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    Would it be getting too far off the track to bring up Sam's outfits? She seems to be getting a lot of criticism elsewhere. What do the rest of you Sam fans think of the increase in leather and tank tops in the last season or so? AT looks great in everything. But are they Sam? Thoughts?

    Comment


      Are they Sam...

      Let me divide this up into two sections.

      The Tank Tops

      Sam is a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Air Force, a conservative institution if there ever was one, she is also a graduate of the US Air Force Academy, and the daughter of an Air Force general. Uniforms are very important to the institution and I have difficulty believing that a Lieutenant Colonel, a well respected unit commander in her early forties, would wear a tank top around a base within the Continental United States (CONUS). CONUS bases are very strict and officers are expected to abide by uniform requirements. To quote from the Air Force Officer's Guide:

      "Although all Air Force personnel must maintain a high standard of dress and appearance, officers in particular whose manner of dress and personal appearance provide a visual example for enlisted personnel, must wear the uniform in a manner that emphasizes pride and must keep their personal appearance above reproach."

      There are examples of wearing uniforms without the jacket. They usually involve war zones or dirty work. Anyone seen Sam working on a greezy MALP engine lately?

      The Teenage Wear

      The shinny pleather jacket (on a covert ops bust mind you!), the pink puffy jacket, the midrift baring shirt. These are not things that one wears to avoid drawing attention to oneself. They are not things that are even age appropriate for Sam, and I seriously question if they are even character appropriate for her.

      But given that this is a show where one of their primary writers/directors talks about US air force headgear looking like macdonalds hats, I suspect it's a lost cause.


      Comment


        Originally posted by jckfan55
        Would it be getting too far off the track to bring up Sam's outfits? She seems to be getting a lot of criticism elsewhere. What do the rest of you Sam fans think of the increase in leather and tank tops in the last season or so? AT looks great in everything. But are they Sam? Thoughts?

        i'm no prude but....these outfits just don't quite fit in with the sam we've seen for years.

        the tank tops on duty??? puhleeese. Ok, they're off world and it's a desert planet, sure. i could see it. but running around the sgc? they really let officers wear tailored t-shirts to emphasize thier physique?

        Not outside the gym

        Sam's personal civilian clothes...well they're not exactly to my taste, but i can live with them since i'm not the one wearing them but they also don't fit in with how we've seen sam in the past

        I can almost see Hank COhen, frustrated that he couldn't keep anise and her shrinking wardrobe in the show, doing what he can to impose that wardrobe on the last female cast member.

        if i was cut loose in the wardrobe dept, i'd lose the tank tops. they're petty and childish and an obvious attempt to appeal to the lowest common demoninator...the young male demographic

        hey, why don't they just hire some dancing girls and let them stand guard in the gateroom?
        Where in the World is George Hammond?


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        Comment


          Warning: Gemini spoilers below
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          Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess
          I think Gemini was faithful to Sam's character.
          I am an avid Carter-fan (oooo surprise, there, right! )... and I saw Gemini for the first time last night - and I thought it was a great episode and I thought it was true to the humanity of Sam's character.

          This episode was similar to Entity in that Sam's curiosity, heart and willingness to trust were at the forefront. I could easily imagine this episode playing out the same way with Daniel in Sam's role.

          I remember so vividly in the episode 'Entity' when Daniel was talking to Jack and Teal'c just after the Entity had taken over Sam.

          DANIEL (to Jack): So basically you're saying if we had just listened to you in the first place and blown it up. No seriously, I'm asking, is that what you're saying?

          TEAL'C: If we had destroyed the entity Daniel Jackson, Major Carter would not have been adversely affected.

          DANIEL: Okay, I know your first instinct is to protect, both of you, that's your job, that's what you do but no matter what happens, no matter how this turns out, Sam wasn't wrong to try to communicate with it.

          I could easily see 'Gemini' splitting SG-1 with Jack and Teal'c on one side of the discussion and Sam and Daniel on the other.

          How or where do we want humanity to develop? Shoot first and don't take any chances? Or are the potential chances worth the risk of extending trust? Of course, the answer is sometimes yes, and sometimes no. So how do we tell the difference?

          In Gemini, there was no way to tell which was the correct path (unless you'd read spoilers... which Jack, Sam and Teal'c didn't get to do!). Sam could have been right... Replicarter could have been telling the truth - and cooperation and trust may have been their only way to stay ahead of Fifth.

          Jack may have seemed to want to take the hardline path and simply destroy Replicarter, but he's no longer the hard, cold Black Ops O'Neill as portrayed by Kurt Russell in the original movie - that character would never have survived 8 years on the TV series - the character had to soften a bit... have some positive hopefullness (get beyond the suicidal O'Neill). In Entity, Jack had to allow Sam to try and communicate with the Entity and in Gemini, they had to take the chance with Replicarter.

          And even Teal'c didn't stay resolute on destroying the Replicarter. He had the opportunity - Replicarter asked him to do it when the two of them were alone in that interrogation room... but he faltered. His humanity swayed him when there was no one else in the room to do so. Even Teal'c doesn't have a heart that allows the world to be painted in black and whites.

          The question of who and when to trust was also featured in the episode 'Forsaken'. The aliens that they first meet turn out to be the escaped prisoners... and the ones that 'attack' them turn out to be the 'good guys'... In particular, the conversation between Carter and Corso applies directly to the theme of trust:

          CORSO: Colonel O’Neill doesn’t trust us, does he?

          CARTER: [...] Colonel O’Neill is less concerned with showing distrust.

          CORSO: So why are you helping us?

          CARTER: Well it’s the only way you make new friends. Take a chance on someone and hope they don’t make you regret it.

          This very same question was tackled in the original movie... Daniel was the voice of hope and trust who opened himself to the experience of meeting new people... contrasted against those who intended to solve the problem with a suicide mission and a nuclear bomb. The Abydossians were considered acceptable collateral damage. Daniel and Skaara reached the humanity in O'Neill's soul and they didn't annihilate the Abydossians or their 'Gate. And this seems right, doesn't it? Isn't that what we should want to see? O'Neill still has a heart and he can't condemn the Abydossians to death?

          But then what happens? The Children of the Gods. And the Air Force is dumbfounded to find out that the Abydossians and their Gate are still around... hmmm... and some poor female air force officer is snatched by Apophis and SGC personnel die in the Gateroom firefight. And then so Sha're and Skaara are Goa'ulded. So does the blame lay with O'Neill? Was he too weak in the original movie? Should he have blown up the Abydossian gate site? What about his lies in his report when he got back? If he hadn't lied would that female officer have been abducted - and what about those soldiers who died in that gateroom firefight - could that have been prevented if O'Neill hadn't allowed his humanity and heart to control his actions? You can bet that there were 'higher ups' in the US Air Force who were definitely pissed at one Jack O'Neill! (Good thing Hammond was reasonable and had a heart of his own).

          At any rate, I think that Gemini re-opened questions that the show has visited before. How much should we trust? How conservative should we be? If we don't extend trust, then we will lose so many opportunities to learn, to grow, to share, to possibly advance or save humanity. But each time we trust, we lay ourselves open to attack.

          It's not surprising that the life experiences of O'Neill and Teal'c would make them more likely to distrust and less likely to take the chance of trusting new people and new situations. Sam and Daniel do not have the same backgrounds that O'Neill and Teal'c do... Sam and Daniel are still willing to extend that trust - to take the chance of being hurt. And neither O'Neill or Teal'c are as closed-off (or hard) as they were 8 years ago.

          RepliCarter took full advantage of this.
          Now that *was* scary.
          RepliCarter had analysed this situation thoroughly - and correctly... very scary. O'Neill and Teal'c may not trust Replicaters... but who would expect that RepliCarter would so astutely predict their emotions? Carter doesn't show that side of herself... in fact, Carter is generally portrayed as *not* being extremely confident (or arrogant) in the personal relations arena.

          Overall, as an episode in the Stargate saga, I thought that Gemini was true to the series characters, true to previous episodes and dilemmas... and it brought the Replicators back to Supreme Threat status by taking away the usefulness of the weapon invented in 'New Order'. Sci Fi series ratings are almost higher when the 'good guys' are struggling against an enemy that appears to be overwhelming and/or unstoppable. In 'New Order' they took away and reduced some of the menace from the Replicators by inventing that gun... so 'Gemini' took the gun away and restored the Replicators back to the highest threat level.
          Originally posted by ChopinGal
          ...trust that [the episode Gemini] will produce even more interesting episodes in the future.
          As far as the portrayal of Carter's character in Gemini, I think it was pretty well done - and it's how I want to see Carter - still willing to take the chance. Hope still resides. Because if that hope is ever quashed... if she were to evolve toward something like one of the 'inhuman killing machines' in that other Kurt Russell movie 'Soldiers', then the real Sam Carter would have died.

          Sam Carter is on SG-1, a special operations team. SG-1 is not Black Ops. SG-1 is not an assassination team. SG-1 is a first contact and exploration team. Their mission is to meet new civilizations and to establish relations... to hopefully assist in the protection of Earth with both new technologies and new alliances.

          Sam Carter joined the Air Force with the original goal of becoming an astronaut. She put her heart into becoming a good soldier, but she would never volunteer for the Black Ops career track. And that's OK. Most soldier don't opt for Black Ops. Most soldiers are not hard-hearted killing machines. Most soldier have heart and kill because it's what they are ordered to do, or forced to do.



          Originally posted by MajorSam
          Anyways, about a month ago, right after I'd seen Gemini, I had the good fortune to talk to Amanda. I told her about the wonderful response of people saying how she was brilliant in it, and she was SOOO grateful. She was just going on and on about how happy she is that people liked it, seeing as it was the hardest episode she's ever had to do, and that she was so happy she was able to hear about it I actually didn't know about thsi thread then, but next time I speak with her i'm DEFINATELY telling her about now that it's aired in the US even MORE people have been once again blown away by her
          Please send her my best wishes!

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          Last edited by astrogeologist; 22 January 2005, 10:26 AM.

          Comment


            Gemini spoilers below....
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            Originally posted by Skydiver
            sam knows just what RC is capable of....and sam is pissed.
            And I am SOOO looking forward to the writers creating some great storyline with that!
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            Comment


              MF Thanks for the info re rep blocks.
              I'm now wondering if I should go back to the start of the thread and award rep to every post?

              I have just read astrogeologist's "A Beautiful Mind" and can recommend it without hesitation. A very intelligent and thoughtful work of art. Thanks astrogeologist!

              Chopingal - yup Tesco is what we call a supermarket. I won't go through the saga of my attempt at online tesco shopping. Suffice to say I have just returned from the "live" shopping experience where I had to queue longer than it took to shop! Is nothing straighforward anymore?

              I have just skimmed the posts this evening to avoid the Gemini comments. So not got too much to respond to!

              I noticed today I can preorder vol 38 from HMV at £16.50. It comes out the end of Feb. I assume the boxset won't make it out until feb 2006!!

              Sam's clothing - I always liked Sam's season 1-6 clothing. I think the production chaps are probably under pressure from MGM and/or Sci Fi to "sex" the characters up a bit. It seemed to happen in STTNG too - to the females - they all got more makeup glamourous hairstyles more stylish outfits and thinner!! If these so called Guru's managed to look beyond what they can see, they would see the truth - Stargate is pure genius and the characters have far too much inner appeal and natural beauty to be enhanced by the trifles of clothing. All of SG1 look great in their combat gear and their 1 to 6 casuals seemed to reflect their personalities perfectly!!

              Take Sam in Chimera (evening dress aside) I though she looked most Sam-Like in her denim skirt and white tank top. Least like Sam in the coffee shop. Astrogeologist and myself had an exchange on this lots of posts ago and astrogeologist came up with some very good positive comments about Sam's "new" look which I had to agree with and which I am trying to bear in mind when I next see Sam's new look. Though as you can tell I still err on preferring the 1 to 6 look from a personal point of view. After astrogeologists comments though I'm very much less peeved about it than I was!!
              As for the tank tops at the SGC I haven't seen them yet!!

              Comment


                Originally posted by Major Fischer
                Are they Sam ... given that this is a show where one of their primary writers/directors talks about US air force headgear looking like macdonalds hats, I suspect it's a lost cause.
                Whoa, the last line of your very good critique kinda says it all! You could make the same argument on the other side too. Having Teal'c bulge his ever expanding muscles in his own tank tops really turned me off. It became more of a distraction because it wasn't true to the character that I had come to know (and respect). Likewise, for Sam. Please, let her be true to the role model she has portrayed so well - don't try to sell her to a whole new audience. It's not fair to AT either because, especially with the female characters, this kind of out-of-place costuming just leads to really inappropriate and leering remarks at other threads and boards.

                Unfortunately, sex and sex appeal sells and the almighty dollar is often the bottom line. I was hoping TPTB would not have gone down that road. They should have learned their lesson from Anise's quick demise. Here was a professional actor who would have been much more believable if she had been wearing some regular clothes. No, I'm not a prude, but good taste should prevail even in outer space.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Major Fischer
                  In this case, a rep block refers to a Reputation Block, those little green (or red if you've been bad ) blocks under your location. The forum allows other posters give you reputation points for good or bad posts on the forum by clicking on the scales in the corner of your post. The more reputation someone has, and the longer they have been around, the more reputation they can give.

                  For ever hundred points you get, up until about 500, you get a new block. After that, it gets progressively harder. The upper limit is 11 blocks. Sometimes it's called Green Jello, or in the case of the harder blocks to get, radioactive or naquadah enhanced jello.
                  Why, thank you MF! I'll have to start adding some jello to all of you here Although, most of you seem to be awash in jello already - very impressive.

                  Except, er, one more question: on this Sam Carter thread, shouldn't our jello be blue and not green?!

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ChopinGal
                    Except, er, one more question: on this Sam Carter thread, shouldn't our jello be blue and not green?!
                    LOL - YES! Where are the blue jello blocks?
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                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Major Fischer
                      Are they Sam...

                      Let me divide this up into two sections.

                      The Tank Tops

                      Sam is a Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Air Force, a conservative institution if there ever was one, she is also a graduate of the US Air Force Academy, and the daughter of an Air Force general. Uniforms are very important to the institution and I have difficulty believing that a Lieutenant Colonel, a well respected unit commander in her early forties, would wear a tank top around a base within the Continental United States (CONUS). CONUS bases are very strict and officers are expected to abide by uniform requirements. To quote from the Air Force Officer's Guide:

                      "Although all Air Force personnel must maintain a high standard of dress and appearance, officers in particular whose manner of dress and personal appearance provide a visual example for enlisted personnel, must wear the uniform in a manner that emphasizes pride and must keep their personal appearance above reproach."

                      There are examples of wearing uniforms without the jacket. They usually involve war zones or dirty work. Anyone seen Sam working on a greezy MALP engine lately?

                      The Teenage Wear

                      The shinny pleather jacket (on a covert ops bust mind you!), the pink puffy jacket, the midrift baring shirt. These are not things that one wears to avoid drawing attention to oneself. They are not things that are even age appropriate for Sam, and I seriously question if they are even character appropriate for her.
                      That's what I thought--but you said it better than I would have. I don't think she has to look dowdy off duty--in fact I thought some of her season 1-6 clothes could have been more flattering-- but the clothes should fit with the character we know. I doubt Sam has much time or inclination to worry about fashion. she practically lives at the SGC. A leather jacket while motorcycle riding--ok. The clothes you describe--no. As I recall someone vividly described that leather outfit as "club clothes." On the ship in New Order I could deal with the tank top--it might have been hot working. She could have taken off her jacket. Not on an ordinary day on the base. She's at *work* after all. Could you just see Daniel suddenly hanging around in, I don't know, cut offs? Sure he'd probably look good--but would *Daniel* dress that way?

                      I must say, though, AT carries it all off with dignity. Must be getting tougher all the time.
                      Last edited by jckfan55; 22 January 2005, 12:30 PM. Reason: addendum

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by ChopinGal

                        Unfortunately, sex and sex appeal sells and the almighty dollar is often the bottom line. I was hoping TPTB would not have gone down that road. They should have learned their lesson from Anise's quick demise. Here was a professional actor who would have been much more believable if she had been wearing some regular clothes. No, I'm not a prude, but good taste should prevail even in outer space.
                        Unfortunately, good taste has less to do with SG-1's wardrobe changes than the shows steadily increasing 18-45 male viewing demographic. Are many (any?) of the male fans complaining about the "new uniforms?"

                        Since we're talking SF women, sex and clothes, I just got back from the local Chapters bookstore. There are veeery few tastefully clad females gracing the covers of SF/fantasy books. What bugs the blue blazin' daylights out of me is that these female characters are almost never, in the actual story, dressed like the sex kittens on the book covers. It's just a psychological trick: promise them sex and they'll buy the book. And so it goes with Stargate SG-1 (and Teyla in Atlantis); the characters don't need to act provacatively, they just have to dress the part.
                        Gracie

                        A Cherokee elder sitting with his grandchildren told them,
                        "In every life there is a terrible fight – a fight between two wolves.
                        One is evil: he is fear, anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity,
                        resentment, and deceit. The other is good: joy, serenity, humility,
                        confidence, generosity, truth, gentleness, and compassion."
                        A child asked, "Grandfather, which wolf will win?"
                        The elder looked the child in the eye. "The one you feed."


                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess

                          Since we're talking SF women, sex and clothes, I just got back from the local Chapters bookstore. There are veeery few tastefully clad females gracing the covers of SF/fantasy books. What bugs the blue blazin' daylights out of me is that these female characters are almost never, in the actual story, dressed like the sex kittens on the book covers. It's just a psychological trick: promise them sex and they'll buy the book. And so it goes with Stargate SG-1 (and Teyla in Atlantis); the characters don't need to act provacatively, they just have to dress the part.
                          You are so right about the book covers. I doubt the artists ever have a clue about the story & the publishers probably want it that way.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Tok'Ra Hostess
                            Since we're talking SF women, sex and clothes, I just got back from the local Chapters bookstore. There are veeery few tastefully clad females gracing the covers of SF/fantasy books.
                            One of my favorite instances of this was a Darkover novel (a series with decidedly anti-male tendencies in some of it's books), which had a woman dressed in a skimpy bakini like outfit.

                            For those of you unfamiliar with Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover, it's based on a world that hits a balmy high of 2 C or 35F at midsummer.


                            Comment


                              When it comes to Sam's clothes... I don't see any problems with what she's worn on the show so far - but I'm pretty sure that's because

                              1. Sam doesn't have to wear a bodysuit/catsuit like they make one of the female cast wear on each Star Trek show. Although I like the actress Jeri Ryan, I was offended every single time I saw the character Seven of Nine (mad eme wince and grimace every time). The current outfits for T'Pol aren't quite as bad... but it's a close call! So, as far as SG-1, I've always been grateful that most of the time, Sam is wearing standard issue BDU's - they aren't even specially cut to show off the female figure.

                              2. They haven't dressed Sam like any of the 'alien females'... such as Anise... and all scifi shows seem to feel the need to do this to female leads... whether they are playing 'good' or 'evil' roles.

                              3. Taken over the lifetime of the show, Carter has been in standard BDU's more than 90-95% of the time... so some other clothes in the last couple of seasons has actually been fun.

                              4. Jack O'Neill sets quite a bit of that 'casual tone'. He's THE facility General now - and he still walks around in BDU's - and they often look sloppy. But it's his tone, that's the way he is. So, the black tank tops don't seem out of place to me at all. And Daniel and Teal'c are walking around in the tank tops too - not just Carter.

                              5. Carter's personal clothes... are up to personal taste - hers. I've actually enjoyed seeing Carter in female, off-duty clothes... the leather cycling jacket... blue jeans.. a little midriff is OK too. Showing a woman as a woman should be OK. And I'm glad that Sam's not dressing as a middle-aged matron.

                              6. Again, my reactions are biased by the 30+ years that I've spent watching and reading science fiction. Stargate is pretty rare in how it has treated the character of Sam Carter - and that includes her attire.
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                                Originally posted by astrogeologist
                                1. Sam doesn't have to wear a bodysuit/catsuit like they make one of the female cast wear on each Star Trek show. Although I like the actress Jeri Ryan, I was offended every single time I saw the character Seven of Nine (mad eme wince and grimace every time). The current outfits for T'Pol aren't quite as bad... but it's a close call! So, as far as SG-1, I've always been grateful that most of the time, Sam is wearing standard issue BDU's - they aren't even specially cut to show off the female figure.

                                2. They haven't dressed Sam like any of the 'alien females'... such as Anise... and all scifi shows seem to feel the need to do this to female leads... whether they are playing 'good' or 'evil' roles.

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                                6. Again, my reactions are biased by the 30+ years that I've spent watching and reading science fiction. Stargate is pretty rare in how it has treated the character of Sam Carter - and that includes her attire.
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                                You're so right! I love that for the most part, SG1 hasn't resorted to the Star Trek costume approach. (which couldn't have been comfortable for the male actors either) I too, have been reading and watching sci fi for over 30 years, and it's nice to finally have a female character who acts and dresses like we actually might.

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