Sam Carter/Amanda Tapping Discussion/Appreciation

[ShimmeringStar]

Oh, holy crap. This forum... Just when I thought that everything was fixed... Crap, crap. Where is everyone?

I'm confused. I think I need a map... and some sort of GPS device.

*giggles* I know it's not funny the way the posts are popping up.... but it is...

I keep seeing posts moving forward (or repeating themselves) as we get closer to the real time of when they were timestamped earlier today.... (Hmmmmm.... if we're still stuck in the loop I guess we still have time to change the timeline to make things *bet-ter*? )

Would a GPS help?

I see we still have to catch up in time for spaz' 9:24 pm & 1speed's 10:16 pm posts to get inserted in their proper place in time....

[the dancer of spaz]

Maybe he's just

Spoiler:

desperate by the situation. And I really wonder what are these mixed feelings Sam has. Are they due to the situation with the Ori or related to the SG1 team ? Any ideas ?

I'm thinking

Spoiler:

AND hoping that the mixed feelings have to do with the fact that she's not sure that the weapon's gonna work. If she has any mixed feelings related to the newly-formed SG1 team, I think we can expect some tension.

I'm (again) hoping it's not the latter, because then it'll look like Sam's bringing perhaps unnecessary tension to an otherwise "happy go lucky" team. No good.

[Strix varia]

OK, I'll put my own two sense in again.

Spoiler:

I'm not really seeing the Beach Head info the same way as some others. I don't understand how Sam's new weapon failing to work on the Ori is a failure for her character. How does a plan not working make a person an utter failure?

Well, to my cynical, snarky, and aching mind:

Spoiler:

Sam creates a weapon that defeats the Ori = success
Sam creates a weapon that makes matters much worse = failure

Does that make Sam, as a person, a failure? No. But if it keeps happening, it will eventually drag her down to the same level as Felger, who was obvious very brilliant, but couldn't come up with any plans that actually "succeeded."

Ah fear not, all. I'm off to a conference tomorrow, so you won't have to put up with my *****y self for several days. Unless, of course, I can figure out how to make my laptop connect with the internet in my hotel room. But it hasn't happened yet, so I think you'll be free of my *****iness until Wednesday. And I just have to keep typing variations of *****, because it amuses me no end that the forum actually sensors it. And just what is wrong with referring to female dogs? What a *****!

[astrogeologist]

Wonderful discussions! And I agree with so much of what has been posted - you folks are so great with the written word - and the humor!

As for the Beach Head spoilers, I immediately felt as Strix and Kat and others felt... I like the optimism shown by some other posters here, but after so many decades of viewing female roles on TV and in movies... I am definitely sad and disappointed that Sam Carter isn't being portrayed with the same heroic fervor as Cameron Mitchell.

I want Sam to show her humanity, to show she has weaknesses to accept them and to overcome them. I don't want tension within the team. I want friendship. That's why I'd really like to see Sam making a hard choice against the wills of one of the guys (I'm thinking of Daniel here, he's the most stubborn of all of them ) because she knows it's the best for them even if she's going to jeopardize their friendship.

I for sure don't want Sam to show weakness for the sake of been weak because she's the woman. If that's how TPTB think of character development for Sam, I'd rather have SuperSam. We have SuperDaniel who speaks 23 or more languages, understands every alien writing without any book or reference to translate them, SuperTeal'c who knows everything about Goa'uld technology and culture, SuperJack who never misses a target and is a formidable team leader, why not SuperSam ?

The lead heros on a scifi show... are just that - heros... and the longer the show lasts, the more they become SuperHeros. Apparently, the folks on Stargate are attempting to go against that grain with the character of Sam Carter... attempting to show her as fallible... and human... and prone to screwing up. Unfortunately, they have not shown Daniel, Teal'c or Jack screwing up in similar or commeasurate manners or events.... which magnifies Sam's screw-ups. Personally, I liked having a strong female character alongside the male heroes... AT portrayed Sam Carter with such a wonderful warmth and compassion that I didn't see Carter as the infallible superhero... I saw SC as one of the brilliant and competent women who can shine when allowed to. I am terribly sad to see the devolvement of that wonderful strength and competence.

Now as to those who would say that Carter is *too* perfect - There are many times throughout the series where Carter was shown to have faults and to *not* have the miracle answer for the immediate problem at hand. In A Matter of Time, she was shown to be too focussed on science and not focussed enough on compassion when she requested that they keep the wormhole established to watch the effects of the black hole; In Solitudes she is *not* able to figure out how to save O'Neill and herself; in Red Sky, she jeopardizes the entire population of another planet; in 48 Hours, it's her dialing program that ignores the warnings from the 'Gate and then she doesn't know how to save Teal'c and Jack insults her (and it's written so that she deserves it) with that 'pulling ideas out of your butt' line'; in Gemini she allows RC access to the plans for the Ancient weapon - and then intends to take RC back to Earth when Fifth's fleet approaches; when they crash the Goa'uld mothership into the ocean, it's Jonas that's the superhero and saves everyone while Sam can't pull the miracle out of her hat; in Avenger 2.0, Carter and Felger are going to get slaughtered by Jaffa until Jack shows up and saves the day - Carter doesn't save the day; in Death Knell, Carter evades the Supersoldier for an unspecified length of time, but ultimately fails and is facing her immiment death - until Teal'c and Jack come to her rescue; in Endgame, she is captured easily by the bad guys; in Desperate Measures, Carter does not escape on her own- and is again facing imminent death while helpless until Jack swoops in to save her (contrast that with Abyss where all they can do for Jack is to get the power to go out, but then they actually say that 'Jack has to save himself!'); in Metamorphosis, Carter gets soggy - and has no hand in 'saving the day' or taking down Niirti; in First Commandment, Carter can't pull the trigger on Jonas Hanson and ends up as his prisoner - and Jack saves the day at the end of the episode; in Forsaken, Carter fixes the bad guys' ship and then gets cold-cocked and trussed up; in New Order, Fifth just lets her go - she doesn't escape heroically; it's Jonas (not Sam) who comes up with the idea to take the Stargate out of the mountain when Ba'al is bombarding the iris; in Reckoning, it's ultimately Jacob who finishes setting the Ancient machine to work - not Sam... and these are just the things that popped into my mind as I was typing - I know that there are more good examples of 'Carter screws up' and 'Carter does not have the answers to the problem'...

Why would anyone feel the need to make this character *more* fallible?

Sam Carter, as played by Amanda Tapping, was one of the few female lead characters who came across as human and yet strong and competent and worthy of standing alongside the male superheroes.

If the show was to spend some episodes focussing on major screw-ups of the male leads, it might lessen the impact of the screw-ups and failures written for the character of Carter.

When I say I want Sam to be competent, I don't mean that I want her to be perfect. From my Oxford pocket dictionary: "Competent - Having the ability or authority to do what is required; adequate." To my mind, there's a big difference between competence and perfection.

But I guess we do have a difference of opinion on whether or not Sam is portrayed realistically or not. I think TPTB have created a wonderful character that *is* believable given the context of the show, where the other characters are equally larger than life. (And if they decide they have to bring one character down to the level of "completely realistic," I sure hope they'll bring all of them down at the same time.) There are some pretty amazingly competent women out there in the world, and I have to wonder if these extreme critics (not meaning you, Atteria) have ever read read the biographies of some of our female astronauts if they don't think that women can be brilliant, beautiful, and perform with competence in high stress situations.

What I don't want to see is a great character brought down because a contingent of fans view her as "too perfect" or because they want to promote other characters. If the TPTB want to promote Cam and Vala, I'm really fine with that. I do think I'm going to like both of their characters. I just don't want them to make a fool of Sam so Vala can steal the spotlight... I don't want that anymore than I'd want them to make a fool of Daniel, Teal'c, or Jack to make Sam look like a hero.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that I want Sam to be the competent officer and scientist they have already shown she can be. I don't want TPTB to "dumbassify" her in order to prove she can make mistakes. I don't want them to have her making incompetent decisions just to show she isn't perfect. They've already shown, repeatedly, that she is quite capable of screwing up both at work and in her private life. But the complaints about her perfection persist, and I don't want TPTB to keep setting her up for failure until they've dragged her so far down that she loses all respect just to prove she's human to her critics.

It's one thing to have her make competent decisions or follow orders that ultimately back-fire through no fault of her own. Or even play up the conflict between emotional decisions and rational decisions and the impact that following one over the other might have (ala Gemini). It's a good way to show her humanity. But it's another matter to set her up for failure for failure's sake. It is possible to write stories that don't do that, and I think they've done a good job of it in the past. Hopefully, Lys will be right in that they don't make Sam look like an idiot in Beach Head.

Well said, Strix! There's a big difference between vulnerabilities and screwing-up... heroes can have vulnerabilities... and they can screw-up - as long as they get to learn from the mistakes and/or grow stronger from them or triumph in the end. Unfortunately, to date, Sam's screw-ups have often just been left hanging there. So... that makes her human. OK, great. No offense to all of those who want Sam Carter to just be human... I was really enjoying the possibility of a strong female heroic lead, larger than life - just like the guys. Jack's got the Ancient gene and can operate Ancient technology, Daniel has Ascended and Descended (and Ascended and Descended) and held off the Replicators with his mind, Teal'c is a legendary Jaffa warrior and a leader of his people, Jonas was brilliant and found to be genetically advanced, Mitchell is going to pull the sword from the stone and be a warrior of legendary spirit - a real hero's hero. And Sam? The female lead? Oh, yeah, she's human - she's the one that makes mistakes. Great!

What I wouldn't give for an episode that showed... say, Daniel translating some inscriptions... incorrectly... and then something bad happens when SG-1 acts on his incorrect translations. And then I'd like to see Daniel deal with the emotional fallout and burden of his actions - give MS some wonderful emotional trauma to act out.

[astrogeologist]

My concern is when is starts to seem like she becomes a catch all --- like how it was mentioned earlier about Vala saving the day after Sam was the one who made a mistake. Well, why not one of the guys being the one in error? Why not that newest guy on the team? It just concerns me that it becomes too easy for them to make her character the one they’re going to dump the negative stuff on, and not in a character building way – just a ‘you’re the convenient character here so here – so you get to do this.’

I read the GW interview w/BW & RC and it was interesting to hear how they talked up Jason Momoa’s character and compared him to Rachel Luttrell’s Teyla. RC: “Not that there's anything wrong with her being tough and a fighter and cool, but Jason -- all you have to do is cut to him in the scene and it adds a whole different level of intimidation.” I reread it a couple times and though I understand why they’re saying things like that I kept thinking, but you know, y’all could make T a force to be reckoned with, even if she is a woman physically smaller that RD in stature. All you gots to do it write it.

Same with Sam. All they got to do is write it. Sometimes I wonder if TPTB realize what a wonderful character Sam is?

Well put, Shimmering Star!

I really thank all of you for your positive comments. I really, really, REALLY hope you all are correct in our assumptions and that I am proven once again to be wrong. I would humbly apologize to the powers that be for all the negative thoughts I've had recently if they do infact bring Sam back in a positive light.

I will join you, Kat, in posting apologies to TPTB if they actually do bring Carter back in a strong, competent heroic light... one that maintains the level of her character as an equal hero to that of the male characters.

Of course, the writers should listen to no other fanbase but Samanda for how to write Carter!!

(Ah, yes, I must remind myself,it is just a TV show, but it's MY TV show!!)

You said it chocdoc!

[chocdoc]

Wonderful discussions! And I agree with so much of what has been posted - you folks are so great with the written word - and the humor!

As for the Beach Head spoilers, I immediately felt as Strix and Kat and others felt... I like the optimism shown by some other posters here, but after so many decades of viewing female roles on TV and in movies... I am definitely sad and disappointed that Sam Carter isn't being portrayed with the same heroic fervor as Cameron Mitchell. The lead heros on a scifi show... are just that - heros... and the longer the show lasts, the more they become SuperHeros. Apparently, the folks on Stargate are attempting to go against that grain with the character of Sam Carter... attempting to show her as fallible... and human... and prone to screwing up. Unfortunately, they have not shown Daniel, Teal'c or Jack screwing up in similar or commeasurate manners or events.... which magnifies Sam's screw-ups. Personally, I liked having a strong female character alongside the male heroes... AT portrayed Sam Carter with such a wonderful warmth and compassion that I didn't see Carter as the infallible superhero... I saw SC as one of the brilliant and competent women who can shine when allowed to. I am terribly sad to see the devolvement of that wonderful strength and competence.

There are many times throughout the series where Carter was shown to have faults and to *not* have the miracle answer for the immediate problem at hand. In A Matter of Time, she was shown to be too focussed on science and not focussed enough on compassion when she requested that they keep the wormhole established to watch the effects of the black hole; In Solitudes she is *not* able to figure out how to save O'Neill and herself; in Red Sky, she jeopardizes the entire population of another planet; in 48 Hours, she doesn't know how to save Teal'c and Jack insults her (and it's written so that she deserves it) with that 'pulling ideas out of your butt' line'; in Gemini she allows RC access to the plans for the Ancient weapon - and then intends to take RC back to Earth when Fifth's fleet approaches; when they crash the Goa'uld mothership into the ocean, it's Jonas that's the superhero and saves everyone while Sam can't pull the miracle out of her hat; in Avenger 2.0, Carter and Felger are going to get slaughtered by Jaffa until Jack shows up and saves the day - Carter doesn't do that; in Death Knell, Carter evades the Supersoldier for an unspecified length of time, but ultimately fails and is facing her immiment death - until Teal'c and Jack come to her rescue; in Endgame, she is captured easily by the bad guys; in Reckoning, it's ultimately Jacob who finishes setting the Ancient machine to work - not Sam... and these are just the things that popped into my mind as I was typing - I know that there are more good examples of 'Carter screws up' and 'Carter does not have the answers to the problem'...

Why would anyone feel the need to make this character more fallible?

Sam Carter, as played by Amanda Tapping, was one of the few female lead characters who came across as human and yet strong and competent and worthy of standing alongside the male superheroes.

If the show was to spend some episodes focussing on major screw-ups of the male leads, it might lessen the impact of the screw-ups and failures written for the character of Carter.

Well said, Strix! There's a big difference between vulnerabilities and screwing-up... heroes can have vulnerabilities... and they can screw-up - as long as they get to learn from the mistakes and/or grow stronger from them or triumph in the end. Unfortunately, to date, Sam's screw-ups have often just been left hanging there. So... that makes her human. OK, great. No offense to all of those who want Sam Carter to just be human... I was really enjoying the possibility of a strong female heroic lead, larger than life - just like the guys. Jack's got the Ancient gene and can operate Ancient technology, Daniel has Ascended and Descended (and Ascended and Descended) and held off the Replicators with his mind, Teal'c is a legendary Jaffa warrior and a leader of his people, Jonas was brilliant and found to be genetically advanced, Mitchell is going to pull the sword from the stone and be a warrior of legendary spirit - a real hero's hero. And Sam? The female lead? Oh, yeah, she's human - she's the one that makes mistakes. Great!

What I wouldn't give for an episode that showed... say, Daniel translating some inscriptions... incorrectly... and then something bad happens when SG-1 acts on his incorrect translations. And then I'd like to see Daniel deal with the emotional fallout and burden of his actions - give MS some wonderful emotional trauma to act out.

AstroG---you need to diistribute your "Carter is fallible, da** it" list to the SuperSam folks!!

Well, I feel like I'm jumping the gun here with these spoilers----I think I'll go with Binkpmmc's version for now!!

[astrogeologist]

A small excerpt from 'Code of Honour'

Sam was thunderstruck. “Gunny… I just did my job. What I’ve been trained to do.”

“With all due respect, ma’am, you did a helluva lot more than just your job. You didn’t have to go back there. Not after what happened. I don’t know everything, but if even a little bit of the scuttlebutt is true, no one would’a blamed you for never going back to that place again. But you went back and faced something that would’ve had some good men running the other way.”

“Gunny…I’m not sure what to say…” Sam trailed off. Overt complements like this were things that had always made her uncomfortable. So rarely could she see the need for them.

“I know you don’t ma’am, that’s what makes you such an outstanding officer. Just wanted you to know. And that I’d follow you to hell and back, any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Ma’am.” Gunnery Sergeant Walker came to rigid attention, executed a picture perfect about face, and strode from the room, leaving a stunned Air Force officer to ponder what he had said.


.........

Now that's how to write Sam Carter!

[ShimmeringStar]

There are some pretty amazingly competent women out there in the world, and I have to wonder if these extreme critics (not meaning you, Atteria) have ever read read the biographies of some of our female astronauts if they don't think that women can be brilliant, beautiful, and perform with competence in high stress situations.

When I’d read this earlier it made me think about 2 books I recently picked up about women in the armed services. I finished about a month ago: She Went to War: The Rhonda Cornum Story about Major Rhonda Cornum (Army officer, helicopter pilot, flight surgeon, wife, and mother, with a Ph.D. in biochemistry). She was a POW in Iraq during Desert Storm, suffering through her imprisonment with both arms broken (from the helicopter crash).

Still trying to finish reading Generally Speaking: Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (Ret.) She was the Army’s first woman three-star general (and was Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence). I’m only a third of the way through, but it is a very good read so far. (It’s tough when you’re trying to feed the reading habit in amongst the newer addictions, ehhh… *habits* of GW, writing fanfic, Photoshop… reading seems to take forever no matter how you try to sneak it in… while eating, while brushing your teeth, while…. ) Both of these books were/are good. And they were both examples of women in high-visibility leadership roles who took crisis situations as they came, coolly, calmly, and level-headly.

[1speed4Sam]

Actual time posted: Friday 8th July 7:16 PM BST / 6:16 PM GMT

Now that the forum's back, hopefully Sky will permit me yet another quick off-topic post...

I'm really just dropping by to say Thank You for all your messages of concern and support to us UK-based Samandans in the wake of yesterday's events in London.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure quite how I feel about it all. Of course, my thoughts and sympathies go out to all the victims and their families and friends. But, unlike Coley, I have no connections with the London area, and so to a certain extent do not feel personally *involved*.

On the other hand, this is my country which has been attacked, and my fellow human beings who have been killed and injured, so of course it does *involve* me.

I spent most of yesterday evening struggling to come to terms with these emotions. Then I read tsaxlady's testimony about her cousin, which really knocked me for six and I just didn't feel up to posting anything.

However, seeing everybody round here carrying on as normal lifted the gloom no end, and helped put the smile back on my face.

It's so good to know there is always this safe and (mostly) happy place to which we can escape in times of trouble.

Hic Comitas Regit.

Peace and Love,

1speed

[astrogeologist]

When I’d read this earlier it made me think about 2 books I recently picked up about women in the armed services. I finished about a month ago: She Went to War: The Rhonda Cornum Story about Major Rhonda Cornum (Army officer, helicopter pilot, flight surgeon, wife, and mother, with a Ph.D. in biochemistry). She was a POW in Iraq during Desert Storm, suffering through her imprisonment with both arms broken (from the helicopter crash).

Still trying to finish reading Generally Speaking: Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (Ret.) She was the Army’s first woman three-star general (and was Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence). I’m only a third of the way through, but it is a very good read so far. (It’s tough when you’re trying to feed the reading habit in amongst the newer addictions, ehhh… *habits* of GW, writing fanfic, Photoshop… reading seems to take forever no matter how you try to sneak it in… while eating, while brushing your teeth, while…. ) Both of these books were/are good. And they were both examples of women in high-visibility leadership roles who took crisis situations as they came, coolly, calmly, and level-headly.

Wonderful recommendations, Shimmering Star! Thanks!

[Agent_Dark]

A small excerpt from 'Code of Honour'

Sam was thunderstruck. “Gunny… I just did my job. What I’ve been trained to do.”

“With all due respect, ma’am, you did a helluva lot more than just your job. You didn’t have to go back there. Not after what happened. I don’t know everything, but if even a little bit of the scuttlebutt is true, no one would’a blamed you for never going back to that place again. But you went back and faced something that would’ve had some good men running the other way.”

“Gunny…I’m not sure what to say…” Sam trailed off. Overt complements like this were things that had always made her uncomfortable. So rarely could she see the need for them.

“I know you don’t ma’am, that’s what makes you such an outstanding officer. Just wanted you to know. And that I’d follow you to hell and back, any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Ma’am.” Gunnery Sergeant Walker came to rigid attention, executed a picture perfect about face, and strode from the room, leaving a stunned Air Force officer to ponder what he had said.


.........

Now that's how to write Sam Carter!

Argh, that just has to be the fic I stopped reading because of the ship

Well, maybe I can just skim past those shippy bits...

[majorsal]

Spoiler:

Hmm, is it just me or does it seem like once again the writers are making it so Sam is the screw up who causes yet another issue that requires someone else to be the hero[ in this case Vala]. I'm seriously NOT liking the direction this episode or season is going. Why don't the writers just shoot Sam in the head already instead of slowly bleeding her dry. I just see this as just one more reason for SamBashers to dislike Sam.

I'm beginning to really feel bad fo Amanda.

sambashers will always bash sam, no matter what she does or doesn't do.

but as for the spoilers - i'm not scared or bothered by them. i'm sure sam will come out fine. heck, i thought she came out fine in gemini!


sally

[majorsal]

That's exactly the first impression I got when I read the spoilers. But after a second reading I noticed that

Spoiler:

it's General Landry who believes the weapon will be efficient against the Ori, not Sam. I think she's going to follow orders reluctantly because she knows the limits of the Mark IX. It reminds me of the situation in Chain Reaction when she had to agree to General Bauer's orders. .

What can I say, I'm an optimist.

i still wish someone would have written a fic where sam 'did' refuse to follow bauer's orders... and was thrown in a cell for it. sam behind bars!


sally

[Agent_Dark]

i still wish someone would have written a fic where sam 'did' refuse to follow bauer's orders... and was thrown in a cell for it. sam behind bars!


sally

Ah, you mean like the movies she was talking about in Hathor?
/me runs

[majorsal]

Regarding that matter… I hereby announce, that in my stead, I temporarily promote Vice President MajorSal, to the role of Samandan President!!!! I am entrusting my kingdom to you… treat it well!!

(oh sh*t!)

*clears throat*

okay, i'm a tough president! the ONLY thing i require from my staff is....

kindness.

this will be an easy job.



sally