce, what a great way to thank them.

Spoiler:

I find myself hoping that the "make-believe" wedding of Sam Jack is the ending of that, and that this time thing is the way to shut the Vala/Daniel crowd up. I can only hope...I mean, what possible future is there for a couple whose initials stand for veneral disease?

I hadn't thought that about V/D (possibly because I type it D/V!)

Spoiler:

200 was full of jokes, the wedding being one of them. They really went to town on all the fanfic clichés, didn't they? Though they missed a trick and didn't do the wedding on the ramp! I liked Martin's comment about not torturing the audience, gave us a glimpse of what they really felt about it all.

I'm really hoping to see a new stargate Movie that follows on from the original but we haven't heard anything so that is probably dead, too. It is really sad.

Spoiler:

Of course, we can always hope that when they reset in the second movie, they don't screw it up by taking things back to the status quo like they always have before.

I hold out little hope of that happening either...in fact, I'm beginning to feel like you. The entire thing is dead. And for me, if AT wasn't going to be on Atlantis, it would include that show as well. It has no real characters that make me want to see them every week, so.... I guess for me that the end of sg1 signals the end of all of it unless they can pull a miracle out of their second movie. I will not hold my breath for that to happen.

Pagan

I don't have much interest in a film following on from the original Stargate movie, I don't have any emotional attachment to that, it's too long ago, it would, for me, be a curio, nothing more.

I don't really feel that Stargate is 'dead' for me in a negative manner, just that it has reached a mostly satisfactory conclusion, like a book, it had a beginning, a middle and an end and is now finished.
Atlantis hasn't grabbed me, though I might start watching now

Spoiler:

Sam is going over there, I'm very fond of Sam.

Though again, those in control of the franchise have been clumsy and stirring up controversy with

Spoiler:

making cast changes at the same time as bringing in an established character from another show.

There are some fabulous fanfic writers out there, particularly on LJ. I can see them keeping my interest for a time yet.

FF

[Liv]

Now that SG-1 is officially over (not counting the movies), I have to say that the only good thing that the Sam/Jack “now-you-see-it, now-you-don’t” trainwreck of a ship ever brought to Stargate, IMO, was that Sam could finally be allowed to be her own person again in seasons 9 and 10. I actually enjoyed her character again! Not to mention that she could interact with Mitchell (a.k.a the supposed Lead Hero Guy) on a friendly basis instead of simply being shipped with him. She could laugh and smile and tease (“I just think it’s funny how you’re always loosing your pants”) and be relaxed, as opposed to all the angsty, eye-gougingly awkward stuff she had to say and do when she was around Jack. I just found the friendly banter between Sam and Cameron in the last two seasons incredibly refreshing!

I still dread the potential of Sam/Jack ship in the movies, but at least the show itself ended without them being together.

[Frostfox]

Now that SG-1 is officially over (not counting the movies), I have to say that the only good thing that the Sam/Jack “now-you-see-it, now-you-don’t” trainwreck of a ship ever brought to Stargate, IMO, was that Sam could finally be allowed to be her own person again in seasons 9 and 10. I actually enjoyed her character again! Not to mention that she could interact with Mitchell (a.k.a the supposed Lead Hero Guy) on a friendly basis instead of simply being shipped with him. She could laugh and smile and tease (“I just think it’s funny how you’re always loosing your pants”) and be relaxed, as opposed to all the angsty, eye-gougingly awkward stuff she had to say and do when she was around Jack. I just found the friendly banter between Sam and Cameron in the last two seasons incredibly refreshing!

I still dread the potential of Sam/Jack ship in the movies, but at least the show itself ended without them being together.

It was refreshing, wasn't it?

I was always saddened that they took away all the potential for a lovely mentor/pupil relationship between Sam and Jack by making the cheap sexual innuendo between them. It would have been so much more mature and iconoclastic to keep them as Commanding Officer and 2IC and showing how he grooms her for command, how they act like honourable members of the USAF despite the difference in gender.

But, happily, it's over now, closed canon and in the end, they didn't disgrace Sam and Jack by ending with a marriage on the gate ramp and Sam being chained barefoot in the kitchen, they ended as they began, officers in the USAF doing their best to defend earth from the enemy. Which is how it should be, shame about the wasted stuff in between.

FF

[grasshopper64]

Now that SG-1 is officially over (not counting the movies), I have to say that the only good thing that the Sam/Jack “now-you-see-it, now-you-don’t” trainwreck of a ship ever brought to Stargate, IMO, was that Sam could finally be allowed to be her own person again in seasons 9 and 10. I actually enjoyed her character again! Not to mention that she could interact with Mitchell (a.k.a the supposed Lead Hero Guy) on a friendly basis instead of simply being shipped with him. She could laugh and smile and tease (“I just think it’s funny how you’re always loosing your pants”) and be relaxed, as opposed to all the angsty, eye-gougingly awkward stuff she had to say and do when she was around Jack. I just found the friendly banter between Sam and Cameron in the last two seasons incredibly refreshing!

I still dread the potential of Sam/Jack ship in the movies, but at least the show itself ended without them being together.

I do agree with you , but unfortunately we've been subjected to D/V instead, which IMO completely ruined unending for me, and just my opinion but what they've done with D/V is far worse than what they did with S/J.
As to the movies, well who knows what TPTB will do, I hope that both will be free of any ship whatsoever.

I hope the second movie can be like The Shroud was with Sam and Jack being able to interact like adults in a non-shippy way, and Jack interacting with all of the others.

[Liv]

It was refreshing, wasn't it?

Very. I can just picture how Line in the Sand would have turned out, for instance, had it been Jack there, instead of Mitchell.

I was always saddened that they took away all the potential for a lovely mentor/pupil relationship between Sam and Jack by making the cheap sexual innuendo between them. It would have been so much more mature and iconoclastic to keep them as Commanding Officer and 2IC and showing how he grooms her for command, how they act like honourable members of the USAF despite the difference in gender.

Yes, I agree. I had similar hopes. And it would have made for such a nice exception to the unwritten rule that all male/female leads must inevitably end up with romantic feelings for each other. I watched the show because of the team aspect - and because I loved the notion that they became a family who protected each other and stood by one another - not because of the "Secret love story of Jack O'Neill and Samantha Carter... and, oh yeah, those two other guys over there".

But, happily, it's over now, closed canon and in the end, they didn't disgrace Sam and Jack by ending with a marriage on the gate ramp and Sam being chained barefoot in the kitchen, they ended as they began, officers in the USAF doing their best to defend earth from the enemy. Which is how it should be, shame about the wasted stuff in between.

FF

Indeed.

I do agree with you , but unfortunately we've been subjected to D/V instead, which IMO completely ruined unending for me, and just my opinion but what they've done with D/V is far worse than what they did with S/J.

Oh, yes, the Daniel/Vala ship... I ranted about that over in the Anti-Ship thread but maybe I'll post something in the Anti D/V thread as well, because I very much agree with what you said here and I'm interested in seeing if others had the same objections to it as I did.

[Frostfox]

"Secret love story of Jack O'Neill and Samantha Carter... and, oh yeah, those two other guys over there".

Barf.
It's all about the team. Motto of this thread!

Oh, yes, the Daniel/Vala ship... I ranted about that over in the Anti-Ship thread but maybe I'll post something in the Anti D/V thread as well, because I very much agree with what you said here and I'm interested in seeing if others had the same objections to it as I did.

As I said upthread, I wasn't enamoured of D/V either but I was fonder of Sam than I was of Vala, S/J annoyed me more. But I can so sympathise with grasshopper64 and everyone else who felt that D/V was forced on them.

FF

[scarimor]

I do agree with you , but unfortunately we've been subjected to D/V instead, which IMO completely ruined unending for me,

It didn't ruin the episode for me, but I didn't like it at all and I agree that it is far worse than anything they pulled with Sam and Jack. If the show weren't over there'd be a big ol' Anti Vala/Daniel thread being started now.

Also, as I watched that Vala/Daniel scene, I couldn't help remembering the rumour (emphasis that it was unconfirmed) that RDA pushed for ship to off-set J/D slash in fandom, and then the recent noises coming from Michael Shanks re. seeing Vala/Daniel as Hepburn/Tracey or [insert classical Hollywood cinema pairing of choice] and pushing their ship too.

[grasshopper64]

The thing with Unending, TPTB managed to do the unthinkable and have
anti shippers and S/J shippers on the same side to an extent.

A lot of S/J shippers were annoyed because of what they did with D/V they couldn't do with S/J, which IMO is a fair point, why is one ok but not the other?
Personally I wish they'd just leave both well alone but a bit late for one of them...

Now I am concerned about the movies, some shippers are convinced there will be S/J in Continuum, I really hope there isn't but it wouldn't suprise me if they did something, these days I remain skeptical about what TPTB do, you just never know what they're going to do I really, really hope they don't have something like Jack retiring so he can go and be with Sam....ick.....

I remember reading about that RDA rumour, could never believe it myself and think that those 200 Jack/Daniel outtake scenes and what RDA said about them might have dispelled it
IMO I found that Tracy/Hepburn comparison ridiculous, I'm not dissing MS here, I just occasionally disagree with some of the things he says....
Stargate is supposed to be a team show not centred around two characters, but that's a little off topic........
Of course there is an opinion floating around in various places that Vala is just a Jack substitute, just saying.....

[Frostfox]

Also, as I watched that Vala/Daniel scene, I couldn't help remembering the rumour (emphasis that it was unconfirmed) that RDA pushed for ship to off-set J/D slash in fandom, and then the recent noises coming from Michael Shanks re. seeing Vala/Daniel as Hepburn/Tracey or [insert classical Hollywood cinema pairing of choice] and pushing their ship too.

Hm, having heard about the out takes from 200

Spoiler:

and RDA seemed very relaxed about Daniel/Jack at the altar, he said to the interviewer that they filmed the hand holding for themselves, which I thought was lovely, (and I was so impressed that the cast and crew applauded the shot)

and the ad-libs; such as pushing up Daniel's glasses in Serpents Lair and

Spoiler:

my most beloved hair ruffle and 'sleepyhead' in The Shroud

somehow, I get the feeling that RDA likes to have fun with it as much as MS does.
The sea change seemed to occur when Glassner left at the end of season three, but it's so long ago now, the chances of finding out for certain are slim to non-existant. It can only be speculation, seven years or more on.

I still find the animosity between the S/J fans and the D/J fans weird, we managed to get along just fine in DS9 fandom, all the different pairings, het or queer. There was some frission between the Jadzia/Julian and Jadzia/Worf fans, but it wasn't viscious and as both managed to 'get the worm' in the end, it all ended up fine.

FF

[marythebadger]

Now I am concerned about the movies, some shippers are convinced there will be S/J in Continuum, I really hope there isn't but it wouldn't suprise me if they did something, these days I remain skeptical about what TPTB do, you just never know what they're going to do I really, really hope they don't have something like Jack retiring so he can go and be with Sam....ick.....

I too totally distrust what the writers might do (though I have more hope for Brad Wright than RCC, who absolutely eviscerated the character of Jack O'Neill in the seasons RCC was showrunner) but hopefully, the writers will realize they've written themselves into another corner with that non-sensical Jack retires idea, since Carter is going off to Atlantis.
Why would Jack retire to spend his time sitting home alone waiting for Carter to show up?
It might be a win-win situation for Carter (she gets to keep her career and gets the man of her dreams on those rare occasions she's available, so the Carter fans would love the idea), but even if you buy into Jack being in love with Carter (lust, sure, he's a guy; love, never seen it from him), what would he gain from it? He gives up his career and gets what in return? An occasional roll in the hay? Now he's out of the loop with what's happening with the SGC AND he's still eating/sleeping/living alone.
Thinking Jack's spent 10 years, or even 5 years, pining over Carter isn't romantic luuuv, but turns him into someone pitiful, and *that* is not the Jack O'Neill I know.