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    teal'c did the same thing in demons, ignored sam and did whatever he wanted to do

    i think that's rather common, for guys to not think the female has anything important to say

    i also think that explains why sam babbles.

    ok, let's say she needs something, she goes to her co and says 'i need x'....chances are he's going to go huh? why? and probably not get what she's asking for (i'm going off the theory here that sam, a pro in the more esoteric arts/sciences has had more than one CO who was not a scientist like herself)

    however, if sam goes into him with a 10 page explanation of what she needs, how and why, she literally technobabbles him into doing what she wants.

    I think this explains a lot of jack's perceived rude cutting off of sam. she's still used to having to prove that she's right and knows what she's talking about while jack has gotten to the point that he doesn't need explanations, he just needs to know what she needs
    Where in the World is George Hammond?


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      Originally posted by Skydiver
      i seem to recal amanda saying in an interview or something that during the first season, she tried to bond with the guys. going out to clubs, even strip clubs, just acting like a guy

      but then realized that she didn't need to do that to fit in with the cast, she just needed to be 'me' and let them accept her as she is
      Thank God! Sheesh, I agree with MajorSam: That is definitely a picture! And, the irony of it all is that she's now totally considered a caring older/younger "sister" among the cast and crew - well, maybe not to RDA, cuz they flirt a lot it seems, but you get the idea. Heh heh.

      Originally posted by MajorSam
      HAHAH, Oh dear, now I'll have images of Amanda going to strip clubs in my head all day...

      I don't know how this woud tie in with all the "one of the guys" thing, but I wanted to recount this tale of when Amanda was auditioning for Stargate. It was the time when she was just like, standing beside RDA to "see how they looked together" type thing, and he put his arm around her and stuff and said

      "So what do you think babe? It's alright if I can call you babe, rite?"

      To which she replied

      "No, not at all, if you don't mind me calling you dick!"

      I think that's a very intelligent reply.

      Regarding the whole women in military thing, in my little thing the top 3 out of the top 4 ranks are females (including me Oh yeah, I got promoted the other week! EEEEEEEEEEH) And I must admit I do see that the guys still don't pay as much attention to what we say than what most of the guys say. I think that has part to do with we actually try and get stuff done while all the guys just mess around and slack off, but...

      I think it all has to do with the person, and the circumstances. Variables everywhere!
      Oh jeez. AT's a brave woman, if you ask me. I mean, honestly, he's an Executive Producer, and he didn't know her from Adam (or, uh... Eve?) at the time, right? How did he react to that comment?

      Also, yeah, congrats on your promotion! I don't think I ever caught the details of that trip from you! Sorry about the guys, too... It's amazing how the "gender wars," though needless and stupid, are having to be fought all over the world. Sheesh.

      Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess
      Finally, fast forward to that horrible scene in Fragile Balance when Sam, the most experienced glider pilot in the room, was summarily dismissed by lower ranking and equal ranking flyboys, men who perked right up when the little male came in and took charge away from her. <rarrrguuggggrrrghhh!>
      UGH! Jeez. Dangerous stuff, if you ask me. The writers may not even have meant it in that oh-so-gender-bashing way, but unfortunately EVEN IN THIS DAY AND AGE ( ) you have to be doubly cautious and aware of how certain things look. In this case - maybe because I'm a female, maybe not -I was definitely miffed. There's also the fact that the whole room was filled with men, IIRC. Now, from pretty much S4 on, they've done pretty well in making sure that many women are seen as officers present on the base.

      As far as I know, Sam's probably the highest ranking of them all. I think TPTB have even gone so far as to make it a little unrealistic, but hey, I kinda appreciate that version of reality more, so I'll take it. At any rate, WHY would there be no other females who are pilots or 2ICs in S7, for crying out loud? AND, if they all had to be males, why couldn't ANY of them show Sam an ounce of respect, considering she probably outranked (and if not outranked, had more tenure at the SGC than) a few. Interesting...

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        Back to Sam and Teal'c for a sec.

        Okay, you've all got me peaked. Though I don't usually read fanfic, could somebody please give me links to the above-mentioned stories that feature Sam and Teal'c? I'm too lazy to search on my own.

        Any pointers in the right direction would be appreciated. The weekends 'acoming and I may have some time to goof off.

        Thanks.

        hrh

        Comment


          Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
          Thank God! Sheesh, I agree with MajorSam: That is definitely a picture! And, the irony of it all is that she's now totally considered a caring older/younger "sister" among the cast and crew - well, maybe not to RDA, cuz they flirt a lot it seems, but you get the idea. Heh heh.


          rda is a flirt. from all i understand, he is well aware of his natural charisma and had fun flirting

          a lot of thier natural byplay is what led to some of the ship that folks see on screen. both rda and amanda have a natural chemistry and they play well off each other. and i think she was safe to flirt with...she's married so that's all it ever was, fun flirting

          but that flirting became what some saw as ship.

          personally, i see a lot of rda's adlibs as his efforts to crack amanda up. if you watch sometimes when he comes up with his zingers, he glances at her, like he's trying to crack her up

          i think it's a game between them
          Where in the World is George Hammond?


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            Originally posted by MajorSam
            HAHAH, Oh dear, now I'll have images of Amanda going to strip clubs in my head all day...

            I don't know how this woud tie in with all the "one of the guys" thing, but I wanted to recount this tale of when Amanda was auditioning for Stargate. It was the time when she was just like, standing beside RDA to "see how they looked together" type thing, and he put his arm around her and stuff and said

            "So what do you think babe? It's alright if I can call you babe, rite?"

            To which she replied

            "No, not at all, if you don't mind me calling you dick!"

            I think that's a very intelligent reply.

            Regarding the whole women in military thing, in my little thing the top 3 out of the top 4 ranks are females (including me Oh yeah, I got promoted the other week! EEEEEEEEEEH) And I must admit I do see that the guys still don't pay as much attention to what we say than what most of the guys say. I think that has part to do with we actually try and get stuff done while all the guys just mess around and slack off, but...

            I think it all has to do with the person, and the circumstances. Variables everywhere!
            I remember reading that story about her and RDA onstage the first time too and am still LOL ... she set the tone from the beginning and he seemed to respect that.

            I always think back to the scene in Fragile Balance where those young fly boys would not show her the respect demanded by the situation, yet when Clone Jack came into the briefing and proved that he was Jack, the whole dynamic changed. It sounds like women, as leaders in the military, have a harder time commanding respect. That shows how little we traveled in some circles.

            Congrats on your promotion!! Hopefully, you will grow into the role and those young bucks will straighten up and fly right!
            Last edited by ChopinGal; 11 February 2005, 08:52 AM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by the dancer of spaz
              Thank God! Sheesh, I agree with MajorSam: That is definitely a picture! And, the irony of it all is that she's now totally considered a caring older/younger "sister" among the cast and crew - well, maybe not to RDA, cuz they flirt a lot it seems, but you get the idea. Heh heh.



              Oh jeez. AT's a brave woman, if you ask me. I mean, honestly, he's an Executive Producer, and he didn't know her from Adam (or, uh... Eve?) at the time, right? How did he react to that comment?

              Also, yeah, congrats on your promotion! I don't think I ever caught the details of that trip from you! Sorry about the guys, too... It's amazing how the "gender wars," though needless and stupid, are having to be fought all over the world. Sheesh.



              UGH! Jeez. Dangerous stuff, if you ask me. The writers may not even have meant it in that oh-so-gender-bashing way, but unfortunately EVEN IN THIS DAY AND AGE ( ) you have to be doubly cautious and aware of how certain things look. In this case - maybe because I'm a female, maybe not -I was definitely miffed. There's also the fact that the whole room was filled with men, IIRC. Now, from pretty much S4 on, they've done pretty well in making sure that many women are seen as officers present on the base.

              As far as I know, Sam's probably the highest ranking of them all. I think TPTB have even gone so far as to make it a little unrealistic, but hey, I kinda appreciate that version of reality more, so I'll take it. At any rate, WHY would there be no other females who are pilots or 2ICs in S7, for crying out loud? AND, if they all had to be males, why couldn't ANY of them show Sam an ounce of respect, considering she probably outranked (and if not outranked, had more tenure at the SGC than) a few. Interesting...
              Dancer - so sorry - I didn't scroll back and read what you wrote and it sounds like I'm just copying you but, actually, you can seen that we both (and a few others here), as women, were very aware of how that flyboy scene in Fragile Balance was definitely out of line!

              That, of course, leads us to the whole why aren't there women writers on the show? tangent ... another place, another day.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Skydiver
                rda is a flirt. from all i understand, he is well aware of his natural charisma and had fun flirting

                a lot of thier natural byplay is what led to some of the ship that folks see on screen. both rda and amanda have a natural chemistry and they play well off each other. and i think she was safe to flirt with...she's married so that's all it ever was, fun flirting

                but that flirting became what some saw as ship.

                personally, i see a lot of rda's adlibs as his efforts to crack amanda up. if you watch sometimes when he comes up with his zingers, he glances at her, like he's trying to crack her up

                i think it's a game between them
                I agree! RDA couldn't have found a finer leading lady for these past eight seasons - she compliments him so well. And it's so fun to watch and try to find some of those even more subtle moments.

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                  Originally posted by Coley
                  I've been reading the posts on the episode Hathor.

                  I didn't know whether to post my comments as I'm not sure if they would make sense - but everyone is very friendly and forgiving on this thread - so here goes!

                  Now whilst there was some stuff in there that I quite liked - Teryl getting in on the action and proving she isn't just a doctor was great. The fact that the women save the day in the end - and I guess hinting at the weaknesses of man were quite refreshing, however the ep never seemed to sit right with me.

                  There is one sentence that certainly had me shaking my head in pity for the writer.

                  "I can't figure out how to be one of the guys around these guys. I always feel like I'm the girl."

                  Now I've spent most of my life with males - playing football etc at school, cycling, rock climbing - etc mainly because non of my female friends were into that sort of thing. Now never have I wanted to feel like "one of the guys" - its just not an issue. I've always been just me and been happy to share the things I love doing. It just so happens that most of my friends are male and are on the whole great company. In fact quite often I have been in situations where I've been surrounded by men being men and I've been shaking my head taking the p out of them and being very thankful I'm a woman! Lets be honest on an emotional level we are very different

                  So it seemed to me such an odd comment to make. I really don't think Sam would sit around and frustrate about being a woman - or spend her time trying to figure out "how to fit in" with them at all. And I'm sure Sam is more likely to think if you treat me differently in the workplace because I'm a woman - that’s your problem.

                  So that sentence sort of had me a little worried about how the writer viewed women in the military - and women who like to do sporty, adventurous things in general. And I think that coloured my view of the ep a little bit.
                  Coley, Wonderful post! And I agree wholeheartedly with your comments and observations about the episode Hathor and "fitting in as one of the guys". As I was growing up, I loved sports and thought dresses were silly (harder to play all sorts of sports in them), so folks wanted to categorize me as a tomboy and I always bristled against the stereotyping - even as a kid it bugged me that they wanted to 'put me in a box'. My parents never made a big deal about what was 'for girls' and what was 'for boys' - it was just basically a non-issue... (but maybe that's because they had 2 girls and my dad had to have someone to play ball with ). At any rate, I didn't want to be labelled a tomboy... or a girly-girl... I wanted to do what was fun and seemed right at the time... play ball one day... and maybe wear a dress the next day if I felt like it. Cut my hair short if I felt like it... and maybe wear that pink fluffy shirt if I wanted to... or not wear it if I didn't want to! In addition to sports, I loved chess and science and could never get enough to read, so I think they ultimately gave up with the attempted stereotypes. Most of my family just sees me as me... well, there is Grandma... who's always muttering about getting me into a dress, but I cut her some slack - she *is* 95!

                  So, I haven't had a problem with Sam's changing wardrobe - and I actually think it's pretty cool. I also love seeing scientist Sam, soldier Sam, adrenaline junkie Sam, etc. People are multi-faceted, and hopefully, we grow more so as we grow older (would hate to think we do the opposite).

                  Unfortunately, there are always lots of folks around trying to 'stick us in those confining stereotype boxes' and I think that some of the early series writing just assumed that any woman in the military must be a tomboy-ball-buster who was chomping at the bit to prove that men and women can be equal. I like AT's approach better... don't argue about it... just do it - show the competence and equality without debate... and make it a 'done deal'!

                  Before joining this thread, Hathor was for me in a list of episodes and scenes that included Emancipation and the briefing room scene in COTG... where the issue of a woman on the team, or women in the military, was presented combatively (or antagonistically).
                  Originally posted by NearlyCircular
                  Coley, as I went back and watched season 1 again, that line stuck out to me as well. It did seem a little off. But I found other such moments in season 1, most obviously in the pilot, when Sam gives her "reproductive organs on the outside" speech. I don't picture Sam saying either line today, partly because Sam has changed, but mainly because the writers have changed.

                  I chalk it up to TPTB feeling their way into the character. They weren't sure how to write Sam at first, and it shows. Wasn't it during that first season when Amanda asked the writers to write Sam as a soldier, not a female soldier, and let Amanda take care of the rest? Once they had that input, things seemed to improve. NC
                  I much prefer AT's approach of asking them to just write Carter as a soldier (or, I think she also suggested that they write as if they were writing for Daniel) and then just let her play the role and the fact that AT is a woman was all that would be necessary on the gender 'issue'.

                  Originally posted by deepspace
                  And I watched Hathor tonight. The line you are talking about Coley, I don't know, I can't help but feel that maybe a woman in the Airforce might want to feel like 'one of the guys'. It doesn't necissarily mean that Sam doesn't like being a woman, only that being female you always have to try harder, I think. But hey, I'm only a baby, so what am I talking about.
                  Overall, it was good to see Hathor again, especially after AstroG's shots. It's still not my favourite for showing Sam, in comparison to say, 'Foothold', or 'A Matter of Time'. But It's better than my memory of the last time I saw it.
                  As Skydiver and others have previously commented, the series writing has been at times uneven... with some good attributes and lines and then some that are jarring or seem a bit out-of-character... the comments and postings on this thread are helping me focus in on, and enjoy, the wonderful moments and scenes (and there sure are a lot of them) and to not allow the not-so-positive aspects/scenes to take over my feelings and evaluations of the show.

                  Many thanks to all of you!
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                  Last edited by astrogeologist; 11 February 2005, 03:49 PM.

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                    MajorSam: I got promoted the other week! EEEEEEEEEEH
                    big congratulations majorsam !!!!!!!

                    Tok'ra Hostess: I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head about Sam's complaint; she wants to be "one of the guys" in that she wants the same respect as "the guys" give each other.
                    In Hathor, Sam was treated rather pratronizingly by Jack when she tried to talk him out of letting the Goa'uld roam about freely on base - though admittedly, Jack wasn't quite himself at the time - but it makes you wonder whether she'd experienced such treatment before. I think the series says that she had.
                    Her "I can handle whatever you can handle" spiel in COTG seems to bear that out, as well as her "When was the last time you saw a woman assigned to the SGC" statement in Hathor.
                    Then there's Teal'c's dismissal of her orders(Hathor) when she said "We'll go on three." The look she gave him said to me that Sam was used to this sort of thing from guys. I also believe that Teal'c would not have reacted like he did if Jack had said, "On three."
                    Now here's a tiny detail from Matter of Time: She tells Simmons to close the iris. Simmons responds that it is an outgoing wormhole; that nothing came come in through it. She then reminds him that he's been given an order. Does anyone think that if Jack, Hammond, or even Siler had said, "close the iris," that the lieutenant would have argued?
                    Finally, fast forward to that horrible scene in Fragile Balance when Sam, the most experienced glider pilot in the room, was summarily dismissed by lower ranking and equal ranking flyboys, men who perked right up when the little male came in and took charge away from her. <rarrrguuggggrrrghhh!>
                    Thankyou! I think you said just about exactly what I was trying to say, but I didn't know how to say it. I know a lot of women probably don't feel like this, but I feel like I've always had to try harder, struggle more, to gain equal respect as boys around me. And I've tried to do that, I admit, by 'just doing' things, and letting people see that I can do them, rather than trying to argue that I can do them.
                    On the other hand, I know personally in myself that there are a lot of things that I couldn't do 'as well as guys can', and that sometimes pisses me off, other times I just say hey, you're female, live with it and enjoy it.

                    I think, in comparison to earlier seasons, Carter does command more respect from Teal'c than she used to. So in a way, now would be the time for a good Carter/Teal'c friendship episode, whereas if they had done one in the days of Hathor, we might have had a whole episode of Teal'c dismissing everything she had to say.

                    ...deepspace is a PROUD MEMBER of the Sam's A Great Character Thread...

                    HIC COMITAS REGIT!

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                      Originally posted by Skydiver

                      I think this explains a lot of jack's perceived rude cutting off of sam. she's still used to having to prove that she's right and knows what she's talking about while jack has gotten to the point that he doesn't need explanations, he just needs to know what she needs
                      I agree. I think she's also so excited about how she's solved the scientific problem that she just wants to share. She's so involved in it that in a way she can't see why everyone else wouldn't also be interested. I've certainly regaled friends & family with something I've been working on (non scientific) and then realized, whoops, rein it in, they don't care.

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                        I think I know how that feels. Sometimes I start talking to someone about a piece of really interesting information I read recently, or something I'm really excited and enthusiastic about, and they listen for a little while, and then say something like "sure, yeah, ok. Hey, have you seen that movie about..."
                        (I get this quite a bit when I'm talking Stargate!)

                        ...deepspace is a PROUD MEMBER of the Sam's A Great Character Thread...

                        HIC COMITAS REGIT!

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                          Originally posted by deepspace
                          Thankyou! I think you said just about exactly what I was trying to say, but I didn't know how to say it. I know a lot of women probably don't feel like this, but I feel like I've always had to try harder, struggle more, to gain equal respect as boys around me. And I've tried to do that, I admit, by 'just doing' things, and letting people see that I can do them, rather than trying to argue that I can do them.
                          Deepspace, I think that you've nailed one of Sam's problems right on the head. Her role is so much more difficult than the guys'... she is always having to reprove herself... always having to prove that she's worthy of her position. And, because she's the female character, she also has to contend with the conflicting demands that society places on women - be all that the men are, but be a woman too. And there are so many different ideas of what today's women should be and do... perceptions are changing slowly over the decades and centuries... but they are still evolving.

                          I think that some of the uneven writing that we've seen over the seasons for Sam's character reflects these conflicting and ever-evolving expectations and demands of what and who women are and should be. Errrr... does that sentence even make sense?
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                            Originally posted by ChopinGal
                            I always think back to the scene in Fragile Balance where those young fly boys would not show her the respect demanded by the situation, yet when Clone Jack came into the briefing and proved that he was Jack, the whole dynamic changed. It sounds like women, as leaders in the military, have a harder time commanding respect. That shows how little we traveled in some circles.
                            I think the writers were so focused on how much fun they were having with young O'Neill's caricature of older O'Neill that what they did to Carter was collateral damage that they really didn't notice... or think was a big enough deal to let the opportunity for the scene go away... it was really a Jack O'Neill scene... so I would have preferred if they had written it so that the briefing had been handed off to some male X302 engineer (who doesn't even know how to actually pilot a plane - and then the other pilots' objections would make sense)... and then O'Neill comes busting into the briefing, and Carter has to be called in to vouch for who he is - and then he takes over and Carter is seen off to the side soothing the ruffled engineer's feathers. That way, the writers could have had their Jack-O'Neill-has-to-be-himself scene, but it wouldn't have been at the expense of the female lead.
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                              Originally posted by astrogeologist
                              I think the writers were so focused on how much fun they were having with young O'Neill's caricature of older O'Neill that what they did to Carter was collateral damage that they really didn't notice... or think was a big enough deal to let the opportunity for the scene go away... it was really a Jack O'Neill scene... so I would have preferred if they had written it so that the briefing had been handed off to some male X302 engineer (who doesn't even know how to actually pilot a plane - and then the other pilots' objections would make sense)... and then O'Neill comes busting into the briefing, and Carter has to be called in to vouch for who he is - and then he takes over and Carter is seen off to the side soothing the ruffled engineer's feathers. That way, the writers could have had their Jack-O'Neill-has-to-be-himself scene, but it wouldn't have been at the expense of the female lead.
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                              From your post to TPTB! I absolutely detest that scene. It makes me squirm everytime I see it.
                              On a lighter note...spoilers for Threads
                              Spoiler:
                              I thought AT was great in this episode. I felt the scenes she played with Jacob were just right. She showed how sad she was without going overboard, but her eyes always had the glint of tears in them.
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                                Re: the Fragile Balance flyboy scene...when I saw that, I always imagined one of two followup scenes: one is simply later during the same briefing when one of the pilots asks a dumb question, the other is during an actual combat flight training, where one of them makes a stupid mistake and gets taken "out," and O'Neill says "See, if you'd been paying attention during Major Carter's 302 tech briefing, you wouldn't look like such an idiot right now."

                                On the good side though, we do have that REALLY fab scene in "The Warrior" where O'Neill asks Carter to demonstrate the P90. I ADORE that scene. It's one of my favorite Carter scenes, 'cause it shows her kicking trash and O'Neill basking in admiration. You could interpret it as just a CO being proud of an exceptional officer under his command (and nothing more) or you could interpret it as that and Jack being turned on by it. As a shipper, you know where I stand...it's one of my favorite shippy scenes as well as a favorite Carter scene.

                                And I like what Skydiver said:
                                I think this explains a lot of jack's perceived rude cutting off of sam. she's still used to having to prove that she's right and knows what she's talking about while jack has gotten to the point that he doesn't need explanations, he just needs to know what she needs
                                O'Neill trusts Carter implicitly. And I think it's not a new thing...early on, it's obvious that he trusts Teal'c as a warrior and relies on him, but he's not so sure of Carter. But at some point, and I'm not even sure when, but I'm pretty sure it's still back in season 1, I get the feeling that he gets to that same level of trust with Sam, not only as a technical expert, but also as a warrior. It's not even an issue for him, and I think that speaks well of O'Neill as a man as well as a CO.
                                Sam & Jack 'Ship...

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