Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[majorsal]

(feels heart sinking) I just read the review posted by Uber under the News section. The only thing I've been looking forward to, is tomorrow night, 8 o'clock. Now, I'm feeling nothing but trepidation. I can't lose Sam too!

Sorry, will try and remain positive. It's only one review and reviewers are notoriuosly WRONG at least 50 % of the time.

Thanks for posting it Uber. Guess we need to hear all sides. Good post bink.

Take care everyone.

can you give a link please?


sally

[jckfan55]

spoilers for s7/s8

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and am i the only person that thinks fragile balance was damaging to jack's character? i know that was supposed to be a light and airy ep, but i felt the end result made jack look like an uncaring jerk and pedophile by the end. i know, harsh words, but i felt just as irked about jack at the end of fragile balance as i did about sam at the end of chimera. (teal'c just got screwed over by the end of affinity)

wow, and i'm 'not' in a bad mood.

sally

No, you are not the only one. I hated "mini-jack." Nothing against the young actor, but as written, he was a caricature. It would have been so much better to address the clone issue with some seriousness, while recognizing some humorous elements (I did like how he got zits). (IMHO, Stargate is best when having humorous elements, not going for "comic" episodes.) It could have been a great Jack episode if they had really dealt with the consequences of the dying clone. (And I wished they had not been able to save him. Now there is this weird jack clone out there somewhere dating 16 ? year olds. I try to forget.)
And let's not get into how Sam got dissed at the briefing.

[majorsal]

Most of you have weighed in on this ... and I'm with Astrog. Because TPTB focused on Jack/RDA's transition to General and Sam's personal life, the collateral damage was the loss of Sam's leadership potential and episodes showing her in command off-world and at the SGC. It was not only a blow to the character but also a blow to the portrayal of a strong female role model. God knows, we certainly need more, not less, of these on television and in the movies.

and you know what? it didn't have to go down that way. they didn't balance sam's storyline(s) in season 8. her personal life didn't take up 'that' much time/eps, but when you compare it to the fact that sam's command of sg1 was barely explored... that's where it feels sam's personal life overwhelmed her character.

one of the producers (brad or rob) said in their latest interview (on gateworld) that they tried to steer most of their stories around the base/earth, because of trying to include jack as much as possible. i'm sure in hindsight they realize that was a mistake, but i can't believe that NO ONE would question it. (just like i can't believe no writer/producer would question pete being a jerk in chimera, and not finding it odd that sam would accept it. yes, my friends, i'm on one of my anti-chimera fixes again )

anyways, what's so hard about emphasizing BOTH of the big things going on in sam's life in season 8? in all fairness, it's not like they ignored sam's leadership, but it had all the depth of a puddle. i'm not a professional writer, but i love using my imagination on how i think things could go. and *i* could have written sam struggling with her personal life (her mini mid-life crisis) WHILE her struggling to make sg1 her own. heck, all they really had to do was make another 'death knell' type ep, but this time sg1 (and even another sg team) are with her and we see SAM commanding them and keeping them alive. i can't think of a better chance for the writers to show the viewers -and sam to show her co-workers- what she's made of. what i don't understand is why they didn't do anything with it. and i mean 'really' do something with it, not dabbing a bit of paint on it.

i think all this reflection is coming from reading reviews for stargate/atlantis/bsg. almost every interview highlights ben and claudia infusing stargate, and bsg being the best thing since breathing. and this makes me sad and mad for stargate at the same time. sad that stargate continues to get slighted, and mad that it should have never come to this. sloppy writing for 'years' has really hurt this show, and i think makes a lot of long time fans feel hesitant in their devotion.


sally

[jckfan55]

i think all this reflection is coming from reading reviews for stargate/atlantis/bsg. almost every interview highlights ben and claudia infusing stargate, and bsg being the best thing since breathing. and this makes me sad and mad for stargate at the same time. sad that stargate continues to get slighted, and mad that it should have never come to this. sloppy writing for 'years' has really hurt this show, and i think makes a lot of long time fans feel hesitant in their devotion.

sally

Yes. Cast additions aren't the panacea here. The cast isn't the problem. Sheesh, AT has been elevating the material for years. I found last year very spotty in quality. And not just in the Sam episodes. Icon was a Daniel episode, but a pretty blah one. I can't say it required much on MS' part. Not that he needs a "Daniel goes crackers" episode but something more interesting. At least Sam got to be the "hand signal person in charge" in that ep.

[Agent_Dark]

I'l try to get it to you guys tonight, AD, unless someone finds it before me! It's nominated for an award this year, though. If you have the link to that site, you should be able to find it.

Note: Pete (or ) is not shown in the best light. In fact, he acts like a moe.

Hmmm as long as doesn't villafy Pete just so Sam and Jack can get togethor. That turns me off a story quicker than anything...

[majorsal]

As much as I liked parts of the whole 'ship' issue, I have to agree knowing what I know now... I would have rather they dropped the entire issue or not brought it up at all. I didn't mind the references up until D&C, it was actually quite fun to watch. A little flirting, smiles, joking... but they were all still a big happy family. I think I started to sour on the entire situation when it became so angsty and Sam/Jack stopped having that easy casual relationship.

you know how i said i would have had sam and jack IN a relay for years if i were one of the writers? it's because i know how it would/could have come off.

i love using Jag as the good/bad example of writing ship. harm and mac were the leads, but we had bud/harriet as the more poignant subplot ship. while bud and harriet lived their lives, harm and mac were stagnate. in the years this show was on, we saw bud and harriet meet, have their first date, fall in love, marry, have a child, miscarry a child, have another child, bud lose a leg... in other words, live a life like everyone else. and what did harm and mac do?... float around in limbo, because the writers were afraid of 'really' changing them. yes, both had 'others' here and there, but neither really progressed in their lives.

if i'd had been the showrunner, i would have NOT done the cliche' thing (stretching the UST to mammoth and ridiculous proportions). and i can't think of one, single long-time UST situation where the characters didn't suffer for it. i would have done away with it and let the character get on with their lives. and NOT have it overwhelm the characters or the show. it didn't with bud and harriet.

i'm sorry if this is too much ship talk for some here, but i'm just trying to show that with dedicated and thoughtful writing, this ship issue wouldn't have been an issue. and sam wouldn't have taken a beating.


sally

[binkpmmc]

and you know what? it didn't have to go down that way. they didn't balance sam's storyline(s) in season 8. her personal life didn't take up 'that' much time/eps, but when you compare it to the fact that sam's command of sg1 was barely explored... that's where it feels sam's personal life overwhelmed her character.

one of the producers (brad or rob) said in their latest interview (on gateworld) that they tried to steer most of their stories around the base/earth, because of trying to include jack as much as possible. i'm sure in hindsight they realize that was a mistake, but i can't believe that NO ONE would question it. (just like i can't believe no writer/producer would question pete being a jerk in chimera, and not finding it odd that sam would accept it. yes, my friends, i'm on one of my anti-chimera fixes again )

anyways, what's so hard about emphasizing BOTH of the big things going on in sam's life in season 8? in all fairness, it's not like they ignored sam's leadership, but it had all the depth of a puddle. i'm not a professional writer, but i love using my imagination on how i think things could go. and *i* could have written sam struggling with her personal life (her mini mid-life crisis) WHILE her struggling to make sg1 her own. heck, all they really had to do was make another 'death knell' type ep, but this time sg1 (and even another sg team) are with her and we see SAM commanding them and keeping them alive. i can't think of a better chance for the writers to show the viewers -and sam to show her co-workers- what she's made of. what i don't understand is why they didn't do anything with it. and i mean 'really' do something with it, not dabbing a bit of paint on it.

i think all this reflection is coming from reading reviews for stargate/atlantis/bsg. almost every interview highlights ben and claudia infusing stargate, and bsg being the best thing since breathing. and this makes me sad and mad for stargate at the same time. sad that stargate continues to get slighted, and mad that it should have never come to this. sloppy writing for 'years' has really hurt this show, and i think makes a lot of long time fans feel hesitant in their devotion.


sally

Very nice post, Sally - I can't rep you at this time but I loved the "depth of a puddle" comment and if you don't mind I think I'll borrow it. I would love to see that put into a question to mallozzi asking why they didn't explore Carter as leader and gave her leadership arc the "depth of a puddle".

[Skydiver]

Hmmm as long as doesn't villafy Pete just so Sam and Jack can get togethor. That turns me off a story quicker than anything...

same here. i'm as tired of 'stalker pete' fic as i am the one, so far, cameron's a cad' ideal

there are characters that i don't like, but i won't villify them just for the heck of it

[majorsal]

Originally Posted by Agent_Dark
And would of had more Sam!Whumping

Woohoo!!!! Me too!

you know what one episode i wish would have been sam's?..... abyss. and just the way it was done - not watered down because sam is a girl.

i asked joe once if abyss would have been done the same way if it had been sam, and joe said no. and that bothered me a bit, because i couldn't understand why the only 'violence' that is shown against women is rape. yes, abyss was hard to watch (only watched it once because of my rda love affair), but i could have handled it better with it being sam going through it. and with how *wonderful* an actress amanda is... gawd, i can just imagine the scenes with her.


sally

[majorsal]

Sorry I haven't had much to add to your discussions of late. I have read them all, and as usual, they are very insightful and usually dead on. I guess right now I'm feeling kinda left out. Sort a feel like I'm in a club, but not really.

Ignore me...bad day.

(((lida)))

you're in this club (whether you want to be or not!).


sally

[majorsal]

I just finished reading a very dark Sam fic that I'd really recommend to anyone who enjoys seeing a very different side of Sam. It's called Cauterized People by ALC Punk. A bit of warning though: It's a very dark, sexual, S/J shippy (though not in a sweet or loveable kind of way) fic. It also contains issues regarding rape, abortion and torture, as well as shows a tough, in your face Sam we don't normally get to see. Believe me, you'll have to read it to understand what I'm talking about.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2247988/2/

i read it a bit back, and i LOVED it!!! a totally different feel, and very edgy. super great fic!

sally

[sg-1fanintn]

Gee, people! Spend a day away from the computer.....and find yourself REALLY behind! Good for you! But I've just read all the posts from today, and you've had some really interesting discussions here.

First of all, weighing in on Majorsal's question of what we would have done with the series and with Sam had we had the opportunity (instead of leaving it to the boys in Vancouver).

Sally.....here comes another shippy scenario!

let's play a game. let's pretend that we've been writing stargate since the beginning. how would 'we' have written sam in all these years?

Ooh, what a fun idea! I wouldn't change anything seasons 1-3, except refocus that horrible ep, A Hundred Days. I would have focused more on the sleepless nights and extra hours Sam put in to get Jack back, and less on the woman on the planet (I know her name. I just don't like to write it!). And I agree with Majorsal. I would have Sam able to explore her memories/powers related to Jolinar more.

(WARNING: SHIPPY PARAGRAPH AHEAD!!!!!)
Once Divide & Conquer passed, I wouldn't have "kept it in the room." I would have had them continue to acknowledge their feelings for each other, while also trying to abide by the regs. After losing Daniel at the end of S5, I would have had them realize that life was too short to keep denying themselves the happiness they could bring each other. But I would have them pursue it honorably and through official channels, asking for an exception from higher up…..or having Jack become a civilian leader, removing one of the barriers to their relationship. After Prometheus in S6, I would have President Hayes grant them an exception (How many times do you have to save the world to get someone to cut you a little slack?), as long as it did not have a negative impact on the team. I recently read a fic where Hayes and Hammond agreed that was acceptable, and it worked for me.o

Now that UST is RST, let's concentrate on the sci-fi! The RST just makes stories like Metamorphosis more poignant. I would have Daniel make his return just before Sam & Jack's wedding, at the beginning of S7. But I don't think they'd have children--I really don't--at least, not at first, because of the intensity of the threat of the Goa'uld.
(END OF WARNING: END (I THINK) OF SHIPPY MATERIAL)

Now, we can revise Grace.....because it can be about Sam fighting through her injuries and using her smarts to get out of a bad situation, not about searching her soul. Now, we can avoid Chimera entirely!!! Hurrah! Now, Death Knell and Lost City take on additional meaning. And now, when RDA wants to cut back, it'll be a lot easier to keep him alive in the stories, because Sam can refer to him without angst. Safe in the knowledge that her personal life is on track, she can turn her attention totally to her career. We don't have that whole two-year story arc leading to Threads, because Sam already knows where she's going, and who will accompany her. That would rid us of a lot of the criticism of Sam that arose during that story arc. And the shippers wouldn't be whining, because we would have already had our resolution.

RDA's departure could then be part of a new story arc launching the fight against a new enemy. Someone posted the idea the other day that S9 starts with Jack getting kidnapped while on a mission for Homeworld Security, and then, the season is spent trying to find him (a la Search for Spock). I know it's been done, but it sure would fuel a lot of tense, interesting episodes with cliffhangers where the team battles a new enemy while trying to get one of their own back. I bet I could get to the Ori without going through Arthurian legend too!!!! And Sam is compelled and driven to lead by the greatest motivator of all.....love.

I think this progression would preserve Sam's character much better than the route TPTB have taken. They have damaged her character, and with some fans, she'll never recover. Now, I personally think those people are out of their minds not to appreciate Sam, but my mother always told me it takes all kinds to make a word.

Oh, gee.....this is pretty shippy. Sorry to my fellow Samandans who aren't J/S Shippers. But I think a lot of the damage Sam’s character has suffered among fans is due to the poor way in which TPTB have handled the J/S ship. And I also think the ship is an integral part of the show. But that's me. Several people have presented other interesting ideas, and as usual, I've enjoyed reading them!

Something else I couldn't resist that was posted earlier today:

When all else fails....

That's why God created COPY and PASTE....

ÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜÜ

Wow...I really am a pain in the mikta, aren't I?

But maybe only a little pain in the mikta. Which reminds me, here's the lower case u with the umlaut...

Mac: 159 Alt: 129

üüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüüü

Why would we need the little "ü"? You're the only Über we know, and you're definitely a proper noun!

Back to weigh in on more of the day's discussions soon!

[Strix varia]

you know how i said i would have had sam and jack IN a relay for years if i were one of the writers? it's because i know how it would/could have come off.

i love using Jag as the good/bad example of writing ship. harm and mac were the leads, but we had bud/harriet as the more poignant subplot ship. while bud and harriet lived their lives, harm and mac were stagnate. in the years this show was on, we saw bud and harriet meet, have their first date, fall in love, marry, have a child, miscarry a child, have another child, bud lose a leg... in other words, live a life like everyone else. and what did harm and mac do?... float around in limbo, because the writers were afraid of 'really' changing them. yes, both had 'others' here and there, but neither really progressed in their lives.

if i'd had been the showrunner, i would have NOT done the cliche' thing (stretching the UST to mammoth and ridiculous proportions). and i can't think of one, single long-time UST situation where the characters didn't suffer for it. i would have done away with it and let the character get on with their lives. and NOT have it overwhelm the characters or the show. it didn't with bud and harriet.

i'm sorry if this is too much ship talk for some here, but i'm just trying to show that with dedicated and thoughtful writing, this ship issue wouldn't have been an issue. and sam wouldn't have taken a beating.


sally

Great post, Sally. I wish I could rep you...

[Strix varia]

you know what one episode i wish would have been sam's?..... abyss. and just the way it was done - not watered down because sam is a girl.

Yeah, I thought that while I was watching it. Amanda would have done an awesome job with it.

[ChevronSeven]

you know how i said i would have had sam and jack IN a relay for years if i were one of the writers? it's because i know how it would/could have come off.

i love using Jag as the good/bad example of writing ship. harm and mac were the leads, but we had bud/harriet as the more poignant subplot ship. while bud and harriet lived their lives, harm and mac were stagnate. in the years this show was on, we saw bud and harriet meet, have their first date, fall in love, marry, have a child, miscarry a child, have another child, bud lose a leg... in other words, live a life like everyone else. and what did harm and mac do?... float around in limbo, because the writers were afraid of 'really' changing them. yes, both had 'others' here and there, but neither really progressed in their lives.

if i'd had been the showrunner, i would have NOT done the cliche' thing (stretching the UST to mammoth and ridiculous proportions). and i can't think of one, single long-time UST situation where the characters didn't suffer for it. i would have done away with it and let the character get on with their lives. and NOT have it overwhelm the characters or the show. it didn't with bud and harriet.

i'm sorry if this is too much ship talk for some here, but i'm just trying to show that with dedicated and thoughtful writing, this ship issue wouldn't have been an issue. and sam wouldn't have taken a beating.


sally

That is such an excellent explanation, Sally! I know why the UST is placed there, but there comes a point where too much spoils it - where viewers are tired of the waiting (or viewers are tired to watch any kind of UST between two characters). And the biggest excuse I've read from some writers is that they don't know how to write a conclusion. It *can* be done, they just don't want to. Neither character - the woman in particular - can be made to look like the lovesick fool or be reduced to something less than they are when proper writing is there.