Tok'ra Thunk/Discussion/Appreciation thread

[SF_and_Coffee]

Really? Drool?

So I think J.R. Bourne is cute. *shrug*

[SF_and_Coffee]

the tok'ra told SG-1 and company in "The Tok'ra (1 and 2)" that if they didn't wish to be host that they are close to worthless and they did not think that earth could help them in any way (!)

Actually, the Tok'ra as a whole did not say that. Garshaw said that. Garshaw is only one Tok'ra, and may possibly have begin life as a Goa'uld (this idea is hinted at vaguely in canon and fleshed out in fanon). We do see from canon that not all Tok'ra thought this way.

[SamShipper]

Tok'ra I&II: Garshaw was angry because as she saw it, the Tau'ri were disgusted by the very idea of what a symbiote was. The Tau'ri had also just killed two of the Tok'ra's operatives (albeit without knowing it and in self defence). On top of that, the revered leader Selmak was dying, and that have got to be grating on Garshaw and everyone else's nerves. The Tok'ra are used to human cultures that really do not have anything to offer except hosts (aside from the Tollan, and we all know how happy they are to help anyone in the fight against the Goa'uld...) The Tok'ra in Tok'ra I&II did not have anything but the Tau'ri's words that they were advanced, and compared to the Tok'ra, the Tau'ri were not really advanced. So I do understand where Garshaw is coming from.

Just a quick top-of-the-head list of stuff the Tok'ra and the Tau'ri have done:

The Tau'ri have offered to give hosts, but aside from Jacob seems not to have provided any. Aside from that, they have (direct help to the Tok'ra):

-given them one host, Jacob

-assisted the Tok'ra in capturing Seth (which is an advantage to both sides)

-allowed the Tok'ra to stay with them on the alpha site from Allegiance and a number of months from that. The Tau'ri were impolite and did not want them there, and the Jaffa and the Tok'ra harassed each other.

The Tok'ra have:

-Martouf/Lantash told Sam that Sokar was using sub-atomic particles to attack their iris, and told the Tau'ri about Sokar and what would make him stop the attack

-given the Tau'ri a Tollan communicator

-given the Tau'ri TERs and helped fight the Retou

-given the Tau'ri forceshield technology

-rescued Jack and Teal'c from their stranded, modded deathglider

-rescued the stranded SG-1 from the asteroid Anubis sent

-created the symbiote poison that killed a bunch of Jaffa so SG-1 and Jacob/Selmak could escape (when Elliot/Lantash offered to give their lives to bring the posion to the Jaffa)

-again and again brought valuable intel to the Tau'ri

-helped monitoring the Stargate network when Sam etc. were doing their experimentations with the Avenger virus

-changed the tretonin so it could be used to treat the people on Pangar (Egeria did this) so the Pangarans didn't die, despite them having killed millions of Tok'ra young

-changed the tretonin so the Jaffa could use it instead of symbiotes, thereby freeing them from their dependance of the Goa'uld. Probably the single most important thing done to enable the Free Jaffa rebellion.

-Egeria manipulated the Goa'uld system lords to stop harvesting hosts on Earth. We were told this in Crossroads.

-helped the Tau'ri repair teltac, so the Tau'ri could use it

-searched for Jack and Maybourne when they were missing after being teleported to the moon of an alien world (Paradise Lost, I think)

-hid Maybourne on another world when the SGC asked them to

-removed the Goa'uld symbiote from Sarah Gardener


Advantages to both:

-Freeing Jacob/Selmak and getting info about Sokar, then getting Sokar blown up. IMHO, sometimes you have to accept collateral damage - killing Sokar would have been worth killing Sam, Martouf/Lantash, Daniel, Jacob/Selmak, and Jack. You cannot seriously value the lives of a few people above the wellbeing of the whole Galaxy!

-using the atanek armbands to destroy Apophis's super-mothership

[SamShipper]

So I think J.R. Bourne is cute. *shrug*

So do I

And I ship both Sam/Martouf/Lantash and Sam/Jack (and a whole slew of others...)

[Laxian of Earth]

hm...

they have given more hosts (it is revered to in the later seasons when one of the Tok'ra leaders tells the SGC that the Tok'ra have to re-evaluate the alliance with earth and do not wish further Tauri hosts (!) - probably because they are not as easily cowed as a peasant from some slave-world!)

yes, compared to the Tolan we are not very advanced, but compared to 90% of the on-screen cultures we are very high up!

as for not helping more:

we gave them food and other supplies (i do not think the Tok'ra have much of an "industrial complex" - meaning that they need to trade for food/medicine/supplies, because they do not produce much themselves (have we ever seen a Tok'ra-Farmer or something along those lines?))

we did not harass them, the Jaffa did probably because the Tok'ra missions (sabotage, assassination etc.) caused a lot of Jaffa deaths and Jaffa attacks/executions cost a lot of Tok'ra lives so they have reasons to misstrust one an other

as for Selmak dying:

Garshaw and the rest of the council did their utmost to keep Selmak (and by that Jacob) out of the loop in later seasons that i partly think her concern was fake (hell they even used Selmak who was an elder and probably had much influence like a common operative in later seasons which just shows how much they cared (probably so he could not keep his influence and tell things to the SGC))

as for:

they did so much for earth...well, with the exception of rescuing Jack and Teal'c from the X-301 and from the asteriod (and helping out with ships in general - ships earth could have already had, had they provided technology!) did help both factions IMHO or were insignificant actions in the larger scale (removing symbiotes for example)

as for helping the Jaffa (tretonin, intelligence reports etc.) - that helped them, too (it brought the goa'uld closer to falling!)

greetings LAX
ps: note: i do not hate the Tok'ra (on some level i can understand them, but on another I would have loved for someone to give them a *****-slap (without killing them - as a reminder they are not gods themselves))

[SF_and_Coffee]

See, now I never saw most Tok'ra as wanting to keep their hosts "cowed". In my view, most of them seemed to have a more-or-less egalitarian relationship with their hosts. I also would venture to guess that most Tok'ra hosts did not come from "slave worlds" at all but from those few planets of free humans possibly abandoned by this or that Goa'uld overlord.

[Laxian of Earth]

then why would an elder and council member of them say - after confirming that hosts are rare (in earlier episodes) - that they do not want any more Tau'ri hosts?

sorry, it does not add up - and i explain it with the fact that tau'ri are not easily kept down - they tend to speak up if something is not to their liking! (and have a high moral standart thus can't accept certain SOPs the Tok'ra seem to have, like sacrificing people (and not just as a last resort, but whenever they think it would be opportune!) etc.)

i mean really, if hosts are this rare, then he would not have done it (he could not have...unless the potential hosts presented a problem - either because they did not take "direction" as well as hosts coming from primitive cultures or because their influence is something he does not want (and by influence i mean also the cultural one, like: not leaving people behind, taking action when they witness injustice (no holding still for the sake of the mission for example) etc.)

greetings LAX
ps: i do not mean the symbiotes actively supressing hosts (also in certain host symbiote pairs the host is too passive for my taste!) but keeping them in line with mainstream tok'ra believes etc. (and that is harder to do, if hosts do have a strong sense of identity, culture and morality already!)...IMHO he sees Tau'ri hosts as some kind of "cancer" and thus does not want more of them!
pps: by slave-worlds i also meant those worlds (generally i meant primitive planets of all kind)

[Skadi]

hm...

they have given more hosts (it is revered to in the later seasons when one of the Tok'ra leaders tells the SGC that the Tok'ra have to re-evaluate the alliance with earth and do not wish further Tauri hosts (!) - probably because they are not as easily cowed as a peasant from some slave-world!)

yes, compared to the Tolan we are not very advanced, but compared to 90% of the on-screen cultures we are very high up!

No, we do not know if Earth ever gave more hosts. Delek / Selmak said this:


SELMAK: Make no mistake. I am still Selmak. And I was a leader of the Tok'ra, before you had even taken a host.

DELEK: Maybe you've been a leader too long. The Tau'ri are unlike other humans in the galaxy. Their will has not been eroded by thousands of years of slavery. This can be a valuable asset, but it can also make them dangerous. Particularly as hosts.

SELMAK: Jacob Carter has had no more influence on me than any other host.

DELEK: There are those of us who would disagree. You have allowed yourself to get too close to these people Selmak. Your true loyalties are in question.

SELMAK: Do you speak for the entire council?

DELEK: You still have your defenders. Although their numbers are diminishing.


Delek talks about Selmak's host, Jacob. And he doesn't say directly that he doesn't think the Tok'ra should get hosts from Earth.

as for not helping more:

we gave them food and other supplies (i do not think the Tok'ra have much of an "industrial complex" - meaning that they need to trade for food/medicine/supplies, because they do not produce much themselves (have we ever seen a Tok'ra-Farmer or something along those lines?))

That has never even been hinted (that Earth gave the Tok'ra food and other supplies). The Tok'ra must have traded for that for thousands of years. It is no more difficult for them now than then.

Besides, we don't know what all those many Tok'ra at the bases do. We only meet those that are guards/Council runners/diplomats/operatives/on the Council, just as the Tok'ra only meet military and diplomats from Earth. We would not be shown their kitchen staff, lab assistants, or anyone in charge of hydroponics, even if there were any.

we did not harass them, the Jaffa did probably because the Tok'ra missions (sabotage, assassination etc.) caused a lot of Jaffa deaths and Jaffa attacks/executions cost a lot of Tok'ra lives so they have reasons to misstrust one an other

According to the episode, the Jaffa have troubles separating the Tok'ra from the Goa'uld, and also do not respect them because they fight covertly instead of openly. The Tok'ra have problems because 1) their hosts are from worlds where they have seen their loved one killed/attacked by Jaffa 2) Tok'ra have spent centuries or more being attacked by/running from Jaffa.

O'Neill gets off a number of nasty remarks about the Tok'ra in the episode Allegiance, they are generally not trusted, and told that they are not welcome.
In various other episodes, the Tok'ra are again and again mistrusted, called snakes/snakeheads, etc. etc. by the Tau'ri in general, and O'Neill in particular. If that is not harassing, I do not know what is.

as for Selmak dying:

Garshaw and the rest of the council did their utmost to keep Selmak (and by that Jacob) out of the loop in later seasons that i partly think her concern was fake (hell they even used Selmak who was an elder and probably had much influence like a common operative in later seasons which just shows how much they cared (probably so he could not keep his influence and tell things to the SGC))

Political infighting among two blocks (see above quote from Delek/Selmak). Unfortunate, but hardly unique to the Tok'ra.

as for:

they did so much for earth...well, with the exception of rescuing Jack and Teal'c from the X-301 and from the asteriod (and helping out with ships in general - ships earth could have already had, had they provided technology!) did help both factions IMHO or were insignificant actions in the larger scale (removing symbiotes for example)

as for helping the Jaffa (tretonin, intelligence reports etc.) - that helped them, too (it brought the goa'uld closer to falling!)

greetings LAX
ps: note: i do not hate the Tok'ra (on some level i can understand them, but on another I would have loved for someone to give them a *****-slap (without killing them - as a reminder they are not gods themselves))

If we can't count anything that helps both sides by making the Goa'uld closer to falling, then did Earth, the Tok'ra, or the Jaffa do anything whatsoever for each other? Okay, that is a stretch, but I think you are dismissing anything the Tok'ra has done very very easily.

And if we are talking about not sharing technology, then Earth is much worse than the Tok'ra. As SamShipper mentioned, the Tok'ra gave Earth several bits of technology, but Earth has not shared the Asgard technology with the Tok'ra, for instance.

Also, as you said yourself, the Tok'ra do not have a big industrial complex. They can't build ships to Earth!

[Skadi]

A few other things SamShipper forgot in her list of things the Tau'ri and the Tok'ra had done for each other:

Tau'ri for the Tok'ra:

-SG-1 saved Korra


Tok'ra for the Tau'ri:

-Dr Raully smuggled out info about SG-1 being prisoners of Hathor's. She saved Jack O'Neill from being taken as host, while risking her own life, and SG-1 were freed because the Tok'ra got maps out to the SGC.

-The Tok'ra and the Tau'ri together made the weapons that could kill Kull warriors.

-They found Anubis's homeworld because the Tok'ra used their memory recall device on a Kull warrior

-the Tok'ra saved O'Neill by curing the Ancient plague, even if Kanan ran off later

-the Tok'ra got a symbiote for Shau'nac, even if Tanith later killed it and her.

-the Tok'ra made the re'ol compound into a ring

-the Tok'ra made a drug that masked SG-1 from the sensors on a Goa'uld ship

[Hathor_girl]

You guys should also not forget that Delek is one man (symbiote, whatever...) Would you judge all of humanity for what one, say, American senator said?

[Hathor_girl]

No, we do not know if Earth ever gave more hosts. Delek / Selmak said this:


SELMAK: Make no mistake. I am still Selmak. And I was a leader of the Tok'ra, before you had even taken a host.

DELEK: Maybe you've been a leader too long. The Tau'ri are unlike other humans in the galaxy. Their will has not been eroded by thousands of years of slavery. This can be a valuable asset, but it can also make them dangerous. Particularly as hosts.

SELMAK: Jacob Carter has had no more influence on me than any other host.

DELEK: There are those of us who would disagree. You have allowed yourself to get too close to these people Selmak. Your true loyalties are in question.

SELMAK: Do you speak for the entire council?

DELEK: You still have your defenders. Although their numbers are diminishing.


Delek talks about Selmak's host, Jacob. And he doesn't say directly that he doesn't think the Tok'ra should get hosts from Earth.

I would imagine this is the real problem here. If you have an illegal, underground resistance, then your members must be 100% loyal, and you must know with 100% certainty that they will not be compromised because of their previous? allegiances. Their members must be trusted not to run off and give intel to those they previously worked for/was a member of. It is like Hammond says to Teal'c, when he realizes Teal'c has a son and wife on Chulak

(Family)
Hammond: Teal'c, you originally withheld information about your family because you were afraid it would make you vulnerable. Well, it has. I want this to be the last time.

Or go and watch Bloodlines - neither Jack nor Hammond is happy that Teal'c has ties to home. They mention that Teal'c had sworn he had no ties back to Chulak anymore, in order for them to trust him. Earth needed to know his allegiances was to them, solely.

[Laxian of Earth]

hm...

infighting is one thing, to cut a former leader (and elder - who has been with the cause far longer then most others) is not just infighting (it is far worse, because not agreeing with someones ideas and ideals and fighting that is something most of us do if those ideas and ideals do go against our own - but telling someone more or less to "get out - you are not welcome here anymore" is something else entirely!)

as for not giving away asgard-technology:

did the asgard allow that (before they died)? - they didn't ask, yes, but IMHO they just assumed the asgard would not want that (and later on, they just "repaid" the Tok'ra for their own arrogance IMHO - i would have done the same, they did not share, so why should the SGC?)

as for what the Tok'ra did?

well, yes they helped out, but often enough they left us hanging (if Jacob did not act on his own, they would have never known the stage of the replicator vs. goa'uld war because the Tok'ra were playing their secrets game again) or brought us more problems (like the ashrak that followed them through to the first Alpha-Site amongst other things)

as for being 100% loyal:

there is no such thing IMHO (exception fanatics) - otherwise i do not think Jacob was disloyal (!)...as for his previous allegiance:

i would think any Tok'ra-host would help his/her world amongst all others (even more if they had children still living there from before they were a host)

as for "giving hosts":

i was not refering to this talk between selmak and delek - i was refering to this Tok'ra-Elder telling General Hammond that they had to re-think the Tok'ra-Tau'ri-Alliance and wish no more hosts (as for the Alliance: he told Hammond that it was "too costly" for the Tok'ra...*shakes his head*)

as for judging by one mans/symbiotes words:

i am not (!) plane and simple - i am looking at what happened on the show and it was not only Delek that told the SGC that he considered them like he would consider a particularly intelligent monkey (only worth something as a host, can't give you technology because you are not ready for it etc.) and it was Garshaw, Marty, Selmak (and Jacob) amongst a few others (like Delek) that were saying these things (Jacob told them they should not keep the Goa'uld ships (both times they had a mothership), that they were stupid fiddling around with the damaged gliders in season 2 etc.)...so no, i am not judging by ones words but by the words of what a lot of people in leadership-roles said (Delek, Garshaw and Selmak are on the council for example and Marty is one of the Tok'ra the SGC had the most contact with and should know better IMHO...same for Jacob...they handle the SGC like underage children only giving them what they think is best and treating them like they do not know anything!)

as for giving earth technology:

they gave us what exactly? TERs when the reetou were on earth (without telling us how they are made, they just gave us some) and what? - sorry, but i am coming up empty...they could have given us things like Goa'uld-Personal-Shields but no, they didn't (well they gave up an energie-barrier in one of the later seasons - but i don't think they they told the SGC how to make them)...but other then this i really come up empty (even the naquadah-generator was a gift from another race of people!)

as for being treated badly:

i only ever see JACK (and he is only one man as well) treating them badly (!) - no one else in the entire SGC was harassing them (and Jack just does not know when to stop...but that is another matter!)

well, i close it here (will watch that episode that was mentioned earlier now (Affinity i think it was))

greetings LAX

[LtKatia]

I don't really feel like getting involved in this long debate - mostly because it seems that you, Laxian of Earth, would not feel the Tok'ra had done enough even if they had provided an army, technology to bring Earth 400 years into the future, and a fleet of ships, so it seems pointless to argue with you.

Skadi and SamShipper already mentioned more than enough things the Tok'ra have done and given to put them at the very front of our allies, with the Asgard only surpassing them because they essentially handed over their stuff to Earth when they died due to their own stupidity.

Anyway, I will comment on a few things;

1) the Asgard never mentioned not wanting their tech shared with the Tok'ra. Indeed, they were friendly with the Tok'ra (mentioned in the season three episode where Earth is considered for inclusion in the Asgard Protected Planet's treaty). The Asgard are also a good deal more arrogant and condescending of the Tau'ri, than the Tok'ra ever was. Even Thor, though he at least likes the Tau'ri, something not all of the Asgard seems to.

It was also stupid of the Tau'ri not to share the technology with the Tok'ra. They admitted that it might take centuries to understand it all, and since they found themselves in a war, wouldn't it be reasonable to get all the help they could to figure out the tech, so they could fight the Ori?

Also, the Tok'ra shared a lot of tech with the Tau'ri, as listed by others. The Tau'ri (including Jack) never complained about that, so this is NOT an excuse.

2)

well, yes they helped out, but often enough they left us hanging (if Jacob did not act on his own, they would have never known the stage of the replicator vs. goa'uld war because the Tok'ra were playing their secrets game again) or brought us more problems (like the ashrak that followed them through to the first Alpha-Site amongst other things)

as for being 100% loyal:

there is no such thing IMHO (exception fanatics) - otherwise i do not think Jacob was disloyal (!)...as for his previous allegiance:

i would think any Tok'ra-host would help his/her world amongst all others (even more if they had children still living there from before they were a host)

Then the Tok'ra are much more forgiving than the Tau'ri (see Hammond/Teal'c discussion earlier in the thread).

Jacob did go behind the back of the Council, whatever you think of it. Would you have felt it was okay if Sam, for instance, went to the Tok'ra and said "hey, the SGC don't think you should know this, but I feel different. Listen, this is the state of our missions in the Galaxy..."

3)

i was not refering to this talk between selmak and delek - i was refering to this Tok'ra-Elder telling General Hammond that they had to re-think the Tok'ra-Tau'ri-Alliance and wish no more hosts (as for the Alliance: he told Hammond that it was "too costly" for the Tok'ra...*shakes his head*)

I rewatched that scene. Delek only mentions the hosts to Selmak when they are alone, not to Hammond. He also doesn't say the Tok'ra will leave the alliance, only that they will not stay on the alpha site if they have to tell the Tau'ri about everything they do (which no allies would, stupid idea, IMHO - the SGC know about covert operations enough that they would not demand this).
Anyway, the Tok'ra and the Jaffa decided it was better to make their own bases again. They did not say they broke off the alliance.

4)

i am not (!) plane and simple - i am looking at what happened on the show and it was not only Delek that told the SGC that he considered them like he would consider a particularly intelligent monkey (only worth something as a host, can't give you technology because you are not ready for it etc.) and it was Garshaw, Marty, Selmak (and Jacob) amongst a few others (like Delek) that were saying these things (Jacob told them they should not keep the Goa'uld ships (both times they had a mothership), that they were stupid fiddling around with the damaged gliders in season 2 etc.)...so no, i am not judging by ones words but by the words of what a lot of people in leadership-roles said (Delek, Garshaw and Selmak are on the council for example and Marty is one of the Tok'ra the SGC had the most contact with and should know better IMHO...same for Jacob...they handle the SGC like underage children only giving them what they think is best and treating them like they do not know anything!)

Too bad the Tok'ra did not call the Tau'ri monkey-boy or something - that would have been fitting after all the snake and snakehead comments!

Aside from what SamShipper mentioned about Garshaw in this post we never heard anything about her again.
Martouf and Lantash does not say the Tau'ri are primitive, they only warn the Tau'ri that Sokar will be angry for them having captured Apophis. They reasonably enough assume the Tau'ri does not know about the relationship and wars among the Goa'uld, and arrive to warn them. Then, when the Tau'ri seems unwilling to even listen to this, Lantash loses his cool for a moment. Yes, he has a temper, but he is hardly the only person in the Galaxy that gets angry when he feels people are behaving stupidly, and perhaps dooming a whole planet for said stupidity.
Yes, Jacob mentions Earth being unprepared to play with deathgliders and the like, but he does so after Earth has amply proven this is correct. If they had not run to the Tok'ra for help, Jack and Teal'c would have died. Besides, this is Jacob, and if you watch him in Secrets (where he is not a host yet), then he has the exact same mentality and behaviour to Sam. This is Jacob, not Selmak.

5)

as for giving earth technology:

they gave us what exactly? TERs when the reetou were on earth (without telling us how they are made, they just gave us some) and what? - sorry, but i am coming up empty...they could have given us things like Goa'uld-Personal-Shields but no, they didn't (well they gave up an energie-barrier in one of the later seasons - but i don't think they they told the SGC how to make them)...but other then this i really come up empty (even the naquadah-generator was a gift from another race of people!)

As Jacob says at the end of the episode, the Tok'ra will come back with more TERs and explain about them. The Tok'ra did explain about how to make the forceshields. Sam says they got the technology from the Tok'ra, not the shields themselves. Aside from that, there is the lists by Skadi and SamShipper, which contains other tech than what you list. The Tok'ra also helped fic a teltac for Earth.

[Sparky She-Demon]

Agree with all of that Lt. Katia!

[Skadi]

I also agree with you, LtKatia