Daniel Jackson Discussion and Appreciation

[Tucker Case]

Although someone could argue that it is precisely that they don't create these opportunities that's a big problem.

That's pretty much what I meant: Not so much the lack of opportunity, period, but the lack of opportunity being given.

It's a directional change we've had to live with; I hope things will shift a bit next season - and things do look promising - but, at the same time, I am grateful Daniel has been better incorporated into the story-as-is.

See, I'm not so sure I like that. Used very spariingly, yes. I loved

Spoiler:

Danny's World

. But, I don't want him to become this superhuman, or to have that be the thing that makes him unique from the military mindset.

It's that balance thing again, and there are concerns to be had about more than just this setting Daniel apart.

I was going to post something last night, in response to someone else's lament about Daniel's lost innocence, about how, if you see Daniel as the Luke Skywalker of the show, then he's gone from being the Tatooine farmboy of the first 'Star Wars' movie to being more the young Jedi of the third. Or, that he's become less the Frodo of the piece and more a burgeoning Gandalf.

I abandoned both because, well, I was too tired to be coherent, and because neither analogy was quite exact enough for my liking; but I still think the fact that my thoughts drifted there at all could set off alarm bells for anyone who's worried that the show is drifting more into the realm of fantasy, and maybe should stand as a reminder that they need to be very, very careful about this.

It still hinges on Daniel's human-ness/humanity - draws on that and has its roots there - and I don't ever want to see that part of it lost. If they do this right, it could be extraordinary. Do it wrong, and we're in trouble.

TC

[Seshat]

...but I still think the fact that my thoughts drifted there at all could set off alarm bells for anyone who's worried that the show is drifting more into the realm of fantasy, and maybe should stand as a reminder that they need to be very, very careful about this.
TC

You've touched on the very point that has me most anxious about the show's future. I love the scifi theme in almost its permutations, absurd or not, but I, too, get nervous when the writers mix fantasy elements into the scifi pot. Two very distinct realms that I feel do not marry well.

I suspect the writers must be having a hard time figuring out where to go from here. It's as if they've had every major character save the galaxy at least once, singly, in pairs, as a team, and some several times over. If you create an all-powerful Danny (or Sam or anybody else) and have them save the world time and again, is there any sense of jeopardy left for the character? Do we really care that Danny dies if we know he'll just pop back up again and save the day? How many times can the writers come up with grander and more implausible explanations before they have to resort to fantasy to explain things?

[Captain-Peregrine]

Any type of bantering between Jack and Daniel is an absolute classic! Those two bounce off one another so fast and so well!

That is one of my favorite parts about the show is the way all the characters act and react to each other. Especially with Jack and Daniel

[Dana_Jeanne]

Some really excellent, excellent posts here!

As I was reading through them, something struck me. Someone mentioned "Enemy Mine" where both Jack and Hammond immedietely took what Daniel wanted and ran with it/backed him up, etc. There were a couple more examples given also.

To me, this is showing that they've FINALLY decided to trust Daniel's word/experience/etc.

In TBFTGOG--- There isn't a jaffa ANYWHERE, they've searched the entire area and didn't find anybody, including Daniel, yet suddenly Daniel suddenly shows up with a staff blast wound. And nobody believes him. I thought that was pretty stupid the first time I saw it, but... it's a great arc so I just ignore it.

Maternal Instinct, when he asks everyone to lower thier weapons nobody does it until BRATAC does.

What I'm seeing now that Daniel has descended is that Jack and Teal'c have realised Daniel is usually right and are acting accordingly. I'm guessing that if TBFTGOG, MI, um, what's the one in the padded room? if those had all happened in S7 or S8, the outcome of each would have been very different.

Both Teal'c and Jack remember Daniel visiting them while he was ascended. I wonder if THAT has anything to do with thier new trust in him?

Dana Jeanne

[Frostfox]

[QUOTE=Dana_Jeanne]Some really excellent, excellent posts here!
[QUOTE]

Indeed.

Both Teal'c and Jack remember Daniel visiting them while he was ascended. I wonder if THAT has anything to do with their new trust in him?

I'm sure that's part of it, and perhaps they all had an epithany in the year they were apart, about the nature and depth of their friendship which makes trusting Daniel easier?

I always thought it was sad that he didn't visit Sam, or perhaps she didn't need him? I've only seen Season 6 once (I do have it on DVD, must get round to watching it) so I can't remember her being in great peril?

Foxy

[Seshat]

I always thought it was sad that he didn't visit Sam, or perhaps she didn't need him? I've only seen Season 6 once (I do have it on DVD, must get round to watching it) so I can't remember her being in great peril?

Foxy

Okay, I VAGUELY remember reading somewhere that scenes HAD actually been shot between Ascended Daniel and Sam for Full Circle (when they were trying to find the eye of Ra), but that during the editing process it was decided that the two actors were coming off a little too flip for the tone of the ep, so the scenes were cut. This resulted in no Ascended Daniel/Sam interaction one-on-one for the viewers. Does anyone else remember this?

[Tucker Case]

You've touched on the very point that has me most anxious about the show's future. I love the scifi theme in almost its permutations, absurd or not, but I, too, get nervous when the writers mix fantasy elements into the scifi pot. Two very distinct realms that I feel do not marry well.

The mixed marriage of scifi and fantasy, in the right hands, with the right premise, can end up giving you the best of both worlds, but it's rare enough that I don't instinctively trust the notion at the outset, and I don't know how well it can be sustained in episodic television.

You'd think it shouldn't be that big of a leap from mixing scifi and mythology, but it feels like it is.

And yet, I haven't been unhappy with the dabbling they've done so far, and I hate to complain about anyone attempting anything I might classify as audacious. I'm choosing not to borrow trouble for myself just yet. I don't know why. This Sister Mary Sunshine thing I've got going at the moment is not my usual M.O. I should probably enjoy it while it lasts.

It's as if they've had every major character save the galaxy at least once, singly, in pairs, as a team, and some several times over. If you create an all-powerful Danny (or Sam or anybody else) and have them save the world time and again, is there any sense of jeopardy left for the character? Do we really care that Danny dies if we know he'll just pop back up again and save the day?

Part of the problem isn't so much that the miraculous becomes routine, it's that the writers have the characters treating it like it is. My being "certain" that Daniel will pop back up again wouldn't be a problem, I wouldn't be that certain if

Spoiler:

the writers wouldn't drive a sword through his heart and blow the ship he lies dying in to smithereens around him only to have Jack blithely assert that he'll come "waltzing through that door any minute." I could very well worry that he won't and care a great deal about it if I weren't being instructed not to by the other characters.

But, even without the writing compounding the problem that way, with Carter capable (as they're so fond of reminding us) of blowing up a sun

Spoiler:

and getting right on that walking-on-water problem

and Daniel having already been mistaken for a god by one character, it does get harder and harder to come up with anything that can surprise and challenge these characters. "Magic" begins to look very tempting.

TC

[Dani347]

Part of the problem isn't so much that the miraculous becomes routine, it's that the writers have the characters treating it like it is. My being "certain" that Daniel will pop back up again wouldn't be a problem, I wouldn't be that certain if

Spoiler:

the writers wouldn't drive a sword through his heart and blow the ship he lies dying in to smithereens around him only to have Jack blithely assert that he'll come "waltzing through that door any minute." I could very well worry that he won't and care a great deal about it if I weren't being instructed not to by the other characters.

TC

Yes, this is another problem. Death or the possibility of death should never become routine for the characters. Think if a firefighter's friends went all ho-hum everytime he/she survived a fire, just because they survived before. We may know (barring casting changes and actors leaving) that a character will come back, but no matter how many get out of jail free cards a character uses, the others don't know if this time it's for keeps.

Spoiler:

I didn't mind Jack asserting that Daniel would come back. When he repeated "any second now," or words to that effect, it was like he was willing Daniel to appear. What I did object to was when he did come back, the casual attitude. I don't care how aure you are. When someone was on a ship that got destroyed, you can have all the confidence in the world in their resurrecting powers, but there should still be some relief that your confidence has been confirmed. And, I hate that that moment was either treated as no big deal, or worse, was meant to be humorous. It was a big let down from Reckoning

Another problem is, no matter that Daniel comes back, he dies. He suffers each time, and the others should have some idea that whatever he's going through isn't tulips and daisies, so their reaction shouldn't be, "so you're back. Yawn."

[Tucker Case]

Death or the possibility of death should never become routine for the characters. Think if a firefighter's friends went all ho-hum everytime he/she survived a fire, just because they survived before. We may know (barring casting changes and actors leaving) that a character will come back, but no matter how many get out of jail free cards a character uses, the others don't know if this time it's for keeps.

They seem to have it all backwards, really.

To give credit where it’s due, they are capable of it, the appropriate emotion thing. The concern for Daniel was there in ‘Icon,’ for Teal’c in ‘Avatar,’ for Daniel again in ‘Prometheus Unbound’

Spoiler:

– ’Prometheus Unbound’, for heaven’s sake, an episode that was played almost entirely for laughs, and Hammond and his crew still managed set aside a second or two of genuine worry for Daniel’s plight and greet his safe recovery with that relieved smile on Reynolds’ face and Hammond’s “Are you alright, son?” (the concern, the relief, the gratitude, the unabashed affection, it was all there in his voice and his eyes, it was perfect).

You’d almost get the impression, watching these people, that even if Daniel does have a freshly laminated Get Out Of Death Free card and never leaves home without it, it is still preferable that he not get killed.

A full complement of recognisable human emotions come out in force over what is, for them, the “small stuff;” why ‘Zero Hour’ even made time for

Spoiler:

Reynolds’ impassioned speech about Jack never giving up on SG-1, the assembly of the ready and willing in the gateroom, and a whole little scene built towards Jack’s doleful gaze at Teal’c and Daniel’s lockers, when nothing bad had actually happened to the team at all.

But there’s this weird inverse proportion thing going on at the SGC, where the greater the crisis (and the bigger the miracle that delivers them from it) the smaller the reaction to it.

See? Backwards.

Again, though, this is where I'm hoping Mitchell can help out; he, perhaps, will not be quite so inured to the extraordinary. And I think even Vala, in her lunatic way, could be a grounding influence on Daniel:

Spoiler:

All the secrets of the universe might be there for the unlocking in his brain and he'll probably still never know if he's coming or going with this woman; even those friends-in-high-places he has won't be able to help him figure her out.

TC

[Dani347]

I find that they act more human during the first half of the season than they do in the second half. Contrast Icon and Threads.

Spoiler:

In Icon, after Daniel went back to the planet, he had no more scenes with Jack -face to face. There was no reunion scene, and yet I don't feel cheated. We had Jack's obvious concern. We had him obviously reacting when he heard Daniel's voice. But, in Threads, we get I suppose what was meant to be a humorous moment and some cheap thrills. But, where was the emotion? Jack didn't go overboard in Icon when he exclaimed "Sweet!" and asked if Daniel was coming home, so I can't imagine that doing more than casually tossing Daniel a flag would have been a chore for him.

And, I love Prometheus Unbound

Spoiler:

I liked Vala, but it wasn't even that part of the episode (which was the bulk of the show) but the mutual respect and care of Daniel and Hammond. In fact there were many times during the last episodes when I could have wiahed for a spin off consisting of Daniel and Hammond.

[Captain-Peregrine]

Some really excellent, excellent posts here!

As I was reading through them, something struck me. Someone mentioned "Enemy Mine" where both Jack and Hammond immedietely took what Daniel wanted and ran with it/backed him up, etc. There were a couple more examples given also.

To me, this is showing that they've FINALLY decided to trust Daniel's word/experience/etc.

In TBFTGOG--- There isn't a jaffa ANYWHERE, they've searched the entire area and didn't find anybody, including Daniel, yet suddenly Daniel suddenly shows up with a staff blast wound. And nobody believes him. I thought that was pretty stupid the first time I saw it, but... it's a great arc so I just ignore it.

Maternal Instinct, when he asks everyone to lower thier weapons nobody does it until BRATAC does.

What I'm seeing now that Daniel has descended is that Jack and Teal'c have realised Daniel is usually right and are acting accordingly. I'm guessing that if TBFTGOG, MI, um, what's the one in the padded room? if those had all happened in S7 or S8, the outcome of each would have been very different.

Both Teal'c and Jack remember Daniel visiting them while he was ascended. I wonder if THAT has anything to do with thier new trust in him?

Dana Jeanne

Yes, it finally feels as if they are beginning to trust poor Daniel. Also, in Evolutions they actually let him run off to find that fountain of youth thing, which I don't think they would have let him do any earlier than that. Especially not without Jack. I think he--Jack--is finally beginning to realize that Daniel is capable of taking care of himself without being shot...most of the time. Heck, he's usually the one to survive when everyone else gets killed...well, sometimes.

Oh, and the episode with the padded room: Legacy. One of my favorites.

[Seshat]

Heck, he's usually the one to survive when everyone else gets killed...well, sometimes.

Well, that's because he carries one of these:

Thank you again Tucker for the idea.

And I agree with Tucker's comments about the "weird inverse proportion thing going on at the SGC, where the greater the crisis (and the bigger the miracle that delivers them from it) the smaller the reaction to it". But I think that's due to Jack's leadership style as written this season. IMO Jack has been setting the emotional tone in the episodes that focus on his character or on team dynamic storylines. Since Jack's first reaction to any emergency is usually some flip remark, that's usually the direction the reactions that follow take.

[Tucker Case]

Well, that's because he carries one of these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...hFreeCard3.jpg

[i]Thank you again Tucker for the idea.

You're welcome. I only wish I could give credit to the first person who ever used the term "get out of death free card" (in relation to Daniel), or even the forum I first saw it on.

IMO Jack has been setting the emotional tone in the episodes that focus on his character or on team dynamic storylines. Since Jack's first reaction to any emergency is usually some flip remark, that's usually the direction the reactions that follow take.

I think you're right, and it makes me a bit sad and uneasy, because I don't want that to be the prevailing emotional direction on the show. I think Daniel can still be as awestruck as ever, Sam can as perplexed (and thus determined) as ever and Teal'c's eyebrow can still tell a thousand and one tales, and I'd rather the show follow their lead. And, while I hardly expect Mitchell to be bowled over by every little thing, he's probably still capable of a moment or two of, "What have I gotten myself into?", and I'll take that over Jack's flippancy any day.

Which means, emotionally, I'm showing Jack the door, since I don't see them writing him any differently any time soon, and that's disheartening to realise.

There's a price for everything, I guess.

TC

[Captain-Peregrine]

Well, that's because he carries one of these:

Thank you again Tucker for the idea.

And I agree with Tucker's comments about the "weird inverse proportion thing going on at the SGC, where the greater the crisis (and the bigger the miracle that delivers them from it) the smaller the reaction to it". But I think that's due to Jack's leadership style as written this season. IMO Jack has been setting the emotional tone in the episodes that focus on his character or on team dynamic storylines. Since Jack's first reaction to any emergency is usually some flip remark, that's usually the direction the reactions that follow take.

That card must have unlimited use. lol

Great idea!

[Captain-Peregrine]

And it looks like it leaked from Daniel/MS Thunk Thread--I saw it mentioned there, too.